Hastestacking Retribution paladin.

[Lark]

As an aside, people seem to have the misconception that any given stat other than STR can be 1 for 1 converted to STR within the confines of non-gemming. In reality, the game doesn't really work this way. A stat split actually increases the budget of the item, allowing a larger pool of numbers to be generated, within the confines of the existing budgeting system.

Items with just STR and STA would actually end up granting less DPS than str/sta/crit/haste. This doesn't really change the rather messy load of STA on a number of plate items, but the system doesn't really let you translate haste 1 to 1 to crit or to str if those stats are already present.

Then again, complaining about itemization in general is a sign of someone with rather limited intelligence, so it's a bit of a silly point anyway.

Also I baffled as to how this thread went to three pages.

[Skulldancer]

Also I baffled as to how this thread went to three pages.

theres always one person per thread who gets "baffled". MMO-Champion forums itself should baffle you. Its funny the same questions can be asked in elitest jerks and no one cares.

[Badpaladin]

Haste scales linearly with respect to swing speed, but swing speed does not increase linearly with respect to fight length. Therefore, haste does not scale linearly with respect to fight length, and that's why it's such an iffy stat for a single-target. To get an extra swing:

@3.0s swing timer

10s -> .5s swing timer increase needed
15s -> .5s swing timer increase needed
20s -> .2s swing timer increase needed
25s -> .3s swing timer increase needed
30s -> .3s swing timer increase needed

And it varies even more with different swing speeds. You simply just can't accept it as a reliable stat. Intuitively, yes, more melee swings = more TaJ procs. However, more crit = more TaJ procs as well, since RV procs a mote. The difference is, you can rely on crit being more reliable on a fight-per-fight bases when determining the amount of motes you get. Furthermore, haste is a horrible burst stat. The fights that actually matter in ICC(PP hard mode, Sindragosa hard mode, LK hard mode) all have key parts of the fight involving burst damage. Simply put, you're going to crit more often than getting an extra melee swing/40% chance at divine storm when you're attacking a target for less than 30s.

As for multiple targets, it's also completely unreliable. You could get an extra swing in during the window of time you're hitting more than one target, or you could not. You can guarantee the same crit chance on those extra targets.

Again, gearing for haste at the expense of crit is stupid. And seriously, the only reason why "haste gets so much better with gear we can't attain" is because there's a crit cap. We aren't going to be hitting the crit cap in ICC nor Ruby Sanctum gear.

[Ronark]

And seriously, the only reason why "haste gets so much better with gear we can't attain" is because there's a crit cap. We aren't going to be hitting the crit cap in ICC nor Ruby Sanctum gear.

To add on to this, Crit starts to see some hefty DR when stacked past around the 50% or so mark, which is easily obtainable if you follow the Leather BiS set list.

[Badpaladin]

To add on to this, Crit starts to see some hefty DR when stacked past around the 50% or so mark, which is easily obtainable if you follow the Leather BiS set list.

I wouldn't call HoW scaling hefty enough to devalue crit very much.

[Ronark]

I wouldn't call HoW scaling hefty enough to devalue crit very much.

HoW and Judgement scaling. But on a per-point basis at that much crit, you are better off gemming straight STR, even in yellow +4 STR bonus slots.

[bw13187]

i have over 593 haste http://www.wow-heroes.com/index.php?...me=Skulldancer.... i have more haste ret than alot of holy pallys. Is this too much?

you dont have more haste than any holy pally that doesn't suck complete dick

[Nillo]

1) You simply just can't accept it as a reliable stat.
2)Intuitively, yes, more melee swings = more TaJ procs. However, more crit = more TaJ procs as well, since RV procs a mote. The difference is, you can rely on crit being more reliable on a fight-per-fight bases when determining the amount of motes you get.
3)Furthermore, haste is a horrible burst stat.Simply put, you're going to crit more often than getting an extra melee swing/40% chance at divine storm when you're attacking a target for less than 30s.

4) As for multiple targets, it's also completely unreliable. You could get an extra swing in during the window of time you're hitting more than one target, or you could not. You can guarantee the same crit chance on those extra targets.

5) Again, gearing for haste at the expense of crit is stupid. And seriously, the only reason why "haste gets so much better with gear we can't attain" is because there's a crit cap.

1) And what makes you think, that fight length is a reliable limit? A fight coul last say 10.25225 seconds or 9.3612353 seconds so you're examples will always be off ALWAYS.
2) Absolutely not, because the number of RV procs you get is a lot lower, than the number of white hits and SoV hits combined you gained from haste and that is for any given amount of time.
3) So can you give any reason why you think crit is any more reliable than haste? It's not and just to boot you with some horrible examples (like you did before):
Fight length = 5.999 seconds ; swing timer = 3.00 seconds
Now if we say CS had 5 sec; DS 5 sec and Judgement 10 sec cd you can expect to get only 1 ds and 1 cs in that amount of time (0 judgements, because we're always rounding down like you did)
=> you need 1 haste rating to get an extra swing
=> you only do a total of 6 attacks (1 white + 1cs + 1ds + 3 seals) => you need an additional amount of 16.66% crit to get an extra crit, that won't even be close to the extra damage you gain from 1 white swing. (you'd need 2 => 33.33% more crit needed)
You also have to note, that RV completely sux for fights that only last a few seconds, because you might not even get 1 tick of it devalueing crit even more.

4) So with the same example as 3), but with 2 targets and using SoC:
=> you still need 1 haste for an extra swing resulting in a White hit + 2 seal hits.
=> you go a total of 9 attacks (1 white + 1 cs + 1 ds + 6 seals) => still 11.11% crit needed for 1 extra crit (2/3 of what you had before) and still the damage you gain from an extra crit will not even be close to an extra white hit (you'd need 3 => 33.33% more crit)

And what do we see from 3 and 4? Even if you had 1000 haste (999 of it would be wasted) you would still gain more dps, than by having 1000 crit, because some 20%ish crit will not be enough to get the same amount of damage 1 extra white swing gets you.

5) Wait what? You're even contradicting yourself. As you said there is no real crit cap (the HoW crit cap is pretty pointless) so the crit cap can't be the reason why haste will outscale crit. As Ronark stated it's more due to the fact, that our BiS list has a lot of leather items, that immensly increase the amount of crit we have, which makes haste a lot more attractive in comparison.

[Rlyskilled]

What's goin' on in this thread?

Hypothetical maths and haste arguments. Most excellent.

Question.
What bear is best? If you get to a point in gearing when gemming strength/crit would be a loss, why not gem pure strength instead of strength/haste?

Also to the poster above: What fight lasts 10 seconds? You're trying to argue a silly time frame based on what looks to me like killing trash mobs to make haste look better. Grats on haste gems if it gets you extra deeps on trash I guess.
If your post was sarcasm, disregard me.

[Boko_Hitan]

one can wonder, what else to add here

[Requital]

1) And what makes you think, that fight length is a reliable limit? A fight coul last say 10.25225 seconds or 9.3612353 seconds so you're examples will always be off ALWAYS.
2) Absolutely not, because the number of RV procs you get is a lot lower, than the number of white hits and SoV hits combined you gained from haste and that is for any given amount of time.
3) So can you give any reason why you think crit is any more reliable than haste? It's not and just to boot you with some horrible examples (like you did before):
Fight length = 5.999 seconds ; swing timer = 3.00 seconds
Now if we say CS had 5 sec; DS 5 sec and Judgement 10 sec cd you can expect to get only 1 ds and 1 cs in that amount of time (0 judgements, because we're always rounding down like you did)
=> you need 1 haste rating to get an extra swing
=> you only do a total of 6 attacks (1 white + 1cs + 1ds + 3 seals) => you need an additional amount of 16.66% crit to get an extra crit, that won't even be close to the extra damage you gain from 1 white swing. (you'd need 2 => 33.33% more crit needed)
You also have to note, that RV completely sux for fights that only last a few seconds, because you might not even get 1 tick of it devalueing crit even more.

4) So with the same example as 3), but with 2 targets and using SoC:
=> you still need 1 haste for an extra swing resulting in a White hit + 2 seal hits.
=> you go a total of 9 attacks (1 white + 1 cs + 1 ds + 6 seals) => still 11.11% crit needed for 1 extra crit (2/3 of what you had before) and still the damage you gain from an extra crit will not even be close to an extra white hit (you'd need 3 => 33.33% more crit)

And what do we see from 3 and 4? Even if you had 1000 haste (999 of it would be wasted) you would still gain more dps, than by having 1000 crit, because some 20%ish crit will not be enough to get the same amount of damage 1 extra white swing gets you.

5) Wait what? You're even contradicting yourself. As you said there is no real crit cap (the HoW crit cap is pretty pointless) so the crit cap can't be the reason why haste will outscale crit. As Ronark stated it's more due to the fact, that our BiS list has a lot of leather items, that immensly increase the amount of crit we have, which makes haste a lot more attractive in comparison.

Crit > Haste in game find one Ret that is gemming haste and out dpsing anyone else, At no point and time will Haste ever surpass Crit if it did it would have a higher value and there is so much wrong in your post I can't even begin to try and correct it. But I'll just let you find this person or you can waste your gold and test it yourself.

[Rlyskilled]

Crit > Haste in game find one Ret that is gemming haste and out dpsing anyone else, At no point and time will Haste ever surpass Crit if it did it would have a higher value and there is so much wrong in your post I can't even begin to try and correct it. But I'll just let you find this person or you can waste your gold and test it yourself.

I could probably find a stupid ret paladin that miraculously convinced his guild to give him Shadowmourne first and is gemming for haste, and because of that orange in his mainhand all he says and does is now gospel.

Yesssssss.

[Wonderboy]

Im not really sure what this thread is about, stick to your BiS gear lists and then ask this question: Do you have Shadowmourne + Tiny abom in a jar?

Yes - Gem Str+Haste in yellow slots with decent bonus stats, otherwise gem Str + 1 nightmare tear to meet meta. Redo cloak enchant to haste.

No - Gem Str+Crit in yellow slots with decent bonus stats (>3+ Str), otherwise gem strength + 1 nightmare tear to meet meta.

Stop making simple stat weightings complicated!

[Rlyskilled]

Im not really sure what this thread is about, stick to your BiS gear lists and then ask this question: Do you have Shadowmourne + Tiny abom in a jar?

Yes - Gem Str+Haste in yellow slots with decent bonus stats, otherwise gem Str + 1 nightmare tear to meet meta. Redo cloak enchant to haste.

No - Gem Str+Crit in yellow slots with decent bonus stats (>3+ Str), otherwise gem strength + 1 nightmare tear to meet meta.

Stop making simple stat weightings complicated!

I swapped my Bryntroll with Shadowmourne (I have TaJ already), here are the simple stat weightings I got:


So no. Having just TaJ and Shadowmourne won't push haste over crit. It'll push them closer together, but crit still comes out on top. Haste and Agility are 0.01 apart for my gear setup with the weapon.

Would you gem for agility with Shadowmourne?

[Wonderboy]

I swapped my Bryntroll with Shadowmourne (I have TaJ already), here are the simple stat weightings I got:


So no. Having just TaJ and Shadowmourne won't push haste over crit. It'll push them closer together, but crit still comes out on top.
Almost doesn't count.

Rawr doesn't model the TaJ proc correctly (In fact i've noticed the latest Rawr release is fubar for rets) . Take into consideration that crit gets deminishing returns over about 50% and the fact your rolling in the stuff anyway haste becomes far more attractive than crit with shadowmourne and TaJ.

[Rlyskilled]

Rawr doesn't model the TaJ proc correctly (In fact i've noticed the latest Rawr release is fubar for rets) . Take into consideration that crit gets deminishing returns over about 50% and the fact your rolling in the stuff anyway haste becomes far more attractive than crit with shadowmourne and TaJ.

1. Right click on the TaJ ( Make sure it's the right item level )
2. Edit
3. On the right side there is a section that says Special Effects
4. Click Edit
5. Change Trigger from Melee hit to Physical Hit
6. Change chance to 100%
7. Scroll to Equipment Effects
8. Change % Weapon Swing to .75% ( This is only changed to make up for the extra motes not being counted, You can play around with this value since you can find a good number to show your DPS, You want Rawr to show it as BiS Trinket but it shouldn't be towering over everything .75 is kinda high but it's dead on for my patchwerk style DPS. )

Yeah I know Rawr is hard and stuff

Ps: Like I (and many) have said before, if you have so much crit it's a detriment to gem more, pure strength is better than str/haste. Haste will never be "far more attractive" than crit. At least, not in this expansion.

[Wonderboy]

Yeah I know Rawr is hard and stuff

So you're telling me your chart from which you have based an assumption is constructed from numbers you have grasped from the air because they "seem" right. Rawr is useful but it's not something you should just look at and believe without any consideration and it is certainly no substitute for common sense.

[Rlyskilled]

So you're telling me your chart from which you have based an assumption is constructed from numbers you have grasped from the air because they "seem" right. Rawr is useful but it's not something you should just look at and believe without any consideration and it is certainly no substitute for common sense.

Common sense, huh? Now I feel like I'm just being trolled. I'm aware that Rawr doesn't model TaJ correctly, so I quoted a fix made by a ret that knows a hell of a lot more about the math behind our class than I do. The fix works.

Please back up what you have said about your super attractive haste and relate it to common sense. A "well it's just better" or "I've seen other people do it so it must be right" reply won't do this time.

[Boko_Hitan]

So you're telling me your chart from which you have based an assumption is constructed from numbers you have grasped from the air because they "seem" right. Rawr is useful but it's not something you should just look at and believe without any consideration and it is certainly no substitute for common sense.

for comon sense it would be simplier to check on what ablities are affected by hast, by crit, and by strength.
haste affects only autoattack and, therefore, sealprocs.
crit affects everything except exorcism( in ICC) and SoV dot component.
strength affects literally EVERYTHING.
use common sense.
...
profit!

at least for me, as a complete math fail i am.

[Nillo]

1) What bear is best? If you get to a point in gearing when gemming strength/crit would be a loss, why not gem pure strength instead of strength/haste?

2) Also to the poster above: What fight lasts 10 seconds? You're trying to argue a silly time frame based on what looks to me like killing trash mobs to make haste look better. Grats on haste gems if it gets you extra deeps on trash I guess.

1) Wait so if I sim my gear or look it up in Rawr and it tells me gemming for Haste/Str is a 1 DPS gain over Str and another 1 DPS gain over crit you suggest I go for STR? I can't see any reason, why I should trust sims and Rawr less than your assumptions, that haste is useless !_!.
2) Who said that a fight lasts 10 seconds? I just wanted to throw out a terribad example to top that of the one I quoted. Yes ofc fights usually last longer,but even if you take a more realistic amount of say 15-30 seconds (Valkyrs and Oozes) neither Str (which will give an insignificant boost to your attacks) nor crit (which gives an incredibly low chance to get an extra crit) nor haste (which gives an incredibly low chance to get an extra attack) have any advantage over the other stats.

1) At no point and time will Haste ever surpass Crit if it did it would have a higher value
2) and there is so much wrong in your post I can't even begin to try and correct it.
3) But I'll just let you find this person or you can waste your gold and test it yourself.

1) And where is it written in stone, that Crit does always have a higher value than haste ? Seeing, that we already enchant for haste over agi on cloak is enough of a reason, that they're already extremely close.
2) So what was less wrong about the one I quoted? I do know that my examples were terribly off, but so were his. I just think you're both in the same boat assuming, that haste is bad , because you regard the time length as a fixed value or believe, that crit is in any way more reliable than haste !_!_!.
3) You should know as well, that there is absolutely no way, that one could make a valid sample, by regemming to haste and trying if his/her dps went up - any RNG will have a much larger impact on the damage done, than regemming and hitting a target dummy fully raid buffed for an exact amount of time is simply impossible.