Hastestacking Retribution paladin.

[Prentice]

I still theorize that this will most likely happen in Cataclysm, but it depends on how our combat system is changed up again.

If the cooldown timers of our abilities exist in Cat as they do now, ret DPS might be ungodly OP. Every other melee DPS spec(minus Enhancement) has a limited resource generation mechanic whereas ret "starts with a full rage bar". I am already a likely candidate for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from the spamming I do now. Reduce the length of the GCD and the spam will only get worse. Might be time for me to pick up a G15 so I can just press and hold buttons instead of spamming them.

EDIT: I didn't post it at the time, but the gap closing calculations that you have linked in your sig aren't really accurate. Unless I missed it, they fail to factor in the 8 yds of 100% speed the target would be traveling assuming you weren't retarded and actually judged JoJ.

[Ronark]

If the cooldown timers of our abilities exist in Cat as they do now, ret DPS might be ungodly OP. Every other melee DPS spec(minus Enhancement) has a limited resource generation mechanic whereas ret "starts with a full rage bar". I am already a likely candidate for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from the spamming I do now. Reduce the length of the GCD and the spam will only get worse. Might be time for me to pick up a G15 so I can just press and hold buttons instead of spamming them.

Blizzard has stated that GCDs are our resource system, and sinc haste "makes you do things faster", I bet haste will affect the GCD in on way or another so it is benefual to us and Shaman.

If not on all abilities, then maybe only on Judgement? Again, it highly depends on how our Battle system is reworked.

EDIT: I didn't post it at the time, but the gap closing calculations that you have linked in your sig aren't really accurate. Unless I missed it, they fail to factor in the 8 yds of 100% speed the target would be traveling assuming you weren't retarded and actually judged JoJ.

"Starting out of 20 yards". You can't judge Justice out of 20 yards. Also, to keep it consistent, it is without JoJ at all (because otherwise you have to account fot the inevitable snare that will be placed on you).

[Vanderhuge]

Are you two suggesting that Rets need to be capable of running a marathon in order to be successful in PVP?

[Prentice]

"Starting out of 20 yards". You can't judge Justice out of 20 yards. Also, to keep it consistent, it is without JoJ at all (because otherwise you have to account fot the inevitable snare that will be placed on you).

I know this. That's why I stated the 8 yds of JoJ slowdown. I don't doubt the accuracy of these numbers in this simplistic glass house ideal. I am simply stating that every non-retarded paladin, regardless of spec, will be spamming JoJ as they approach the 8yd hit box of their fleeing target.

Are you two suggesting that Rets need to be capable of running a marathon in order to be successful in PVP?

Don't we do that already??

[Ronark]

I know this. That's why I stated the 8 yds of JoJ slowdown. I don't doubt the accuracy of these numbers in this simplistic glass house ideal. I am simply stating that every non-retarded paladin, regardless of spec, will be spamming JoJ as they approach the 8yd hit box of their fleeing target.

If you add JoJ into the equation, then you also have to add Frost shock, Hamstring, Desecrate, Chains of Ice, Daze, Concussion shot, Wing clip, Frost trap, Frostbolt...

Again, this is for simplicity's sake for if we could only run. For all I can you could have made a target switch and not have JoJ up on the target, and have it miss or have the effect cleansed or have it "absorbed" by AMS.

[DaGhostDS]

Might be time for me to pick up a G15 so I can just press and hold buttons instead of spamming them.

most of G15 keyboard program and utilities are considered botting by blizzard :-\
a few people got banned for it

[Ronark]

most of G15 keyboard program and utilities are considered botting by blizzard :-\
a few people got banned for it

I'd rather not be Bluedeep and macro my T10 2pc procs, thanks.

[Swampmoose]

Back to this exciting topic of Rawr says x about haste, y about crit. I went home and did about 5 minutes of fooling around on rawr and made some fantastic discoveries. Of course I downloaded the most recent, sure to be most accurate version. I uploaded my armory which includes Tiny Abom and SM which seems to be somewhat important for the haste > crit argument. Someone also stated this version correctly models Tiny Abom and SM was corrected a couple patches ago I think so we should be good to go!

After first loading and making no changes to any settings, Haste was ahead of crit by a little bit! I immediately logged on and regemmed all my yellow sockets. Then I thought, hmm, I better check the settings. I added all of the proper buffs that were left off, namely windfury, improved totems, and crap, crit was better again.

Then I decided to check the rotation. The base rotation when it loaded was CS > HoW > DS > Judgement...that's not right! I fooled around with that for a minute or two until I found the best combo which was Judgement > DS > CS > Conc > HoW > Exo and put me around 16,200dps. Crit stayed ahead but they were still close.

I realized the time was set to 5 minutes. So I changed it to 7 minutes. Haste skyrocketed above crit and was nearing Strength! WTF! I set it to 1 minute, haste went to below spellpower. That can't be right. I put it to 4 minutes, it looked somewhat normal here, Crit > Agi > Haste with haste and agi being almost similar. I put it to 3 minutes, haste way back up above crit! Ahh!!

I finally put it on the proper rotation, checked every correct buff that I get during regular raids, set it to 60 minutes to hopefully eliminate any spikes, set to undead, then to humanoid to make sure there weren't drastic changes, and then checked the stat values.

Str > Crit > Agi > Haste with Agi being about .05 or so greater than haste.

So what does this tell us? It means we should carry around enough orange gems to regem for every fight to match what rawr tells you when you plug in the amount of time you think that fight is going to last. Don't slip up on your priorities though or you will have gemmed incorrectly!

Sorry I couldn't provide screenshots for all of the ridiculously drastic variations in stat values I could come up with by making minor changes but I had to get back to work Sad face.

Next on my list of things to try is to swap out 1 item with haste with one that has crit in it's place to see if I can create more absurd variations in stat values in this ever so reliable program.

[Deleted]

swampmoose, the numbers i posted where with the BiS all items list from EJ. your mileage may vary.

[Swampmoose]

swampmoose, the numbers i posted where with the BiS all items list from EJ. your mileage may vary.

I am 4 items off from that list. The armory or BiS list would have little effect on the outcome.

[Prentice]

To accurately model SM for the haste test, you would have to edit the default settings that Rawr is using for that weapon. As I understand it, most people are using a /cancelaura addon for the strength buff to increase the number of damage procs. The stacking and release of these procs is certainly directly affected by haste and I would think that it would have a significant impact on any Rawr results that you may have been looking for.

[Ronark]

EJ recommends using the default "version" of Shadowmourne in the newer released because the model is "close enough".

[Badpaladin]

Or use Bellator's Spreadsheet, which trumps RAWR in accuracy.

[Nillo]

I finally put it on the proper rotation, checked every correct buff that I get during regular raids, set it to 60 minutes to hopefully eliminate any spikes, set to undead, then to humanoid to make sure there weren't drastic changes, and then checked the stat values.

Str > Crit > Agi > Haste with Agi being about .05 or so greater than haste.

1) So what does this tell us? It means we should carry around enough orange gems to regem for every fight to match what rawr tells you when you plug in the amount of time you think that fight is going to last. Don't slip up on your priorities though or you will have gemmed incorrectly!

1) I guess you'll get the best numbers if the fight length is really set to an incredibly long time, as this will wash out any randomness with fight length.

2) Not that unthinkable to make haste better than crit with lots of agi gear and a low lvl of crit then is it? :P

This idea piqued my interest enough to dig out rawr. With my gear (4 set 264, heroic bryn'troll, Tiny Abomb) and full buffs rawr says 11,251 DPS.

Swapping my Whispering Fanged Skull (251) for the emblem trinket, and resocketing entirely for Haste, rawr's dps dropped to 10,770 DPS. So its not good on paper, did have an awesome 1.98s swing speed with a 2hander though.

Yes because stacking haste is going to reduce the value of haste and you're going to fuck up your dps by doing that !_!

[Swampmoose]

1) I guess you'll get the best numbers if the fight length is really set to an incredibly long time, as this will wash out any randomness with fight length.

2) Not that unthinkable to make haste better than crit with lots of agi gear and a low lvl of crit then is it? :P

Yes because stacking haste is going to reduce the value of haste and you're going to fuck up your dps by doing that !_!

Lots of agi gear with low levels of crit is an oxymoron. Lots of agi = lots of crit so I'm not sure what you are getting at there. If you were referring to the numbers I found, you missed the point.

Point of my little 5 minute study was that you can swap x, y, z in rawr and create some pretty sporadic variations of stat values and depending on who uses what settings, you get these posts saying "Rawr told me x was better than y" and someone else gets something completely different and they chime in with "No, rawr says y is better." I find that the vast majority of the time, people are not using the same anything in either situation. They open it, pull up an armory, and begin making claims.

You can get some very inaccurate information from it. I have no idea which is truly better than the other, but I do know, and what I'm getting at, is Rawr can be misleading. That's all.

[Nillo]

Lots of agi gear with low levels of crit is an oxymoron. Lots of agi = lots of crit so I'm not sure what you are getting at there.

Eh wanted to say low haste and mixed it up while writing.

[Deleted]

please note that the current TAJ is using the wrong kind of trigger. see http://rawr.codeplex.com/wikipage?ti...ngTitle=Models (note that while this has been said to be fixed, rawr still default used the MeleeHit trigger. both TAJ and SM should be fixed.

[Astray]

1) Sorry, but this is actually wrong:

This is not. Because i didnt say anything about linear or not. plus~

Haste will never outscale Str unless you add an incredible amount of AP

I even wrote that.

while not gaining any haste, which is unthinkable.

Doesnt matter. Look who said that as well~

Haste works like this: Auto hit Damage = Base damage * (1+ Haste*Y) = Base damage + Haste*Base damage*Y (again linear, because adding 100 haste always adds 100*Y damage through extra hits)
[...]
=> Haste is linear

oh, it was you.

[Nillo]

This is not. Because i didnt say anything about linear or not. plus~

Uhm wait

This is because str is a scalar while arp and haste are %.

And what's this?
You certainly made it look like haste and Ap affect damage done in a different way, and because of that it would somehow be possible to make haste better than Str. But just take a look at the bolded parts
Point is, that they're both pretty similar in how they affect damage done and because of that it is impossible to get them even close to eachother with obtainable gear. And who cares about fictional ilvl 500 gear with no haste on it anyway?

[Requital]

1) Sorry, but this is actually wrong:
Str works like this : Damage = Base damage + Attackpower * X (linear, because adding 100 AP always adds 100*X damage)
Haste works like this: Auto hit Damage = Base damage * (1+ Haste*Y) = Base damage + Haste*Base damage*Y (again linear, because adding 100 haste always adds 100*Y damage through extra hits)

ArP works like this: EH = Base Health * (1+Armor/Z) <=> Damage = 1/(1+Armor/Z) * Base damage <=> Damage = Base Damage * 1 - Base damage (Armor/Z)(1+Armor/Z) => The (1+X) is no longer a multiplier, but a divisor, that is reduced by ArP (it is not linear: if you go by 0.5 per step it's 1-1/2 = 0.5 (for 0 ArP) ; 1-0.5/1.5 = 0.66 (33% increase with 50% ArP) ; 1-0/1 = 1 (100% increase with 100% ArP) => not linear.

=> Haste is linear, ArP is not => Haste will never outscale Str unless you add an incredible amount of AP, while not gaining any haste, which is unthinkable.


Well maybe there are other reasons like
- Valkyr having more health
- Valkyr bombing the raid after being "killed"
- Hugeass Defiles
But, does any of them hinder you from Auto-Attacking the Valkyr - I wonder.

Yes they do hinder you from attacking the Valks if you stand there with a Defile on you while attacking 3 targets moving towards you then you effectively cut every melee DPS off from Valk damage and they fly over the edge and thats that.

When they fly up after the end after you have taken them to 50% a lot of guilds use Tank and Rets to maintain threat on them. So yes I am busy changing targets to taunt adds that are attacking weaker people.

So yes they all impede standing around auto attacking.