Owlkin Frenzy and Moonglow vs Genesis

[Vespian]

Hey guys,

This is my Druid currently (upgrade to 264 gloves in my bags):
http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...gn=Placeholder

For those that ask, yes I decided to focus on crit more than haste.

Currently I have 1 point in Moonglow and 1 point in Owlkin Frenzy. Recently I've joined my guild as a trial member. A rough 2 months ago I was still a lvl 32 Druid looking for advice about Boomkins in this forum. Qieth has given a fair good deal of tips (your Typhoon topic was very right as well, although I wonder why you never mentioned using Gift of the Wild during movement (T10x2).).

Right now I'm basically being "pulled through" (read: the lack of Boomkins gave me a chance) Hardmode ICC25/10 and the thing I notice above all, is that there's alot! more (forced) movement during nearly all of the hardmode encounters. With more movement I can often not avoid having to cast new dots and often clip them, so I'm wondering how much of a real benefit Owlkin Frenzy gives compared to Genesis. After all, it's only a minor damage increase over the total of a fight (+(0.05*0.10) if you'd get hit the entire fight, without internal gcd's, with a chance of 1-(1-0.05)^x that it actually procs during a fight, where x is the amount of recieved (and counting) hits). I don't seem to need the mana regen (read, 95% mana left on most fights), so perhaps the reduction in pushback would be the only true benefit from it.

Right now I'm contemplating to change my talents to switch out Moonglow and Owlkin Frenzy to Genesis. Any thoughts?

[Deleted]

Lets make a wild scenario: That your dots are 20% of your damage. 5% increase to your dots brings the damage of your dots to 21%, meaning that five talent points in Genesis is a whooping 1% increase in damage. If you do 10.000 DPS, you are looking at another 100 DPS.

The only problem is, our dots isn't 20% of our damage. It's more around the 10%, putting each talent spent in Genesis at a 0,1% damage increase. That is terrible place to put any points. Sure, you can take the point from Moonglow and use it in Genesis, but you wont notice any difference what so ever whether its in moonglow or genesis.

The problem with Owlkin Frenzy is that there is a lot of damage that it doesn't proc from. It would seem that all AOE damage in ICC doesn't activate it, from Festerguts blight to Sindragosa's frost aura. When you are limited to direct hits, standing in fire and very few cone attacks, Owlkin Frenzy is equally useless - although it is slightly more damage per talent point than genesis is.

As for moving, I'm sure you will find that with better knowledge of the encounter, you will find yourself moving less and less. Even if you do move a lot on some parts of a fight, those parts are a relatively small part of the full fight. You might say that there is a lot of movement on Festergut, for example, but what it really is, is 2 seconds of movement every 30 seconds, wait 10 seconds, and then two seconds moving back to your original position. So every 40 seconds, you move 4 seconds, with 36 seconds standing still.

Also, yo: I used to be in Escapism (horde)

[Deleted]

It's funny a thread like this should pop up, as I was literally just discussing this a few minutes ago with a fellow boomkin. Frankly, once we have all the core talents, the remaining choices aren't great. Lets assume you use a cookie cutter moonkin build. Your choices for them last points come down to essentially:

Brambles
Genesis
Owlkin Frenzy
Gale Winds

with Dreamstate, Moonglow being pretty much useless at this stage in the expansion's progression.

So Brambles will make your trees hit 5% per point harder. 3 minute CD, approximately 60k damage if your trees survive the duration, so you gain 3k damage on your trees per point. Say it's a long fight, you'll get to use your treants twice, so 6k damage per talent point plus whatever you gain from improved thorns.

Genesis was covered by Qieth, equating to a pretty much invisible DPS increase.

Owlkin Frenzy again, doesn't proc off half of the damage in ICC, and the other half will most likely kill you or leave you in no state to use the proc (Instability on Sindragosa).

Gale Winds is mostly a trash talent considering how few fights require hurricane casts.

So where does that leave us? Personally, I've taken 1/5 genesis and 1/3 owlkin frenzy.

[Deleted]

Eh, Force of Nature is more like 25.000-30.000 damage if they fun the full duration. With bloodlust up, they might get increased to, what, 35000-40.000 damage - if they survive the full duration. Assuming that this is without bloodlust, and only one talent in brambles (because one of our spare points are locked in Genesis/Moonglow), the 5% increase is 1250-1500 extra damage each 3 minutes. That hardly speaks highly for brambles either.

I took Gale Winds, rather than Owlkin Frenzy, because the point in Owlkin Frenzy - 50 more DPS with 10.000 DPS at best - is nearly invisible as well. But there are times where I use Typhoon where its damage can be useful (Supressors on Dreamwalker, or Vile Spirits on LK), where I like the extra - although small - damage from Typhoon.

[Deleted]

Eh, Force of Nature is more like 25.000-30.000 damage if they fun the full duration. With bloodlust up, they might get increased to, what, 35000-40.000 damage - if they survive the full duration. Assuming that this is without bloodlust, and only one talent in brambles (because one of our spare points are locked in Genesis/Moonglow), the 5% increase is 1250-1500 extra damage each 3 minutes. That hardly speaks highly for brambles either.

I took Gale Winds, rather than Owlkin Frenzy, because the point in Owlkin Frenzy - 50 more DPS with 10.000 DPS at best - is nearly invisible as well. But there are times where I use Typhoon where its damage can be useful (Supressors on Dreamwalker, or Vile Spirits on LK), where I like the extra - although small - damage from Typhoon.

Ah yeah, forgot about Typhoon being increased too. I think it all boils down to personal preference at this point, don't you? Either you get a small increase across the board, a slightly larger increase at one point and nothing at another, or a proc based damage increase. All the improvements at this point are tiny.

[Vespian]

Aye. I fully realize the near-futility of Genesis. But Genesis is consistently crap, in contrary to Owlkin Frenzy which simply isn't there, or crap.

Obviously, getting used to hardmodes is going to reduce my movement, that's absoutely a fact. I've started getting more used to the tactics already. That doesn't take away the fact that additional movement is required due to:
More fire @ Marrowgar (could be just me)
Ghosts @ Deathwhisper (on 25 normal you can take a hit occasionally)
Avoid Mall.Goo @ Festergut
During phase transitions @ PP.

So what you're basically saying is, going from Moonglow to Genesis (1/5) will not gain me any visible increase in dps or damage done (which I don't persé disagree with,but saving mana sure as hell won't make any difference :P)

[Kallume]

That last lingering point is based on preference.

Try OF, if you hear it go off often enough for your liking, then keep it.
If you like to see higher trash numbers, and/or an dps increase on boss fights like Valithria / LK, then Gale Winds.

I, personally, am more than satisfied with OF. There are many encounters in ICC that have aura or volley mechanics. I get at least two procs on said encounters.

[Vespian]

I, personally, am more than satisfied with OF. There are many encounters in ICC that have aura or volley mechanics. I get at least two procs on said encounters.

And as far as I know and have noticed (I currently have 1 point in OF) it rarely procs off those. That's why I'm looking into alternatives. I might do what Qieth did, place some talents in Gale Winds. I'll have to check that out.

Oh and Qieth, I'm sorry, I forgot to reply to the fact that you were on Hellscream once.
I have to admit, I've not been a visitor of this server very long, so I don't really know all the guilds on it. Due to some freak accident, I got in touch with an old friend of mine and I decided to reroll to join his server. He happened to be in Placeholder and he mentioned that PH needed Boomkins, so heck, I leveled my Druid from 32 to ~60, transfered, leveled to 80 and started gearing up.

I've been spending the last 2 months getting closer to "bridging the gap" between ICC normal and Hardmode (mostly still with avg.251 gear). I've been reading up on Boomkins ever since I rerolled, been experimenting with, among others, Typhoon (you know the topic ) and recently got accepted here as a trial instead of a friends rank. I'm not spectacularly impressed with myself yet, but I expect the fights to go better soon. I don't do alot of major failing, although some mistakes sneak in here and there, but my dps is just horrible right now, compared to normal modes. I guess it's all due to getting used to the slightly higher awareness you need for ICC HC. Not to mention that I just feel plain lame, being at the bottom of the damage meter, even though my avg.ilvl is about -10 to -15 compared to the others :P

So in other words, I'm trying to revise myself from time to time, to stay up to date and maximize the potential.

[Deleted]

Aye. I fully realize the near-futility of Genesis. But Genesis is consistently crap, in contrary to Owlkin Frenzy which simply isn't there, or crap.

Obviously, getting used to hardmodes is going to reduce my movement, that's absoutely a fact. I've started getting more used to the tactics already. That doesn't take away the fact that additional movement is required due to:
More fire @ Marrowgar (could be just me)
Ghosts @ Deathwhisper (on 25 normal you can take a hit occasionally)
Avoid Mall.Goo @ Festergut
During phase transitions @ PP.

So what you're basically saying is, going from Moonglow to Genesis (1/5) will not gain me any visible increase in dps or damage done (which I don't persé disagree with,but saving mana sure as hell won't make any difference :P)

In any case, you are talking one point, not several. So whatever you do, it really wont matter.

When it comes to movement on bosses, let me adress the examples you gave here:

Marrowgar: You should be standing inside his hitbox in phase 1, which competely takes you away from harm from the fire. When he's about to do bonestorm, you run out, and only have to move if he whirls over to you.
Deathwhisper: Ghosts take just a few seconds to avoid. They pop after a few seconds anyways.
Festergut: Malable Goo splashes in an 8 yard range. You move for little more than a second, and you're in the clear. Consider as well how rarely a malable goo targets you. At best, it might happen 2-3 times during the entire fight, and that hardly constitutes as "a lot of moving".

Yes, going from Moonglow to Genesis with a single point will give you a 0,1% DPS increase. Its better than having the point in moonglow, but you are not going to notice 0,1% more DPS. We are talking 10 more DPS here, if you are pulling 10.000 DPS normally. If you disagree with this (its pure math though), feel free to share your views :P

And as far as I know and have noticed (I currently have 1 point in OF) it rarely procs off those. That's why I'm looking into alternatives. I might do what Qieth did, place some talents in Gale Winds. I'll have to check that out.

Don't be fooled, the point in Gale Winds is pretty much as useless as it would be in brambles, genesis or Owlkin Frenzy :P

[Vespian]

In any case, you are talking one point, not several. So whatever you do, it really wont matter.

When it comes to movement on bosses, let me adress the examples you gave here:

Marrowgar: You should be standing inside his hitbox in phase 1, which competely takes you away from harm from the fire. When he's about to do bonestorm, you run out, and only have to move if he whirls over to you.

I'm talking about during Bonestorm. Obviously, if I'd not be standing in his hitbox during the normal phase, you could just as well execute me on the spot. During bonestorm the amount of fire seems to have slightly increased compared to normal mode. As I said, that could be my imagination.

Don't be fooled, the point in Gale Winds is pretty much as useless as it would be in brambles, genesis or Owlkin Frenzy :P

Trash dps ftw ? :

[Deleted]

There is just as much fire on heroic than normal. He does a four-way flame wall everytime he stops. I think maybe its just a bit more hectic because you have to dodge flame walls WHILE getting down bonespikes and deal with the extra damage. But even during bonestorm, i'd assume you have the raid spread out, which usually causes him to go from side to side in the room, and you only have to take two steps to avoid fire, or four steps to get away from his whirls if he stops right on you.

Trash DPS is fun. I am getting used to dying to starfall + hurricane aggro :P

[Vespian]

There is just as much fire on heroic than normal. He does a four-way flame wall everytime he stops. I think maybe its just a bit more hectic because you have to dodge flame walls WHILE getting down bonespikes and deal with the extra damage. But even during bonestorm, i'd assume you have the raid spread out, which usually causes him to go from side to side in the room, and you only have to take two steps to avoid fire, or four steps to get away from his whirls if he stops right on you.

Trash DPS is fun. I am getting used to dying to starfall + hurricane aggro :P

Well, I personally thought the issue was with the duration of the fire. Nonetheless, it doesn't really matter. Nothing personal, but as usual you decided to nitpick at certain examples I gave. In fact, this is the second time we stop at Marrowgar and I'm not the least interested in that discussion (again).

You answered my questions quite accurately and basically pretty much according to what I was expecting.

[Cocoe]

Statistics on owlkin frenzy on LK heroic 10man, I got around 5-10 proccs of Owlkin Frenzy during that 15min fight (You dont take any damage after LK is past 10%, so all proccs were during the active kill periode.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...=10510&e=12628
So, with 1 point in Owlkin frenzy I got 8 proccs during our kill and an uptime of 71sek. 71sek in a 15min fight is about 8% uptime.

If I did 10k dps normally, this would "theoretically" give me an extra 120 dps. However, this does not account for when the proccs occur, as they usually occured at good times, times when I didnt have to run... So I believe it was more than 150 dps gain, not too shabby for 1 spare point.

[Kallume]

Statistics on owlkin frenzy on LK heroic 10man, I got around 5-10 proccs of Owlkin Frenzy during that 15min fight (You dont take any damage after LK is past 10%, so all proccs were during the active kill periode.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...=10510&e=12628
So, with 1 point in Owlkin frenzy I got 8 proccs during our kill and an uptime of 71sek. 71sek in a 15min fight is about 8% uptime.

If I did 10k dps normally, this would "theoretically" give me an extra 120 dps. However, this does not account for when the proccs occur, as they usually occured at good times, times when I didnt have to run... So I believe it was more than 150 dps gain, not too shabby for 1 spare point.

LK is probably a bad example of when to have OF. 1/2 in Gale Winds when you Typhoon Vile Spirits in P3 pretty much takes the cake. Even though, you maybe only hit them all for 3k, +15% (1pt) you get 450 more dmg per target. That should out-weight OF by a large margin.