Reasons why PvP equals Arena now

[mtr]

I've got answered in the other thread, like "PvP is not only Arena!". This statement forced me into thinking about what PvP actually is now, and what will it be in Cataclysm.

Now, when we say "that guy is a good PvPer", we actually mean "that guy is good at Arena". Rarely one states that he is an awesome BGer Battlegrounds are actually associated with bunch of afk guys guarding cave on AV, and bunch of pve fellas being oneshotted by 2-3 good geared people being present there.

Seriously, nowadays bgs are for farming honor. And once you've got the honor you wanted, you're out. (Of course, there are always some "of the Horde/Alliance" guys, and they actually belong to 2-3 good geared people one shotting pve fellas )

That being said, I want to ask you, what makes Arena the PvP place now? Is it really the ranking system? Because, you know, rated battlegrounds are going to be rated. Or is it high-level rewards, which are not really available to most players? Battlegrounds are rather rewarding, and in Cata they are going to be even more rewarding.

Or, maybe, it is the feeling that you are actually important and the fight heavily depends on your actions?

EDIT: The hidden point of this post is that I do not really think Cataclysm will change the attitude to BGs, making them viable and challenging. I am pro, I ride a tank! =)

[Razariel]

That being said, I want to ask you, what makes Arena the PvP place now? Is it really the ranking system? Because, you know, rated battlegrounds are going to be rated. Or is it high-level rewards, which are not really available to most players? Battlegrounds are rather rewarding, and in Cata they are going to be even more rewarding.

Or, maybe, it is the feeling that you are actually important and the fight heavily depends on your actions?

To me, it's that your individual actions, decisions, and communication are much more critical in arenas than in BGs. Not to mention there's aspects to arenas like LoS which just don't exist in BGs. And the fact that arenas are rated makes it very easy to rank players and determine exactly how good they are.

Now when rated BGs hit, I'm sure this attitude will change. But at the moment, arenas offer competition whereas BGs are just simply a random group of people who may very well be scrubs or pros.

[Deleted]

No LoS concept in BG's.

You can easily be very lousy in a BG(using your cooldowns badly,being a clicker/keyboardturner)but still succeed because you're doing what you're told in VT(stand there and harass flag interceptors till people arrive,go with the flock) or a few good geared players steamroll the opposition for you.

There you go.BG's ridiculed 3 lines of text.Sad but true.

[ghrunt]

I agree with all the reasons listed above, as well as the fact that arena slates 2v2, 3v3 or 5v5. In BG's you never know if an encounter will be balanced (number of players wise).

[Spurmwhale]

imo Arena will always be for the hardcores, even when rated BG's hit. its more epeen, and the only thing more epeen is 1v1 dueling in terms of bragging rights. Arena is right behind that on the epeen scale of being recognized in terms of the hardcore pvp crowd. the fact that it has been the basis of the PvP system since TBC and all of the top PvP rewards were stuffed into them has made it the end all be all of PvP discussion for players that have been conditioned to it. BG's are generalized how blizzard has treated them. To me thats a HUGE reason why its so generalized as everyone AFK's through them since Blizzards own Dev's have made the same generalization(even if its untrue for most that participate).

the biggest problem i have with PvP automatically meaning Arena is its never about a class's issue, more than popular matrix's, and the assumption you always have those 2 other guys there backing you up, or full support heals. it convolutes class to class discussion issues. to me as a mage its retarded to assume i always have a priest holding my hand dispelling/healing everything i'm hit with, and a rogue to tag team someone down. god i hate that :P not to mention the most retarrded thing being i'm balanced around that :P i really dislike kalgan and crew's way of operating, wish he'd get fired some day just to see how someone different would run things. he's like the donald rumsfeld of WoW to me. people keep acting like he's earned his position therefore he must know what he's doing, but how do we truly know until there is someone else to compare him to with a different way of doing things.

[Spurmwhale]

No LoS concept in BG's.

You can easily be very lousy in a BG(using your cooldowns badly,being a clicker/keyboardturner)but still succeed because you're doing what you're told in VT(stand there and harass flag interceptors till people arrive,go with the flock) or a few good geared players steamroll the opposition for you.

There you go.BG's ridiculed 3 lines of text.Sad but true.

more like pillars are a crutch in place of being forced to exploit a class's weakness like you're forced to do in open LOS. hunter pegging you in Arena, just pillar hump him. hunter pegging you in open los? you HAVE to get to his melee and stay there. Priest mana burning you in Arena just pillar hump. Priest mana burning you in open LOS you either have to interupt/cc him, or get the hell away. Pillars are used as a crutch if anything to not having to use interrupts, counterspells, or whatever to stop someones dps. in open LOS you have to learn how to play in a hectic setting with 5-10x's the targets where you can't blinder 3 people and be completely aware of what they're all playing, worry about getting zerged, and either play way more hit and run tactics, or commit and play in their endzone. its really a different gameplay more than it being lesser PvP imo.

i mean most class's aoe spells barely has a place in Arena. Aoe shines in BG pvp tho. decision making and improvisation also shine more in bg pvp than Arena. Arena is so static and so practiced its almost like matrix play has become linear to a degree. where training a class becomes the 'right' way to beat a specific comp if you're a specific comp. its just so dumb to me how they've balanced everything PvP in WoW around popular comps in trio's that don't mimic pvp anywhere else other than Arena. WoW has the most retarded balance Dev's ever, or i should say partial.

[Dundebuns]

BG's require a greater intelligence level than arenas, because apparently it's hard for the majority of players to learn that defending a flag is a good thing.

[snodge]

Seriously, nowadays bgs are for farming honor. And once you've got the honor you wanted, you're out.

Well i do bgs for fun not to farm honor but yeah most people farm the honor and stop

[Relictus]

NO MAN, I HAVE TO USE STRATEGY AND LOGICAL REASONING TO SUCCEED IN BATTLEGROUNDS. WHEN I RIGHT CLICK FLAGS MY IQ GOES THROUGH THE ROOF. WHEN I DECIDE WHETHER TO GO TO NODE A OR TO NODE B, I HAVE TO CALCULATE A COMPLEX PROS AND CONS CHART IN MY MIND WITH SUCH A GREAT AMOUNT OF POWER THAT I CAN LIFT OBJECTS WITH MY MIND. WITH MY MIND.

[Razariel]

BG's require a greater intelligence level than arenas, because apparently it's hard for the majority of players to learn that defending a flag is a good thing.

It's hard for the majority of players to get past 1500, your logic makes no sense...

[K4ge]

more like pillars are a crutch in place of being forced to exploit a class's weakness like you're forced to do in open LOS. hunter pegging you in Arena, just pillar hump him. hunter pegging you in open los? you HAVE to get to his melee and stay there. Priest mana burning you in Arena just pillar hump. Priest mana burning you in open LOS you either have to interupt/cc him, or get the hell away. Pillars are used as a crutch if anything to not having to use interrupts, counterspells, or whatever to stop someones dps. in open LOS you have to learn how to play in a hectic setting with 5-10x's the targets where you can't blinder 3 people and be completely aware of what they're all playing, worry about getting zerged, and either play way more hit and run tactics, or commit and play in their endzone. its really a different gameplay more than it being lesser PvP imo.

i mean most class's aoe spells barely has a place in Arena. Aoe shines in BG pvp tho. decision making and improvisation also shine more in bg pvp than Arena. Arena is so static and so practiced its almost like matrix play has become linear to a degree. where training a class becomes the 'right' way to beat a specific comp if you're a specific comp. its just so dumb to me how they've balanced everything PvP in WoW around popular comps in trio's that don't mimic pvp anywhere else other than Arena. WoW has the most retarded balance Dev's ever, or i should say partial.

pillars are the only thing that make arenas playable. monday we had a team composed of 2 gladiator mages, a destro lock, an elemental shammy and a holy pally against us in wsg. we could do absolutely nothing, simply because even my healer (destrodruid ~1300 res) dropped in a single blanket counterspell.
anyone arguing about los being a bad thing is just too stupid and shows that you have no idea. Sure I can trust my mage to counterspell one poly, but after that? I either play intelligently (ie use LoS to avoid damage/cc, it's not like I can do something behind the pillar) or I eat the sheep, trinket it and then die in a death coil

[Spurmwhale]

pillars are the only thing that make arenas playable. monday we had a team composed of 2 gladiator mages, a destro lock, an elemental shammy and a holy pally against us in wsg. we could do absolutely nothing, simply because even my healer (destrodruid ~1300 res) dropped in a single blanket counterspell.
anyone arguing about los being a bad thing is just too stupid and shows that you have no idea. Sure I can trust my mage to counterspell one poly, but after that? I either play intelligently (ie use LoS to avoid damage/cc, it's not like I can do something behind the pillar) or I eat the sheep, trinket it and then die in a death coil

i said it was a crutch vs what players have to deal with in open LOS. feel free to argue my examples with mana burn or hunters. you're right there aren't enough interrupts, cc's(dr), etc. abilities in the game to keep ANYONE completely locked out from playing an ability(altho there is always out of ranged, or vanish for rogues in particular), and pillars are used to counter with skill positioning, but its gay as shit to watch people run around pillars constantly especially when its so artificially setup for that purpose(as opposed to buildings, and clever use of environment in natural settings). its gayer pvp in the entirety of WoW has been balanced around that expectation since TBC.

in BG's like i said you need to learn to play based on the situation. its not full support Arena, you don't have the perfect comp/team all of the time, you don't have the crutch of pillars, you improvise and deal with it as best you can. you don't charge in every time, there are battle lines, you cc the healer then fall back, separating them or do crap like that. i swear the way i play my Mage in mass warfare is completely different than the way i play him in small sided pvp. you just can't get away with charging into the crowd and staying there, expecting heals will keep you up more than jumping in, jumping out of range style hit and run against zergs. really depends on the class i guess but fact of the matter is you will have uneven fights in BG's and a lot more differences in power because its not prearranged, and i think thats something a lot of Arena players can't handle. imo they're the sorest losers in this game. the nerd rage in vent whenever the really hardcore pvp's i played with would die or we would lose was just retarded. but again thats real warfare, you don't always get even fights in every setting. you will get zerged at times, and you will have to learn to deal with it.

admittedly playing a rogue in mass warfare kinda sux, but in fulfilling bg objectives they're very good.

[wheresmywoft]

i said it was a crutch vs what players have to deal with in open LOS.

There simply is no way to deal with ranged in open LOS. If there were no pillars, you would not see melee in Arena at all, you probably won't even see healers. It'd be just zerg it down! playstyles, which lends to a very low skill-cap.

[Ormula]

You guys are really arguing with a PVE hero? One of those "If I spam my rotation I should down him, just like if this was naxx right," people? Come on. The dev team, thankfully, is smart enough to understand.

[Spurmwhale]

There simply is no way to deal with ranged in open LOS. If there were no pillars, you would not see melee in Arena at all, you probably won't even see healers. It'd be just zerg it down! playstyles, which lends to a very low skill-cap.

i don't agree. healers all have long CD's that keep them up for a while, and players on their side that can peel and pressure. not to mention in bg's there are usually multiples of healers, for every 10 player skirmish there are generally at least 3 healers. its almost impossible to kill 3 healer combos in today's WoW without MS, unless they're poorly geared.

the way to deal with ranged in open LOS is either pressure them, or hit and fun from out of range. not saying there is always that option with a class's CD's, nor do i think things are currently really balanced for bg's/open LOS, the balance we're playing in is still based on Arena 3's comps and pillars. otherwise hunters would've been nerfed a while ago.

the way it plays out generally isn't as broken/bad as some of you are portraying unless we're talkiing gear disparities, which is a huge factor in bg's. the l2play bads are a big factor too, but the difference between a geared resilienced healer vs poorly geared is night and day, and thats passive. same with almost every class in terms of survivability, which is one of the biggest hard to kill while they can spam damage factors there is between 'good' and bad players. its the one thing i keep realizing when i play BG's, and how much gear matters despite the constant justification otherwise.

[Spurmwhale]

You guys are really arguing with a PVE hero? One of those "If I spam my rotation I should down him, just like if this was naxx right," people? Come on. The dev team, thankfully, is smart enough to understand.

how is the Dev team smart? they've balanced their whole pvp system around fighting in a box of pillars, in specific 3's comps, that don't apply anywhere else.

i guess it depends on which side of the fence you're standing,, but i've honestly never seen a Dev team so partial in any game i've played. they're some of the worst ever in terms of game balance i've experienced. at least they can use PvE as a scapegoat to PvP balancing.

[Ormula]

how is the Dev team smart? they've balanced their whole pvp system around fighting in a box of pillars, in specific 3's comps, that don't apply anywhere else.

i guess it depends on which side of the fence you're standing,, but i've honestly never seen a Dev team so partial in any game i've played. they're some of the worst ever in terms of game balance i've experienced. at least they can use PvE as a scapegoat to PvP balancing.

Situation 1, flat land no LoS:

You have a rogue/priest vs MM hunter/mut rogue. Rogues find each other, sap each other, both reenter stealth. Hunter finds rogue1 with a flare, the rogue2 opens on rogue1 and the hunter starts to pelt him as well. Evasion pops, and the hunter disengages towards the priest, scatter-->freezing trap, he trinkets, who cares, let's get back on the rogue, silence the priest, kill the rogue, GG.

A few things happened here. There isn't much the rogue can do against the hunter, because the rogue has -70% run speed and everyone knows hunters shoot right through vanish. The priest was spam healing, but the second the rogue's cooldowns were down and the priest was controlled just a tiny bit, the rogue was dead. And this is what will happen if there is no LoS.

If there was LoS, the priest could easily avoid silencing shots, scatter shots, freezing arrows. The rogue could also find some refuge from the hunter in the same way. If you take away LoS, you're pretty much saying "If you're melee, GTFO arena." Pretty much every team would be one rogue, crippling on one dagger mind-numbing on the other, start in stealth, run in, FoK, vanish away, and the rest of the team (obviously ranged), pushes their buttons as fast as possible because there's no use doing anything else. I'm sorry, I'm not playing Runescape. I like at least a tiny bit of strategy in games that I play.

[Danur]

ahem...using caps and bold for impact...

OMG I AM SO PRO, I CHARGE INTO BGS BLOW ALL MY CDS TO KILL ONE PERSON, THEN GET OWNED BY A ROGUE AND QQ IN BG CHAT ABOUT HOW ROGUES ARE SO OP AND NEED TO BE NURF'D! THEN I REZ COME BACK AND KILL THE ROGUE WHILE HIS CDS ARE DOWN AND CLAIM I AM A BAD-MOTHER-F-ING-ASS PVPER. I CHARGE INTO A GROUP OF 3 ENEMIES WITH 6 PEOPLE BEHIND ME AND CLAIM THAT I R USING STRATEGERY TO OVERCOME THEM. I IS PRO NO I AM NOT GUD AT ARENAZ BUT THATS JUST BECAUSE ARENAZ ISNT SKILL LIKE MAH BGS.

[Spurmwhale]

Situation 1, flat land no LoS:

You have a rogue/priest vs MM hunter/mut rogue. Rogues find each other, sap each other, both reenter stealth. Hunter finds rogue1 with a flare, the rogue2 opens on rogue1 and the hunter starts to pelt him as well. Evasion pops, and the hunter disengages towards the priest, scatter-->freezing trap, he trinkets, who cares, let's get back on the rogue, silence the priest, kill the rogue, GG.

A few things happened here. There isn't much the rogue can do against the hunter, because the rogue has -70% run speed and everyone knows hunters shoot right through vanish. The priest was spam healing, but the second the rogue's cooldowns were down and the priest was controlled just a tiny bit, the rogue was dead. And this is what will happen if there is no LoS.

If there was LoS, the priest could easily avoid silencing shots, scatter shots, freezing arrows. The rogue could also find some refuge from the hunter in the same way. If you take away LoS, you're pretty much saying "If you're melee, GTFO arena." Pretty much every team would be one rogue, crippling on one dagger mind-numbing on the other, start in stealth, run in, FoK, vanish away, and the rest of the team (obviously ranged), pushes their buttons as fast as possible because there's no use doing anything else. I'm sorry, I'm not playing Runescape. I like at least a tiny bit of strategy in games that I play.

i don't think its nearly as linear as you just put it, and what happened to staying in melee as much as possible against the hunter? thats a hunters weakness. that is strategy. pillar is just another option but don't pretend thats the only option. if the rogue has blown all of his CD's and ends up being kited, or isn't a spec that has it easier against hunters, then that is more or less how the pvp is in this game. making an example out of 2's to show imba pvp in open LOS when LOS 2's is already proven as imbalanced isn't really making that much of a point.

for most players this scenario in a BG setting isn't nearly as one way as you're making out. neither do hunters always shoot thru vanish. theres just way more variables than you just put it.

again i emphasize a lot of situations in this game isn't fair, and that is BG pvp. you take the good with the bad, and you won't always have the prearranged fairness of Arena, nor the pillars to make up for not having the CD's, where you either take the death or improvise/escape.

[Spurmwhale]

i also want to emphasize as a mage i've always had to improvise in open LOS against crap that was balanced around pillars. when mana burning was retarded and these dumbass dev's expected players to pillar it or run oom, and that was always the idiot expectation from arena players as well, i had to always get out of range even if it was retarded to have to do that, just to have mana without having to drink for the next 3 minutes out of the fight each time i ran into a priest.

its the same with hunters. you think its easy fighting these guys in a no LOS setting? its either melee ranged or run out of ranged(or sheep) until they chase you, and then jump back into their melee. either way its not impossible but definitely difficult since they've been balanced around Arena and pillars based on representation, where they were overbuffed for open LOS settings.