when to pop your wings as ret

[Badpaladin]

No I have not used it but maybe I will get it and create these macros for next week just for testing purposes. Forgetting about the macro for a second, there is no possible way that one single person can be that much better than the rest of the world all things being equal. The pure simplicity of the ret rotation prevents any one person from being that superior to every other human that plays this game.

I don't want to turn this into a fanboi convo and he is certainly very very good, but he is not so absolutely amazing that he can do things no one else can figure out. Ret is too simplified for that. His earlier parses were also attributed to him being in a cutting edge guild with cutting edge raid dps and being well ahead of the gear curve compared to the rest of the world. More recently their most recent WoL for saurfang was 2:37 secs, the second fastest I see (without much searching). That is a highly optimal uptime for 2 Avenging Wrath casts, a very high BL uptime percentage, etc. Everyone in their guild is over 14k and he isn't even at the top with 16.7k. Their guild is extremely dominant when it comes down to pure raid dps. When everyone else is putting up big numbers that just increases your individual numbers. My best Marrowgar parse in my previous guild was below 15k, which was well above anyone else in the guild. The first week in a new guild, my dps went from 14 something to 16.4k because everyone else was pulling their weight meaning I was seeing those inflated numbers from higher BL uptime, higher AW uptime etc.

This is why you don't see Joe Schmoe or Swampmoose in the number 1 spot every week and why you consistently see the same few names up top every week. Spankolol, Savedyou, Qt, Iseous, etc. They are marginally higher because of SM which is where they should be. Of course you have to exclude the gypsies that are on the receiving end of Hysteria and ToTT the entire fight like some top parses are, but generally speaking, the few that are always on top are in the best of the best guilds, which are only inflating those numbers higher and higher each week because of what everyone is doing around them.

Now like I said, all things being equal, you won't see those numbers if you put him in a middle of the road guild with shoddy raid dps. The dps output will be hardly the same. Thousands of dps difference.

Again, not to take anything away from him because he is an exceptional player, but you have to look at things in context.

No, he's not doing anything different. In fact, it's other people that are doing it differently, with respect to FCFS. I've tired over parses from the "big players", or whatever, in scoreboards to measure effective cooldowns since those are the true measure of how effectively you're playing your class. He's consistently had the most optimized eCD's, with a few exceptions, compared to any other ret and it shows you what the result is when you get a good fight length. A lot more people have been using AhK, especially since he posted his script - but there's still human error involved because people still have such a disparity in effective cooldowns.

I was standing outside at the smoke break reading your last two posts on my iPhone. I actually laughed out loud on both of them. A decent sense of humor is rare to find on these forums because everyone takes everything so literally nowadays.

A lot of people can't seem to be able to mix discussion with jive properly. I think the two can coincide well if it's not taken too out of control(see blizzard forums and Elitist Jerks forums for two extremes).

[Kisko]

I think you are a little confused here he is one of the only Rets putting up shadowmourne numbers without having it, How can you say he does not squeeze DPS?

Lol @ u.
He's actually one of the biggest contributors to "Ret Theorycrafting" there is.

Dunno what you mean because he's probably got the largest fanboy base because he does more than people with skillmourne, but you probably didn't read the dicussion I linked. And my guess is he probably doesn't run an amazing computer, there's probably plenty of people out there with far better computers/connections.

So, none of you actually bothered to look at the logs. I expected that, fanbase is fanbase.







1. Do you agree that aligning wings with DV proc is a dps gain on these short 2AW fights?
2. Do you see that Bluedeep is not doing this?
3. Laugh at me some more.

[Rlyskilled]

I choose 3.

Lululululul!

[Nillo]

I choose 3.

^^^^ because most likely those bosses were farm bosses for them at that time and he didn't even bother to max his dps !_! (Like festergut @ 4.5.2010 would require max dps)
but well if you feel like playing perfect, when you're already more than 1 min away from the enrage timer....

[Swampmoose]

So, none of you actually bothered to look at the logs. I expected that, fanbase is fanbase.

1. Do you agree that aligning wings with DV proc is a dps gain on these short 2AW fights?
2. Do you see that Bluedeep is not doing this?
3. Laugh at me some more.

1. Do you agree I never said anything about the alignment of Paragon and AW?
2. Do you see that cooldown alignment have nothing to do with contribution as a theory crafter?
3. Lets take off our pants and dance!

Um, ignore number 3.

[Prentice]

Swamp, I came to your server last night looking for you and you had already logged off. I was very disappointed, man.

[Swampmoose]

11:30 Eastern or so I'm in bed :/

[Baabinator]

IMO:

As soon as your first trinket/libram procs.

[Symbioticon]

For the wings:

Just before the pull, I have a macro to un-equip/re-equip my trinkets for the 45s ICD

After that, I lead with rotation getting 5 stacks of SoV up asap [thank you hyperspeed accelerators]

at ~ 30s into the fight my trinkets will proc after the ICD drops [power auras to help here] and then I pop my wings.

On most static fights, Hero/BL is set up early on, usually within the first 30s of the encounter.

Other then that - it's a balance between known dps stops [bone storm/submerge etc] to time my wings.

my 0.02$

[Requital]

So, none of you actually bothered to look at the logs. I expected that, fanbase is fanbase.







1. Do you agree that aligning wings with DV proc is a dps gain on these short 2AW fights?
2. Do you see that Bluedeep is not doing this?
3. Laugh at me some more.

1. No delaying AW is not likely to be a DPS gain.

2. I see he doesn't do it and does more DPS and has for a long time, You remove every DPS record with a Skillmourne and Bluedeep is in the top 5 on every kill and most of the time he is #1 and has been for a long time.

3. Can I point and laugh because I find it more enjoyable.

Delaying wings will ALMOST ALWAYS be a DPS loss period, When you can pull the numbers he pulls without a Shadowmourne you can tell us he doesn't know what he is doing and doesn't know how to DPS but until then Numbers > Ideas and his numbers are smoking your ideas.

Can you provide one parse where anyone without a Skillmourne delays Wings for Paragon and comes out ahead? I'd be interested in checking that one out.

[Badpaladin]

Kisko, use the expression editor and look at Divine Storm damage on beasts.

[Kisko]

1. No delaying AW is not likely to be a DPS gain.

2. I see he doesn't do it and does more DPS and has for a long time, You remove every DPS record with a Skillmourne and Bluedeep is in the top 5 on every kill and most of the time he is #1 and has been for a long time.

3. Can I point and laugh because I find it more enjoyable.

1. "Not likely"? You looking at these logs and telling me that A * B > A * (B+100)? Really?
We are not talking about progression fight of unknown length. It's a farm 3:xx content for them and he knows he won't fit 3rd AW there.

2. "I can't explain these logs and why he did not squeezed max dps, but that's a Bluedeep he can do no wrong." LOL.

3. It was an option for those who can't provide any arguments. I guess you have made your choice.

Can you provide one parse where anyone without a Skillmourne delays Wings for Paragon and comes out ahead? I'd be interested in checking that one out.

Yeah, I can. Fayz@Premonition.



And yes, he delayed it for 13 seconds to align with DV proc. So, what now? Fayz is a baddie and Bluedeep knows better? Sigh.

Notice that I'm not saying that Bluedeep is bad ret or his dps is not great. It is. He has very solid gear, low ping and violates ToS to do it, but still he is amazing.
There are people who do it even better though and they do actually pay attention to ICDs. Also amazing rets from top guilds.

And the answer to the topic of this thread is that you SHOULD try to align wings with proc whenever possible and IT IS a dps gain,
even if some amazing rets can do great dps without this aligning (they would do more with it, though).

Kisko, use the expression editor and look at Divine Storm damage on beasts.

Badpaladin, explain in more details what you trying to prove.

[Badpaladin]

Badpaladin, explain in more details what you trying to prove.

Expression editor gives you a breakdown of any specific ability on any specific target. If you run the query "fulltype=103 and targetname="Blood Beast" and sourcename="Bluedeep" and spell="Divine Storm", you'll see at some point DS was hitting them a lot harder, and that's because wings was blown. He does the "wings trick" on beast spawns to get an extra 150 dps, so Saurfang isn't really a good fight to measure lining up procs.

I wouldn't compare festergut for this week either, since AW wasn't cast until well after initial ICD's were blown which leads me to believe there was a premature pull.

[Kisko]

Expression editor gives you a breakdown of any specific ability on any specific target. If you run the query "fulltype=103 and targetname="Blood Beast" and sourcename="Bluedeep" and spell="Divine Storm", you'll see at some point DS was hitting them a lot harder, and that's because wings was blown. He does the "wings trick" on beast spawns to get an extra 150 dps, so Saurfang isn't really a good fight to measure lining up procs.

I wouldn't compare festergut for this week either, since AW wasn't cast until well after initial ICD's were blown which leads me to believe there was a premature pull.

I understand your idea, but I can give you as many Bluedeep logs as you want and the only pattern you will find there is that he blows AW when it comes off cooldown, give or take few seconds.
Actually he stated that he does this on EJ forum. So ... not much sense in making excuses for him.
He blows AW each 2 minutes. He doesn't wait consciously to align it with trinket proc. End of story.

[Badpaladin]

I understand your idea, but I can give you as many Bluedeep logs as you want and the only pattern you will find there is that he blows AW when it comes off cooldown, give or take few seconds.
Actually he stated that he does this on EJ forum. So ... not much sense in making excuses for him.
He blows AW each 2 minutes. He doesn't wait consciously to align it with trinket proc. End of story.

Never said he didn't, in fact I quoted his post.

[Swampmoose]

Does anyone know how much extra dps it is to time wings with beast spawns?

[Cactrot]

Gunship: do you really need wings here?

I believe the correct time to use wings on gunship is while jumping to the other ship and yelling "I CAN FLYYYYYY"

[Badpaladin]

Does anyone know how much extra dps it is to time wings with beast spawns?

Depends on how long they're in DS range. I usually have a 150 dps increase, but some people see up to 300 or more if a pushback is late.

[Millennía]

Usually on a boss i pop wings at the start when i get my first 5 stacks so i can use it as much as i can in a fight.

[Swampmoose]

Depends on how long they're in DS range. I usually have a 150 dps increase, but some people see up to 300 or more if a pushback is late.

I was being a dick and just seeing if I could get you to say "extra 150 dps" just one more time. I am winner.