Renew vs POH -debate-

[Checksmix]

but no it's not possible to get Healing Prayers as Discipline.

why... why would you want it even as holy?

[Kelesti]

why... why would you want it even as holy?

Why would you want to be a bad, that refuses to acknowledge a potentially much better play style, simply for the sake of "only cast instants lolol"?

[harky]

You know what's sad? It also works on an instant...

I can't think of any viable Holy build that skips Healing Prayers in any case. There's just nothing worthwhile to take in its place, even if you don't think the mana savings are worth getting. It's still an extra ~2.5k mana per point in a 5 minute fight even if you don't use PoH. If you cast PoH even something low like once a minute it turns from a minor regen talent to a massive regen talent. :

[Checksmix]

Why would you want to be a bad, that refuses to acknowledge a potentially much better play style, simply for the sake of "only cast instants lolol"?

I use PoH from time to time. And i dont just use instant cast. Its just Mana conservation<Healing/Survivability

[harky]

Okay, what healing gain can you get instead? What survivability bonus can you get instead? The basic standard spec is this: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#bVcbhZfvzcbMqqhGcuAo

Survivability: Only option is 1 point in Spell Warding for 2% less spell damage taken. This is something you will never notice. If you're up against something that hits for 20k damage you'd need to be reduced to 400 health for 1 point in SW to have saved you. I'd rather have 2-5k additional mana in a fight so that I can gear for more throughput.

Healing: Nothing. You could take 2/5 Divine Fury, or 2/5 Emp. Healing, both of which suck.

There's no rational reason to skip Healing Prayers.

[Zeuq]

It's actually just as easy to work in PoH as Discipline as it is for Holy. Most don't because Discipline is typically used in setups with more healers overall. The PoH glyph is heavily recommended to Disc for that reason. The idea is simply to look out for people at low health and then toss a PoH into that group with BT's haste. Back in Ulduar there were even strategies revolving around using PW:S on low-health targets, then PoH and going back and forth in that manner. With a pretty normal level of haste you can be tossing out a 1.7-1.8s PoH.

Fair point, and I agree. If anything, I think picking out times for PoH might be a little easier as Discipline because the limitations of PWS are a little different. Like mentioned before, if you need PWS for certain aspects of a fight (like for Pacts on BQL), then it make a little more sense to try to get more usage out of PoH.

And nice post Zeuq, though I take objection to the use of the word curt. I'd like to think I'm quite diffuse in my exposition... though I am pretty curt, aren't I. :'(

Hey, I included myself in there too! ;D

Fun note on Sindragosa; You can ignore LOS problems from tombs in P3 with PoH.

I've been abusing this since day one. Don't have to worry nearly as much about dropping stacks or running out. Let those silly Druids do all the running around instead. :P

[Jimmyw]

(stupid facepalm pic here)

I dont even care if i get banned, this quote needed it.

I wonder why u think that its stupid of me to say that Haste is not really needed that much as holy when going renew spec?? do you want holy priests to gem for haste??? I mean elaborate, I might be right, I might be wrong (even though I doubt the latter).. just dont come with a retarded comment and pic and not tell me as to why u believe stacking haste is good for renew spamming holy priest...

[Zeuq]

I wonder why u think that its stupid of me to say that Haste is not really needed that much as holy when going renew spec?? do you want holy priests to gem for haste??? I mean elaborate, I might be right, I might be wrong (even though I doubt the latter).. just dont come with a retarded comment and pic and not tell me as to why u believe stacking haste is good for renew spamming holy priest...

There's been a bunch of threads on this, so I'll be brief, but Haste reduces the GCD as well. Thus, after various amounts of Haste, one can get Renews running on more targets in the same amount of time. In the case of an aura fight (like BQL), SP doesn't help a whole lot because Renew was already keeping the target topped, so more healing largely translates into overhealing instead of useful throughput; however, if you have enough Haste to get another Renew running, you can now counteract the aura on one more target. In short, keeping one more target alive is more useful than more overhealing.

[Jimmyw]

still u would have to gem haste to get enough haste for that to be reliable and its not worth it to do that for one aura fight... so staying at around 5-600 haste shud suffice for any holy priest.. I realize that almost every fight has aura dmg in icc but i still disagree.. haste is not as needed since I wanna bet with you taht you will waste quite a few GCD with moving, popping pain supp etc...

it may just be me, and maybe I shud look into gemming haste I just doubt I wud benefit a whole lot by loosing 240 Spell power, 92 int. 60 spirit to gain Haste.. pls correct me if im completely wrong, I am afterall farming 9/12 25 man HC and looking to better myself as much as possible...

also wouldnt gemming haste worsen the occasional Disc offspec healing?

[fabian]

still u would have to gem haste to get enough haste for that to be reliable and its not worth it to do that for one aura fight... so staying at around 5-600 haste shud suffice for any holy priest.. I realize that almost every fight has aura dmg in icc but i still disagree.. haste is not as needed since I wanna bet with you taht you will waste quite a few GCD with moving, popping pain supp etc...

it may just be me, and maybe I shud look into gemming haste I just doubt I wud benefit a whole lot by loosing 240 Spell power, 92 int. 60 spirit to gain Haste.. pls correct me if im completely wrong, I am afterall farming 9/12 25 man HC and looking to better myself as much as possible...

also wouldnt gemming haste worsen the occasional Disc offspec healing?

Another thing about gemming haste is the fact that you do get "free SP" from the ICC buff, which just translates into more overhealing. Most priests have been switching to haste gems as the buff is getting larger. Also, 600 haste in 25 man HC content seems a little bit low, mind if you post your armory.

Disc does favor SP, even with the ICC buff, but more haste for Disc is never a bad thing. So gemming 12 SP/10 Haste will be beneficial if you intend to switch between the two.

[Jimmyw]

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...mane&cn=Tadaah is my armory.. if it doesnt work just go to wow-europe.com - armor and search Tadaah from Frostmane

[harky]

Fair point, and I agree. If anything, I think picking out times for PoH might be a little easier as Discipline because the limitations of PWS are a little different. Like mentioned before, if you need PWS for certain aspects of a fight (like for Pacts on BQL), then it make a little more sense to try to get more usage out of PoH.

PW:S also 'heals' for substantially less than Renew (~12k vs ~19k) so it's pretty easy to says okay, if I can get 30% or less over-healing on PoH, I should cast it. With higher haste and higher crit that over-healing numbers drops even lower. People like to ignore that PW:S at 0% over-healing is equal to Renew at 33% over-healing. The easy to predict over-heal on PW:S helps make PoH easier to use, but the low throughput helps more. Though, I guess to accept that Disc would need to admit PW:S's limitations, which I think there's some sort of demonic lip seal to prevent from happening.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...mane&cn=Tadaah is my armory.. if it doesnt work just go to wow-europe.com - armor and search Tadaah from Frostmane

Holy perspective:
1. You do not need Int gems.
2. Wrong Meta. The reason we use IED is that IED alone works out to about the same regen as all those Int gems you have combined. If you need Int gems, but are using IED, then switching to IED would allow you to forgo Int gems. Only use other metas if you don't need to gem regen at all.
3. Wrong way to get 4pT10, should be Helm/Shoulders/Legs/Gloves in all cases and aiming for Sanguine.
4. Wrong helm enchant, crit is slightly less useless than MP5.
5. Wrong chest enchant, +10 stats is superior.

You'd be at 830 haste just regemming and not lose much regen at all as Holy. Switching your T10 around would pop you up to nearly 1,000 haste with no notable loss.

Disc perspective:
1. Still do not need Int gems. At all. You should be entirely +SP gems as Disc.
2. Still wrong way to get 4pT10, see above; though the off-set robe is the Shadow T10, instead of Sanguine.
3. Still wrong helm enchant. MP5 is even less needed as Disc.
4. Still wrong chest enchant, +10 stats is superior.

You'd gain around 200 SP regemming with no noticeable loss.

[Zeuq]

still u would have to gem haste to get enough haste for that to be reliable and its not worth it to do that for one aura fight... so staying at around 5-600 haste shud suffice for any holy priest.. I realize that almost every fight has aura dmg in icc but i still disagree.. haste is not as needed since I wanna bet with you taht you will waste quite a few GCD with moving, popping pain supp etc...

First off, a more than one fight in ICC have aura damage (Marrowgar, Festergut, PP, BQL, Sindragosa), and ones that don't either still favor more renews vs. stronger renews, or benefit from faster reactive healing. And your second point doesn't make sense... if you're going to "waste" a GCD, doesn't it make sense you'd want to waste less time? As a Holy Priest, the only spell of any significance you can't cast on the move is PoH, so how does movement make Haste a worse stat?

it may just be me, and maybe I shud look into gemming haste I just doubt I wud benefit a whole lot by loosing 240 Spell power, 92 int. 60 spirit to gain Haste.. pls correct me if im completely wrong, I am afterall farming 9/12 25 man HC and looking to better myself as much as possible...

I'm sorry, but especially if you're in Hardmodes, if you're gemming Int, you're doing something. You're either lacking some important buffs, not making good use of your CDs, or just wasting itemization on unneeded regen. At the very least, you should replace any Int with Haste. That alone will net you what should be a noticeable difference in your Haste, and will probably help you understand why it's valuable. What I did when I was first aiming for more Haste was start with a balance between SP and Haste. But now, with the 20% ICC buff, if a Renew was able to keep up with the damage at lower buffs, how is more SP and a larger buff going to be helpful?

also wouldnt gemming haste worsen the occasional Disc offspec healing?

Yes, and that's a consideration to take. But no matter what you do, gearing for Disc and Holy are going to be different, so you either optimize for one, or you choose something that is sub-optimal for both. Personally, I don't feel the need to spec Disc anymore when our Disc Priest can't make it, but I haven't attempted Heroic LK yet.

[Deleted]

Daddy cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5gNYVia2rg

[Jimmyw]

reason why i took 277 tier chest was cause I was our main disc priest, and sanguine is like number 8 on disc BiS list, now we have gotten a disc trial in though so im gonna phase back to holy which I was before I became main disc priest..

im not gonna change my 277 chest anytime soon though since there is a ton of other stuff I need before that and basicly loosing my "will" to raid with the 20% buff, think its a joke atm and its only gonna get worse in 1 month its 25% only to end at 30%...

but what you are saying is I shud go all out haste regem? im considering to try it out just for the luls and see what happens...

just such a drastic change in mind-set to go all out haste gemming.

pls link ur Armory profile.