Ret Glyphs and rawr

[Nikoll]

Now, I don't use Rawr as an end-all. it has its flaws, but is generaly is a pretty good tool not off to bad on normal things, but something i have been thinking about and trying to run math on to support or disprove my thoughts. I'm comparing exo and con glyph (again, yeah i do this a lot) and rawr poped this odd little thing up for me.



anyone else seeing this on their rawr? I don't belive this, mind you, but i'm wondering how/if it is that far off.according to the math i've been running the difference is at best 22dps (to exo, but i've only looked at my own logs). But there seems to me to be no possible way con glyph could be worth so little dps.

And yes, all of my settings are correct, i rececked many times. TBH i just belive this proves that the glyph portion of rawr is very flawed, but i figured i'd bring this up.

[Kisko]

Negative. My Rawr looks like it should.

Make sure all your settings are adequate and Rawr build is recent.

[Nillo]

Mine shows exo at 39.16 dps and Cons at 19.17 dps => doesn't make sense, especially because Cons is on a 15 sec cd vs 17.23 of exo => Cons Glyph should be close to 25% dmg boost to Cons (6000 per cast), which is far more dps, than 20% on exo (5400 per cast)

And what's even more funny is - if I swap out the glyphs it goes like this:
None of them equipped : Both give 20 dps
Exo equipped : Cons goes up to 40 dps !_! - can't be because Exo glyph has absolutely no impact on cons glyph.
Cons equipped : Exo goes up to 40 dps, Cons cd goes from 8 sec to 14 sec, while Exo cd only changes slightly.
Both equipped : Both of them go up to 40 dps ~~~~~

Dunno, but it really seems, that there is something messed up.

[Ryme]

Mine does the same thing. It gets even weirder when you change them, mine claims Exo is superior when I have Cons, and Cons is superior when I have exo.

Personally, I ignore those two, they fluctuate so often with even the smallest upgrade. I'd bet it has something to do with the 4pc messing up the priority system in a way that can't be perfectly predicted.

[Kisko]

Found it. Looks like it depends on Cons/Exo order at rotation.

I have it at Exo > Cons, because it's more dps for me by Rawr. When I change that to Cons > Exo, my glyphs will be screwed similar to what you observe.

[Deleted]

The problem behind this weird behavior is caused by Glyph of Cons itself because it increases the cooldown of Cons and alters our effective cooldowns.
If we had a real rotation with one use of Cons every 10 sec (or something even higher) then the Glyph would be just a damage boost but in increasing the cooldown it also changes our "rotation" - and that way alters the effective cooldown of exo which is the last ability on our priority list. Additionally this effect should be further increased by Divine Storm! procs of our Tier10 bonus.

Using my current gear without Glyph of Cons Rawr shows an effective cooldown of 8.99 sec for Cons while it jumps up to 14.17 sec if the glyph is active.
So Glyph of Cons almost doubles the DPS from Exo (142 to 282) but lowers the DPS of Cons itself (551 to 507) just because it's not possible to use Cons every 8.99 sec and I'm able to use Exo slightly more often. Overall this is a dps (and more important: mana) win but it also increases the benefit of Glyph of Exo.

Rawr does not check how many glyphs are active so it just shows the dps gained from using a glyph with the currently active glyph set even if you had to use a fourth glyph to achieve that.

[Ronark]

Mine shows exo at 39.16 dps and Cons at 19.17 dps => doesn't make sense, especially because Cons is on a 15 sec cd vs 17.23 of exo => Cons Glyph should be close to 25% dmg boost to Cons (6000 per cast), which is far more dps, than 20% on exo (5400 per cast)

If you have Consecration glyph "equipped", it will show it as less DPS in the Glyph window. As soon as you uncheck it, it moves back ahead of Exorcism again.

[Borigrad]

you mean even tho having the consecration glyph in no way affects your dps from it, but instead affects how much mana you can save from casting it less having it up more??? Which is exactly why rawr is flawed it doesn't calculate the simple things and only goes by the numbers it knows.

not that i have anything against rawr myself i use it, just it can be very inaccurate.

Edit: That requires you to use it whenever it's up, which i don't because of divine storm procs, just like with exo if i have a free gcd.

[Prentice]

Its kinda funny how different the results can be for all of us. Mind you, I normally set my fight duration to 60 mins. This is fully raid buffed too.

[Badpaladin]

I don't see the point in making fight lengths 60 minutes, because fights only last 3-4 minutes now with the 20% lolbuff active. Just please don't go blindly by what RAWR says - SoV glyph opens up itemization for Haste or Crit at the expense of a very paltry DPS increase on an ability that's rarely used.

[Prentice]

I don't see the point in making fight lengths 60 minutes, because fights only last 3-4 minutes now with the 20% lolbuff active. Just please don't go blindly by what RAWR says - SoV glyph opens up itemization for Haste or Crit at the expense of a very paltry DPS increase on an ability that's rarely used.

I use the 60 minute setting because Rawr can freak out when setting it to shorter fight durations. By increasing the length of the fight, you can get a much smoother set of data that isn't overwhelmingly affected by a single extra attack like you can with a fight duration of 3 minutes. By setting the fight to its true length, you risk seeing all sorts of stupid results such as gemming for all haste.

[Copain]

you mean even tho having the consecration glyph in no way affects your dps from it, but instead affects how much mana you can save from casting it less having it up more??? Which is exactly why rawr is flawed it doesn't calculate the simple things and only goes by the numbers it knows.

not that i have anything against rawr myself i use it, just it can be very inaccurate.

Edit: That requires you to use it whenever it's up, which i don't because of divine storm procs, just like with exo if i have a free gcd.

Methinks Rawr is made to give you a general idea. Relying on it to give exact numbers and proper situation use (such as battles with mana problems, or on bosses with move mechanics) will not work out well.

Think of it as a guideline when you're making your character "Gem this, socket that, only go for.." It's just advice that can help you, but there's a lot of factors that you'll have to test and use yourself to get exact results.

[Prentice]

Methinks Rawr is made to give you a general idea. Relying on it to give exact numbers and proper situation use (such as battles with mana problems, or on bosses with move mechanics) will not work out well.

Think of it as a guideline when you're making your character "Gem this, socket that, only go for.." It's just advice that can help you, but there's a lot of factors that you'll have to test and use yourself to get exact results.

One of the facets of Rawr is that it does not include TTO (Time To OOM). As such, you aren't penalized and the data isn't skewed by the possibility of you running out of mana.

[Badpaladin]

But that's still worth over a 60 minute interval. Although 3-4 minute fights give huge fluctuations in stat worth, they're the more applicable simulations because fights are 3-4 minutes in length. Your last cast might be Exorcism for one fight, increasing the value of the glyph, but on the next it won't be. 60 minute simulations normalizes this but still doesn't tell you its worth on fights you're actually experiencing.

[Nikoll]

The longer the aim the more acurate the result. Enh sim default runs at three hours. This helps reduce rng discrepencies.

@Ron, con glyph only gains a few dps turning it off.

[Prentice]

But that's still worth over a 60 minute interval. Although 3-4 minute fights give huge fluctuations in stat worth, they're the more applicable simulations because fights are 3-4 minutes in length. Your last cast might be Exorcism for one fight, increasing the value of the glyph, but on the next it won't be. 60 minute simulations normalizes this but still doesn't tell you its worth on fights you're actually experiencing.

I understand what you're suggesting and largely agree with you. However, the average player will not run a simulation for each fight they will be attending and reglyph/regem for each one. Smooth averages are better than wonky setups that are only ideal for specific fights. The best examples are sub 4 minute Festerguts and 15 minutes LK fights.

[Badpaladin]

I understand what you're suggesting and largely agree with you. However, the average player will not run a simulation for each fight they will be attending and reglyph/regem for each one. Smooth averages are better than wonky setups that are only ideal for specific fights. The best examples are sub 4 minute Festerguts and 15 minutes LK fights.

I did =/. I suppose it's a good thing I quite raiding, eh?