It is almost time to make hybrid's on par with the pure bloods. (TLDR at bottom)

[Skollvaldr]

The pure DPS classes are just DPS.

no they are not! that view is bs.
there are several encounters where pures have to do other stuff than dps in order for your raid to succede.

ldw for example. doesn't work without rogues/hunters for kicks, tricks and kites.
lk. doesn't work without enrage dispells from rogues/hunters.
etc.

Otherwise whats the point in playing them.

presonal preference, maybe?

The day my mage can heal like a heal or tank like a tank by changing talents, ill agree with hybrids doing as much damage as him.

just because hybrids CAN change roles doesn't mean they do.
in top end content it's not that easy gathering acceptable offgear when everybody else still needs stuff and you have to focus on your main gear.

and btw, pures CAN reroll. it's up to you to do it or leave it if your raid is in need of a certain class.

you see, it's ALL about preference. nobody should be 'charged' anything for something they COULD do.

[Asmo]

I think the real issue here is that people who play a pure DPS class as a main, aren't taking into considering the idea that some people may want to roll DK/Warrior/Priest/Shaman/Paladin/Druid DPS because they like how the class does damage over anything else. In a lot of cases, the other two specs are minor bonuses more than anything else, and they would gladly sacrifice them to forego the "hybrid tax". Unfortunately, they cannot.

I think Astray's point is a valid one.

Okey, lets make demonology a tankspec. You dont like tanking? Does not matter. Say goodbye to all wins in dps. Not fun anymore? Why not? Thats -10% for having a role you dont like, thats fine, thats fair!

Also, history lesson: I'm pretty sure many of you are misinterpreting the concept of the "hybrid tax". It is only indirectly tied to healing. The concept was spawned in vanilla because classes with utility were given subpar dps so that they would not be overpowered. At that time, you could heal fairly efficiently (because no one was very efficient) in any spec as a hybrid. I remember our one feral druid putting on healing gear and having a humongous mana pool. At that point in time, having a feral do competitive or the same DPS would have been the end of pure DPS for all intents and purposes as that brought very little or nothing to the table in terms of raid utility.

Today this issue is no longer the case. Every class has a reason to be brought along purely for reasons of synergy. In Cata, pure DPS will have even more raid utility. In effect, the only difference between them will be that hybrids will have the option to throw a heal, or be an emergency tank. However, consider this. Healing hybrids without the mana regen, or improved healing talents will not have longevity or efficiency, in addition to the fact that any time healing is lost DPS in the first place. Same with a tanking hybrid, as time focused on threat is time when they aren't DPS'ing to max potential. In essence, being a hybrid is tax enough without adding in artificial barriers to potential max DPS.

[Phantazm]

NOT only do we get limited by our performance but we use to also have to spend 150 gold+ to respec...

150 gold to switch raid roles entirely?! we had no idea. that's just...just AWFUL!

do you know how many rogues, mages, warlocks, hunters, etc. would be HAPPY to pay several thousand gold in order to have the equivalent of another toon available to them simply for the cost of some in-game gold?

[Negrido]

What role you can fill and when... is not the issue... and if you think that its seriously off... I am being penalized for being able to go heal spec if I want?

That is exactly blizzards standpoint on the issue. It has been explicitly stated that the reason pure classes have a very slight edge on damage is because they are pure, they have no other options. You do, you simply do not appreciate them.

Guess what until the introduction of dual spec... and the respec limit put on... the abilit to just go respec for what the raid needed... was very off NOT only do we get limited by our performance but we use to also have to spend 150 gold+ to respec...

Besides DPS classes have MULTIPLE dps specs... where they can change the utility they bring to a raid... sometimes its better for a hunter to be survival... sometimes better for MM... Warlocks use to be able to tank bosses in BC depending on spec... or just be pure dps... with rogues their have the added poison affects versus the pure dps... so the "idea" of being able to change spec depending on raid needs... is very very very wrapped.

You having to pay gold does in no way justify your assertions. Beyond that, some of your assertions are less than accurate, misleading, or outright untrue.

[ItachiZaku]

I've never played a pure DPS until now and i'm still leveling, but how much does the gear change for a pure dps and how often would one switch their spec? On my hybrids, it has been a complete gear change, so now only am I suppose to "suffer" a dps loss, but i'm also expected to foot a 20-50K monetary fee for that completely new gearset?

Personally, I don't mind, as it is part of playing the game, but just throwing it out there for argument sake.

[wushootaki]

FILTHY MUDBLOODS!!!

[serif]

I've never played a pure DPS until now and i'm still leveling, but how much does the gear change for a pure dps and how often would one switch their spec? On my hybrids, it has been a complete gear change, so now only am I suppose to "suffer" a dps loss, but i'm also expected to foot a 20-50K monetary fee for that completely new gearset?

Personally, I don't mind, as it is part of playing the game, but just throwing it out there for argument sake.

20,000 - 50,000g for a new gearset? unless you're buying BoEs off the AH it wouldn't cost that much.

but i feel ya. I play an enhance shaman, and if i want to switch to ele or resto I need all new gear, all new enchants, and all new gems... not cheap (but also not 20-50k. lol) If I was already ele and wanted to switch to resto, it wouldn't have to be a dramatic change of gear... I could do alright with half ele and half resto if i needed to.

[Phantazm]

On my hybrids, it has been a complete gear change, so now only am I suppose to "suffer" a dps loss, but i'm also expected to foot a 20-50K monetary fee for that completely new gearset?

you don't HAVE to spend 20-50k...you could just farm heroics and work your way up the progression line like most other people.

if you have the resources to and choose to buy a whole new set of gear, that's your problem...

[Eletharin]

The hybrid tax is becomming an obsolete idea, though any move to remove it will invoke a huge QQ storm from the "pure" DPS classes as you can see in this thread. The hybrid tax was never about healing though it was about raid utility. A while ago there were a lot of buffs you needed to bring hybrid classes for, and to combat the mindset of only bringing hybrids with their special buffs "pure" DPS classes were given a slight relative boost to make them more attractive. With the homogenization of buffs, this argument is no longer really valid.

"Raid Utility" has morphed into "You can fill multiple roles by respeccing between bosses", but really that doesn't make sense either. In any raid you usually want one swing player (maybe 2 in 25 mans) who can switch DPS->Heal between fights. If the raid has tanks, healers, and the swing, when filling the remaining DPS spots the fact you can respec heals is absolutely meaningless since you will never under any circumstances be asked to. Since the old unique buffs are no longer unique why fill any of these slots with a "hybrid" who is optimally going to perform 5% lower then an alternative "pure"? The exact argument that was used to instate the hybrid tax could now be effectively used to refute it.

However as I said at the start of this post, the QQ storm would be so incredible I doubt the hybrid tax will be removed anytime soon so its probably better to just perform as best you can and hope you can close the 5% gap with your ability as a player.

[Negrido]

I suppose to "suffer" a dps loss, but i'm also expected to foot a 20-50K monetary fee for that completely new gearset?

[serif]

Pure dps has gained more raid utility via buffs, etc.

Hybrids should be awarded more dps since they're slightly less 'special' now.

I do think blizzard is working on it, and they're going in the right direction. As a shaman, I'm pretty happy with my place on recount. I'm not consistently the highest, but occasionally I'll lead on a fight here and there.

I just wish I could get the 'pure' dpsers to be less arrogant about their dps. I guess they have to hold onto something and winning recount is the only thing they have.

[ItachiZaku]

20,000 - 50,000g for a new gearset? unless you're buying BoEs off the AH it wouldn't cost that much.

but i feel ya. I play an enhance shaman, and if i want to switch to ele or resto I need all new gear, all new enchants, and all new gems... not cheap (but also not 20-50k. lol)

Hence the huge margin there. I bought the BoE mail chest for my enh for 8, but then gemming, enchanting, craftables. I figure I put in near 20K, but I know others that'll pump out 12K for a Hilt, 5-10 for as many BoE 264s as possible, 1.5-2K for primordial saronite which is 13 pieces for the legs/boots, shit adds up quick.

Also, not pure out of pocket gold, but turning in frosties from alts, not AHing honor gems etc, cuts into the profits.

[Seraphk]

Pure dps has gained more raid utility via buffs, etc.

Hybrids should be awarded more dps since they're slightly less 'special' now.

I do think blizzard is working on it, and they're going in the right direction. As a shaman, I'm pretty happy with my place on recount. I'm not consistently the highest, but occasionally I'll lead on a fight here and there.

I just with I could get the 'pure' dpsers to be less arrogant about their dps. I guess they have to hold onto something.

As a Shaman, we should be freaking excited about Cata. Walking & casting at the same time.

Who does that? I'll give you a clue. It's a body named no. Nobody.

[serif]

As a Shaman, we should be freaking excited about Cata. Walking & casting at the same time.

Who does that? I'll give you a clue. It's a body named no. Nobody.

except i play enhance, and with Maelstorm I proc insta-casts out my ass all day long... so walking & casting won't make that much difference to me, i already do it.


but yeah, of course I'm excited about Cata... I think if you compare shaman gameplay now to a year and a half ago at the beginning of Wrath, it has changed...A LOT... and almost entirely for the better (at least I think so). I hope that trend continues in cataclysm and they keep making shamans even more fun to play.

[ItachiZaku]

you don't HAVE to spend 20-50k...you could just farm heroics and work your way up the progression line like most other people.

if you have the resources to and choose to buy a whole new set of gear, that's your problem...

I guess it would also depend on if you are expected to be equalily contributing in that offspec. If you roll 4-5 heals in 25 IC and you kick up to 7 for Valithria and they know you have a heal set which is 2200 GS (I know, i know) lower than your main spec, is that really going to help?

[Siri]

Even when ignoring the multiple roles argument the penalty has to remain as it is, especially in the
case of shamans, druids, priests and paladins the "tax" definitely has to stay, they all bring unique buffs
and/or abilities (like CR) that no other class can provide.

I play an spriest.

[Asmo]

Battle Rez is a more flexible soulstone, Heroism/Lust is being given to mages. Paladins do what? Aura Mastery? Raid Wall? Neither is game breakingly OP. The raid utility argument is fairly moot in terms of hybrid taxing.

[Phantazm]

Battle Rez is a more flexible soulstone, Heroism/Lust is being given to mages. Paladins do what? Aura Mastery? Raid Wall? Neither is game breakingly OP. The raid utility argument is fairly moot in terms of hybrid taxing.

yeah, yeah, class-i-play-QQ inc

what about rogues?

and don't give me TOTT is amazing and balances it or the 4% damage combat spec gives a group on a target.

[Asmo]

I was actually just responding to the accusations that hybrids bring unique abilities that warrant a DPs tax, but you can continue to be hostile if you want.

Rogues will be receiving a truly unique ability in the LOS of Smoke bomb. Essentially creating walls where none existed before (In a PvE setting at least). Not saying that it makes up for it, but you asked for a unique ability ( or I assume you did as you inserted yourself into the argument that I was making).

[serif]

Battle Rez is a more flexible soulstone, Heroism/Lust is being given to mages. Paladins do what? Aura Mastery? Raid Wall? Neither is game breakingly OP. The raid utility argument is fairly moot in terms of hybrid taxing.

I thought the mage version of heroism/lust is just going to affect them, rather than being raid wide.