Shoud i a balance druid get a chance to roll / bid on cloth ?

[Mammoth]

And now we get to why DKP is broken.

Everyone ends up sitting on their old, outdated gear, waiting for the BiS to drop. When their BiS finally DOES drop, EVERYONE ELSE bids on it too, because it's THEIR BiS.

This kind of crap holds a guild back.

This is why my class leaders will give a raider a swift kick in the ass if he doesn't ask for an item which is clearly an upgrade. Also fixed DKP per item is better than bids imo.

[Failmuffins]

I don't like the concept of classes using armor that isn't the armor type they're expected to wear, but I understand the advantages. It's going to be nice in Cataclysm where classes will most likely stick to the type of armor they were meant to wear.

[Khanjin]

Only BiS pieces.

[grymgroeth]

So forcing bad gear on players doesn't hold a guild back? Why would I take a piece with the wrong stats on it because its a higher item level? Very short sighted. Don't fault a system because it's not implemented correctly and don't fault players who want BiS gear. If you're happy with just taking whatever to up your gearscore then by all means...

Not perfect != bad. Leather itemization is within a few hundred theoretical dps of cloth itemization for boomkins in ICC. A few hundred theoretical dps for a boomkin is not more important to the raid than a few thousand real dps for the mage, priest or warlock that can only wear cloth. The changes that can be made to minimize spell clipping and rotation prioritys far outweigh the minor differences between leather and cloth for laser chickens.

[alt]

Clothies should have priority.

The problem is if Blizzard puts say, 5 leather caster items on an instance for the resto/balance druids and then 15 cloth caster items for mages/priests/warlocks. If the druids have equal priority with clothies for the cloth gear, the raid ends up sharding a lot of the leather caster items while ensuring that all the mages/priests/warlocks will be perpetually undergeared because they have extra classes competing for their gear.

Blizzard didn't take into account paladins/shamans/druids rolling on cloth gear when coming up with the number of cloth caster gear to put into an instance. It's not like the cloth classes have any chance of having BiS items in every slot anyway. There's already too few cloth drops just for the 3 cloth classes.

[Valanna]

Not perfect != bad. Leather itemization is within a few hundred theoretical dps of cloth itemization for boomkins in ICC. A few hundred theoretical dps for a boomkin is not more important to the raid than a few thousand real dps for the mage, priest or warlock that can only wear cloth. The changes that can be made to minimize spell clipping and rotation prioritys far outweigh the minor differences between leather and cloth for laser chickens.

Quoted for truth.

You guys need to stop whoring, for real. (sorry for the bad language). This wednesday a fury warrior in my guild refused to pass the leather bracers from DBW to a rogue, his argument being it is his BiS. It was ridiculous how frisky he was for that item, when he's replacing that BiS come Ruby Sanctum.Play for your teams - not for you.

Boomkins also have a slightly lower theoretical dps than the cloth dps classes. This leads to that an equally big upgrade in percentage, say 5%, would lead to more raid-wide dps increase if it's given to a clothie.

And on the topic of balance druids - don't you get haste capped with wrath piss-easy?

[boseguy22]

Not perfect != bad. Leather itemization is within a few hundred theoretical dps of cloth itemization for boomkins in ICC. A few hundred theoretical dps for a boomkin is not more important to the raid than a few thousand real dps for the mage, priest or warlock that can only wear cloth. The changes that can be made to minimize spell clipping and rotation prioritys far outweigh the minor differences between leather and cloth for laser chickens.

Lol why are people assuming that the boomkin gets a couple hundred and a mage or lock gets a couple thousand dps increase. If the content being run includes all the best in slot gear, it doenst mean the mage/lock is wearing triumph badge gear or "shudder" naxx gear.

What if the mage/lock is doing the same thing, taking a 264 from spirit/haste/spell power and side stepping to a crit/haste/spell power and it is the boomkin with a 251 piece rolling best in slot 264?

If the guild leader is min/maxing, wouldn't upgrading the boomkin from 10 man to 25 gear be smarter for the guild then the mage/lock side stepping for one more attractive stat?

There is no good reason that a caster shouldn't roll on caster gear that applies to their class (dont let shammys roll on spirit gear lol).

[Hokuto]

Druids use cloth, pallies use mail, and guess what's the BiS gloves for a warrior? Leather gloves. Leather. Gloves.

Clothies should have priority, but booms shouldn't be forbidden to roll.

[alt]

Lol why are people assuming that the boomkin gets a couple hundred and a mage or lock gets a couple thousand dps increase. If the content being run includes all the best in slot gear, it doenst mean the mage/lock is wearing triumph badge gear or "shudder" naxx gear.

What if the mage/lock is doing the same thing, taking a 264 from spirit/haste/spell power and side stepping to a crit/haste/spell power and it is the boomkin with a 251 piece rolling best in slot 264?

If the guild leader is min/maxing, wouldn't upgrading the boomkin from 10 man to 25 gear be smarter for the guild then the mage/lock side stepping for one more attractive stat?

There is no good reason that a caster shouldn't roll on caster gear that applies to their class (dont let shammys roll on spirit gear lol).

Because that is a very rare occurrence. It's just the nature of the beast. There is way more competition for cloth drops than there is for leather drops. A more common occurrence is for leather caster gear to already be sharded while the cloth classes are still in ToC gear.

Unless the balance druid is a recruit or a very, very, very new guild member, there's close to 0% chance that he's still in ilvl 251 gear while all the cloth casters are already at 264. There will always be a cloth caster who doesn't have ilvl 264 who could use the upgrade.

[thatguy181]

I've no issue with it, but you also must realize and accept that Shaman and Paladins could downgrade and use cloth as well, not to mention the few pieces of leather Boomkins like.

I do feel though that the person who can wear that armor type as their max armor type should get priority though. You should never be in a situation where you're not even allowed to throw your name in for the item.

[Shadowysaint]

it's not cataclysm yet. No reason that great items outside of your armor proficiency should be neglected.

[Fuzzzie]

Not perfect != bad. Leather itemization is within a few hundred theoretical dps of cloth itemization for boomkins in ICC. A few hundred theoretical dps for a boomkin is not more important to the raid than a few thousand real dps for the mage, priest or warlock that can only wear cloth. The changes that can be made to minimize spell clipping and rotation prioritys far outweigh the minor differences between leather and cloth for laser chickens.

So a set of cloth bracers can be a 1000 dps increase for a mage or warlock? What gear are you looking at? The idea isn't equipping a boomkin in all cloth gear. Most boomkins are usually 4-5 t10 pieces. So that leaves 3 potential cloth pieces that the boomkin may choose to take.

[Duskstorm]

So a set of cloth bracers can be a 1000 dps increase for a mage or warlock? What gear are you looking at? The idea isn't equipping a boomkin in all cloth gear. Most boomkins are usually 4-5 t10 pieces. So that leaves 3 potential cloth pieces that the boomkin may choose to take.

I think the point is that a cloth not getting to upgrade from ilvl 245 or 251 -> 264 is worse than a boomkin not getting to upgrade from ilvl 264 with average itemization to ilvl 264 with better itemization.

Sometimes I really feel like people don't make anywhere close to an honest effort to understand what the other person is saying; they just look for the first paragraph they can quote and refute it without understanding what is being said at all.

[Fuzzzie]

I think the point is that a cloth not getting to upgrade from ilvl 245 or 251 -> 264 is worse than a boomkin not getting to upgrade from ilvl 264 with average itemization to ilvl 264 with better itemization.

Well obviously... this is where maybe a good raid leader would come into play. The point of the thread is if boomkins should be allowed to roll on cloth period. If a cloth item is BiS for a druid (or leather for a warrior etc etc) then its foolish and short sighted to not allow them to do so. Most players you will come across in a guild raid setting will likely pass loot to a more undergeared player especially with the situation you described (245->264 upgrade vs. 264->264 with more optimized stats).

[alt]

Well obviously... this is where maybe a good raid leader would come into play. The point of the thread is if boomkins should be allowed to roll on cloth period. If a cloth item is BiS for a druid (or leather for a warrior etc etc) then its foolish and short sighted to not allow them to do so. Most players you will come across in a guild raid setting will likely pass loot to a more undergeared player especially with the situation you described (245->264 upgrade vs. 264->264 with more optimized stats).

I'd still say cloth should have priority. Unless the boomkin is a very new member, there's almost never a time when the boomkin is going from 245->264 and the cloth is going from 264->264 with more optimized stats. The boomkin always has less competition for their leather items. Blizzard always creates too few cloth items for the number of cloth classes they have in the game.

[Dominate]

Yes

As soon as most of the itemisation on leather stops being crit/ spirit then I might feel differently. By all means let mages and holy priests be able to wear leather and let the stuff not go to waste. At the moment the crit/ sp itemisation is just unbelieably awful as trees dont want the crit and owls don't want the spirit. Yet I know fire mages and holy priests like the gear.

Not always but yeah, but I'd look at more what stats benefit a player's class/ spec more than armour type. The "omg moonkins shouldn't roll on cloth!" is just ignorant and similarly I'd say the same with warriors on leather etc etc. Saying otherwise is just sort of playing the player yet its the games fault for poor itemisation.

Given that they got rid of the whole "glass cannon" thing and gave all classes comparable damage (a little of a broad generalisation, but I'm ignoring tank/ healing specs and sub par dps ones here) I don't see the point of armour proficiency other than if you're tanking. I've had plenty of whines when playing a druid about wanting a BiS cloth item - I even had whines from a warlock over a spirit/ haste staff when I'm pretty sure a tree druid gets a lot more out of spirit than they do unless they're demo.

All I'm hoping is they work out the awful leather itemisation out before cataclysm or mastery as a boomkin/ tree is going to be a pain.

[Aabrahm]

Scenario: I had some RL issues come up and I ended up missing my Guild's ICC 25 run last week so I pugged it. This very conversation came up in vent. I use some cloth pieces (the crafted icc ones) and I wont hesitate to roll on a cloth upgrade. I tried to keep quiet but these guys were very sure that Boomkins should NEVER wear cloth. So we do 6 bosses in the PUG. I did 9k dps minimum on each boss, no one else came close. I have found the peoplee who fthink that boomkins shouldnt wear cloth, are the ones who cant play. SO i'm not too worried.

[Fuzzzie]

I'd still say cloth should have priority. Unless the boomkin is a very new member, there's almost never a time when the boomkin is going from 245->264 and the cloth is going from 264->264 with more optimized stats. The boomkin always has less competition for their leather items. Blizzard always creates too few cloth items for the number of cloth classes they have in the game.

The example was actually the other way around but I see the point. As far as there being too few cloth items.. well you should join our guild. We shard so much of it. Random loot is random.

[maleita]

NO you should not get a chance to roll on cloth, unless there are no clothies rolling.

Classes that wear cloth should roll on cloth, classes that wear leather roll on leather, otherwise you have 2x more chances to have gear.

Would you like that a elemental shaman roll on your gear?

[Bigjay]

Currently yes it is fine for them to.

However once 3.9 hits ptr, or is within a month or so of release I believe any guild who wants to min/max and do their best will give cloth to clothies before any other class. This goes for cloth to any healer class, or ele shamans. Leather to warriors and Dks or w/e else.

Most min/max guilds will be done with content anyways at this point and just be focusing on cata.

This is of course assuming their mentioned changes are as impactful as they've hinted at.