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  1. #41

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Well, okay.
    That's something that IS imbalanced in my eyes. You cannot dispel a rogues shadow dance or adrenaline rush.
    You cannot dispel a warrior's bladestorm or recklessness or a shaman's wolves or a druid's berserk or a hunter's Beast Within. Some of them have counters, but not as readily available as a simple dispel.

  2. #42

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop
    Back on topic though: I really do not mind this at all.
    It has it's drawbacks, yes... However some other classes have this as well (warrior's shield wall) or other limitations.
    "Some other" classes don't have this, warriors are the ONLY class with anything similar and their lockout period only lasts long enough to prevent those cooldowns from being up all at once, in other words their abilities have a lesser lockout while being harder to dispel (only recklessness can be, which is an enrage). Even with no lockout, a ret pala would in practice be locked out of using wings while bubbled because you'd get next to no benefit from them while doing half damage.

    In arenas if a paladin pops wings it's a double sided blade. You can kill someone fast but also not use your strongest defensive cooldown.
    More like you can get dispelled and zerged fast while throwing away your only defensive cooldown.

    This adds some more proper decision making to PvP so it doesn't turn everything into a "LOLPOPWINGSANDPWNBECAUSEICANBUBBLEIFIMABOUTTODIE" situation.
    Yea it adds the decision of "I can not use my wings so I have bubble usable or I can get owned". A thoroughly interesting and difficult decision that one.

    For PvE it sucks that such an important offensive cooldown is linked to such an important defensive cooldown (and the second most important defensive cooldown as well) but they cannot change this without breaking paladins in PvP.
    Well first of all I couldn't disagree more about breaking us, in fact I lolled pretty hard, but regardless they could pull their head out of their ass and finally admit they can't balance stuff for pvp and pve while keeping everything exactly the same, and instead just remove this retarded shit mechanic everywhere except in arenas and BGs if they really think it's needed for PvP. If they just adopted that as a way to design the game we could have insanely better balance for both PvP and PvE instead of shit for both, and no one would have to rage over PvP balancing fucking their spec up for PvE and vice versa.

  3. #43

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by manageri
    More like you can get dispelled and zerged fast while throwing away your only defensive cooldown.
    Because it gets insta dispelled EVERY time you use it right?
    I don't know about you but not every team carries a class that has dispel without a cooldown (because fel hunters ALWAYS get your wings first right?)

    Quote Originally Posted by manageri
    Even with no lockout, a ret pala would in practice be locked out of using wings while bubbled because you'd get next to no benefit from them while doing half damage.
    Or they could pop wings and hammer something and still bubble if they were about to die.

  4. #44
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    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by manageri
    they could pull their head out of their ass and finally admit they can't balance stuff for pvp and pve while keeping everything exactly the same
    I think they've said that several times. But that's just me being all crazy, reading blue posts and the like.
    If you think you can do a better job at balancing what is essentially 30 classes perfectly in pve and pvp, I heard that Blizz was hiring.

  5. #45
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    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop
    Back on topic though: I really do not mind this at all.
    It has it's drawbacks, yes... However some other classes have this as well (warrior's shield wall) or other limitations.
    The only thing I do not like is not being able to shield wall as a tank after removing a debuff from myself through bubble, but I'll live with it.

    In arenas if a paladin pops wings it's a double sided blade. You can kill someone fast but also not use your strongest defensive cooldown.
    This adds some more proper decision making to PvP so it doesn't turn everything into a "LOLPOPWINGSANDPWNBECAUSEICANBUBBLEIFIMABOUTTODIE" situation.

    For PvE it sucks that such an important offensive cooldown is linked to such an important defensive cooldown (and the second most important defensive cooldown as well) but they cannot change this without breaking paladins in PvP.
    You use to be able to kill someone fast not so much anymore, Wings + Any of our Attacks aren't going to score you a global kill anymore unless all stars are aligned and the gods of RNG are smiling upon us. However just about every class can not only dispel your wings but they can usually kill you in the process and you have nothing to do but run but and running does no good. Sprint/Blink/Disengage/Charge/Blink/Fear/Pounce/Deathgrip and did i miss anything? Nope that covers it all just about every class can cover or catch a Paladin running away.

    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop
    Because it gets insta dispelled EVERY time you use it right?
    I don't know about you but not every team carries a class that has dispel without a cooldown (because fel hunters ALWAYS get your wings first right?)
    Or they could pop wings and hammer something and still bubble if they were about to die.
    Yes actually it does get Dispelled in some fashion every time I use it unless I'm in a lolbg which who cares about those. Apparently you have never Played a Paladin or you wouldn't spew such garbage.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    I think they might, that's why they're so bitter about the 30 second rule... but in the same breath, being bitter about a 30 second rule means you probably aren't very good about popping your cooldowns.

  7. #47
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    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop
    Because it gets insta dispelled EVERY time you use it right?
    I don't know about you but not every team carries a class that has dispel without a cooldown (because fel hunters ALWAYS get your wings first right?)
    Or they could pop wings and hammer something and still bubble if they were about to die.
    Can t rogues pop Adrenaline rush and vanish/eva/CoS right after/during it if they are about to die ?

  8. #48

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Requital
    Yes actually it does get Dispelled in some fashion every time I use it unless I'm in a lolbg which who cares about those. Apparently you have never Played a Paladin or you wouldn't spew such garbage.
    I've played ret/rogue quite a bit. Not too high rated, but I have played.
    Lets see, comps in 2s that cannot dispel wings that easily:

    Warrior/Druid
    Warrior/Paladin
    Ret/Rogue
    Rogue/Druid
    DK/Druid
    Hunter/Druid
    Warrior/Warrior
    Rogue/Rogue
    Lock/Druid
    Rogue/Lock
    Feral/Rogue

    Pretty much any team without a priest, shaman or mage.
    Yes, hunters locks and warriors CAN dispel, however they take a random buff, and with your own buffs and your partner's the chance of that happening aren't stellar.

    Like I said before, I find it stupid it can be dispelled so easily. However don't act like the skill is completely useless.
    I'd say make a deep ret talent for making wings undispellable. But once again, offtopic here.

  9. #49
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    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop
    I've played ret/rogue quite a bit. Not too high rated, but I have played.
    Lets see, comps in 2s that cannot dispel wings that easily:

    Warrior/Druid
    Warrior/Paladin
    Ret/Rogue
    Rogue/Druid
    DK/Druid
    Hunter/Druid
    Warrior/Warrior
    Rogue/Rogue
    Lock/Druid
    Rogue/Lock
    Feral/Rogue

    Pretty much any team without a priest, shaman or mage.
    Yes, hunters locks and warriors CAN dispel, however they take a random buff, and with your own buffs and your partner's the chance of that happening aren't stellar.

    Like I said before, I find it stupid it can be dispelled so easily. However don't act like the skill is completely useless.
    I'd say make a deep ret talent for making wings undispellable. But once again, offtopic here.
    You play with bad players then or your rating isn't high enough to catch smart players.

    Warriors can and do use Shield Slam
    Hunters can and do use Tranquilizing Shot

    So basically the only classes that can't dispel are the ones I covered, While a Druid can cyclone you until DR and waste your wings smart Rogues tend to Blind Rets with AW active or FF them and kill them. Before you get started on the Warrior/Hunter side I play a Warrior and I dispel AW all the time and I played with a Hunter that made perfect use of Tranq.

    In the 2600 3v3 Range it's more dangerous to use it so yes it is pretty useless, If it's purged/dispelled in some way shape or form the debuff should be gone as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
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  10. #50

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalarius
    PvE side:
    Evasion + CoS = you don't die from magical damage (most of the time), and you avoid physical direct attacks.

    PvP side:
    Did you ever tried to kill a rogue who is doing Evasion + CoS ? Yup, it's nearly impossible, moreover, they can also Cold Blood or Vanish right after or during using it

    For paladins ? Oh you used AW ? Too bad you can't bubble to take off Blood debuff on Saurfang, you can't bubble on Lanathel, you can't bubble on Rotface (or Festergut, the one that uses spores).

    Seewutididthar ?
    Cold Blood or Vanish? You're getting me confused here. I've succeded in killing a rogue w/ Evasion and CoS up. It's not even difficult if the rogue isn't good. How could you possibly compare AW with Cold Blood?

    Cold Blood: 100% crit chance on your next offensive attack.
    Avenging Wrath: Increases all damage and healing caused by 20% for 20 sec.
    How is that even remotely similar?

    Where did you get vanish in to the picture? Adrenaline Rush is probably one of the least used skills in PvP, as I told you. Nobody in the top 100 2v2, 3v3 or 5v5 teams with a rogue in it speccs combat.

    Evasion doesn't work from behind. CoS is 90% magical immunity for 5 seconds with a 1.5 (1 if specced) minute cooldown. I'd gladly take Divine Shield over both CoS and Evasion any day. You can't use cloak/evasion to remove the Saurfang mark or to survive Festergut or Rotfaces abilities.

    Obviously, I didn't see what you did there.

  11. #51

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Speaking as a paladin and mage both of which have cooldown lockouts, I see it as balancing and wonder why people get so fussy.

    As a mage we deal with the lockout of AP/PoM in a similar fashion although not forbearance on one but the question remains why people seem to think that this is such a big painful deal on the paladin side.

    So you can't just push all your buttons at once and win, you actually have to...wait wait...gasp THINK about when to use what.

    The bigger key also is that rogues don't get 100% protection from Cloak or Evasion. Evasion can get smacked good by some abilities still (Overpower comes to mind >.>) And ya its a big dodge buff but thats just it, its not 100% either and its not a miss chance its a dodge, so anything that can't be dodge isn't helping them (I forget, ranged attacks like hunters shooting can't be dodged right? Thought I remembered thunderclap being reclassified for that reason for mobs not being able to dodge it.)

    Cloak of shadows is not 100% either. I've caught rogues with spells after they've popped it, heck I've even had a rogue take a tick of consecration after he cloak/vanished. He reappeared after a tick of conse and I giggled madly. I've had rogues cloak vs my mage and I start spamming things like Ice Lance and Arcane Barrage (if I'm in WG as arcane) and i'll have a decent chance of landing one.

    Since we're comparing rogues and pallies though also you need to keep in mind pallies have stronger passive defenses. Plate armor, sacred shield, stuns, touching themselves if need be (or bubble) easily used if not, heals available to all specs in some fashion, auras that provide on the fly assistance for multiple situations, easy removal of poison/disease/magic, easy removal and protection from snares on short cooldown.

    Paladins bring a TON more to the table then rogues do on multiple levels. A rogue just stabs things well, thats what they do. Their toolset is limited passivly on their protection, but their active protections are longer cooldown and not nearly as effective when you stack them up next to a paladin's swath of things they can do, on shorter cooldowns as a whole no less.
    Mage, Priest, Paladin
    And working on a DK!

  12. #52

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Requital
    Warriors can and do use Shield Slam
    Hunters can and do use Tranquilizing Shot
    Because those abilities have NO cooldown and ALWAYS take down the buff you want it to take.

    Like I said:
    Yes, hunters locks and warriors CAN dispel, however they take a random buff, and with your own buffs and your partner's the chance of that happening aren't stellar.

  13. #53
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    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop
    Because those abilities have NO cooldown and ALWAYS take down the buff you want it to take.

    Like I said:
    Yes, hunters locks and warriors CAN dispel, however they take a random buff, and with your own buffs and your partner's the chance of that happening aren't stellar.
    If you say so but it just shows your lack of experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  14. #54

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by manageri
    I don't see hunters losing the use of anything when popping deterrence, same with ice block, all rogue CDs, AMS, and the list goes on.
    You mean besides everything but traps?

  15. #55
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    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    The largest (perceived) problem with Avenging Wrath and Divine Shield is that you're essentially gambling everything on one button push. If you're lucky you end up killing an opponent, and don't need to be able to protect yourself for 30 seconds. If you're unlucky, you don't kill the opponent and are unable to protect yourself using your cooldowns for 30 seconds.

    From a design standpoint, it's generally good practice for players to be able to switch between offensive and defensive strategies immediately. Allowing a Paladin to use Avenging Wrath to attempt to kill an opponent, and then have full immunity to damage immediately after, might not be feasible. However, there's less of a reason to have the 30 second lockout on Divine Protection and Avenging Wrath.

  16. #56

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    The system is outdated, needs attention for cataclysm. All that needs to be said.
    Here's my user friendly signature...enjoy.

  17. #57
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    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by SunstrikeSC
    The system is outdated, needs attention for cataclysm. All that needs to be said.
    If Forbearance is to be removed (which it won't), then the current abilities need to be reworked to match their new cooldown.

    Avenging Wrath: Should not cause Forbearence. Should not lock out or be locked out during other defensive cooldowns.

    Divine Protection: Should not cause Forbearance. Function remains the same, maybe bring the damage reduction down to 40% to be more "in line" with other class's effects (and be bumped up to 50% through Prot talents).

    Divine Shield: Should cause a 30 second Forbearance. Absorbs a specific amount of damage, based on maximum health, while also reducing damage dealt by 50% and causing the player to be immune to debuffs and CC- Rough idea is 150% Max HP absorbed. Lowered cooldown on ability to be more "in line" with other Shield-type spells (either 60 or 90 second cooldown).

    Hand of Protection: Should cause a 30 second Forbearance. Absorbs a specific amount of Physical-only damage, based on the caster's maximum health. Players cannot use Physical attacks while under Hand of Protection.

    Lay on Hands: Should only cause a 30 second Forbearance when used on self, but not on others. Healing done is based on the caster's maximum health, but at a reduced amount (75% or 50%) and as a HoT effect.

  18. #58

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Macabrily
    I think they've said that several times. But that's just me being all crazy, reading blue posts and the like.
    Too bad they haven't started doing it then. Not even gonna get into how they always talk about how they needa consider both parts parts of the game with any change they make etc, so in short, you're just full of shit and you know it.

    If you think you can do a better job at balancing what is essentially 30 classes perfectly in pve and pvp, I heard that Blizz was hiring.
    That's some cool 5 year old logic right there. Me not being able to do something better does not mean I cannot determine if someone else is doing it bad, or that I cannot criticize it. With this logic when a guy who was supposed to repair your car botches the job and your brakes don't work, causing you to get into an accident, the judge can't sentence him if he himself is not a qualified mechanic.

  19. #59
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    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?


  20. #60

    Re: Just wondering... What about avenging wrath?

    Quote Originally Posted by manageri
    With the same logic it was ok for ret paladins to solo three of any other class at the same time too because we aren't them.
    wow...just wow...

    brain gone on vacation?
    Meh

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