DPS increase at 100% ArP over STR

[agonyzt]

Hi!

I've been reading many posts about ArP and they all agree than Warrior should either aim for ArP soft-cap (100% with trinket proc) or hard-cap (100% passive)... Unfortunately, none of these posts includes a comparison with STR. All they claim is that gemming for 100% armor pen is more DPS than gemming pure STR. Fine... but how much?

Let's say Warrior A is at 100% passive ArP (gemmed all out ArP). Warrior B has the EXACT SAME gear than Warrior A but he's stacking STR (gemmed all out STR). Warrior B has around 70% ArP from gear (assuming Warrior A is getting around 30% from gems (19 gems)...). Warrior A and B are played by the SAME person and are on the SAME fight. How much of an increase the player will observe if he's playing Warrior A over Warrior B? 1%? 5%? 10%? 20%?

I can't find the answer anywhere. All I got is: "100% ArP is better than STR" without any proofs or numbers...

Thank you,

- Agonyzt

[Crunchwrap]

Proof is usually a simulator. I don't do all that stuff myself, I just wait for the people who are better at it to figure it out...but when it's all said and done I take their word for it unless I can clearly tell that they are wrong.

[phantomlink]

I took my warrior ( hard cap ) and replaced all my gems with str and it matched what you said (70% arp from gear)

The image is taken from the spreadsheet, top image is hardcap, bottom image is pure str



300 dps on the spreadsheet tends to translate to a nice increase in overall damage ( sometimes more then 300 )

[agonyzt]

I've done a quick test with Landsoul's spreadsheet and here are my results:

With ArP soft-cap (using NES) and 10 ArP gem... 9138 DPS.
Gemming all out STR... 9118 DPS.

It's a 20 DPS increase... 0.2193% increase! OMG! It's worth 1.5k gold of Cardinal Ruby!!!
/sarcasm off

0.22% DPS increase is def not worth the trouble of regemming each time I change a piece to make sure I don't go over 100%...

This is for soft-cap, I'll do some simulation with the hard-cap later.

[phantomlink]

I've done a quick test with Landsoul's spreadsheet and here are my results:

With ArP soft-cap (using NES) and 10 ArP gem... 9138 DPS.
Gemming all out STR... 9118 DPS.

It's a 20 DPS increase... 0.2193% increase! OMG! It's worth 1.5k gold of Cardinal Ruby!!!
/sarcasm off

0.22% DPS increase is def not worth the trouble of regemming each time I change a piece to make sure I don't go over 100%...

Your original post was regarding hardcap vs pur str. There is a large, large difference in damage between hard cap and softcapping. If you are softcapping your ARP then in most cases all your gems are already STR

[agonyzt]

I took my warrior ( hard cap ) and replaced all my gems with str and it matched what you said (70% arp from gear)

The image is taken from the spreadsheet, top image is hardcap, bottom image is pure str



300 dps on the spreadsheet tends to translate to a nice increase in overall damage ( sometimes more then 300 )

We are talking about a ~3% DPS increase... hum... not sure if it's really worth the "trouble". From a min/maxing stand point it might be worth it but for the majority of ppl I'm not sure...

Thank you for sharing your results!

So far we have:
Gemming for ArP soft-cap over STR: 0.22% DPS increase
Gemming for ArP hard-cap over STR: 2.92% DPS increase

[agonyzt]

Your original post was regarding hardcap vs pur str. There is a large, large difference in damage between hard cap and softcapping. If you are softcapping your ARP then in most cases all your gems are already STR

Yeah I know, I should have specified both soft-cap and hard-cap in the title :P

[Brandyuk]

To agonyzt:

Nice to see theres more people with same opinion as me, just not trusting everything like a blind sheep.

One thing people usualy forget is that Warrior don't have to go 100% ArP since theres effects like Sunder Armor, Faeric Fire.

To phantomlink:

Did you have Sunder Armor and Faeric Fire in that Calculation? Since thoose 2 will benefit the guy with 70% ArP more then the guy with 100% ArP since he have already reached the cap. And please link the page u did use for that test.

[agonyzt]

To agonyzt:

Nice to see theres more people with same opinion as me, just not trusting everything like a blind sheep.

One thing people usualy forget is that Warrior don't have to go 100% ArP since theres effects like Sunder Armor, Faeric Fire.

To phantomlink:

Did you have Sunder Armor and Faeric Fire in that Calculation? Since thoose 2 will benefit the guy with 70% ArP more then the guy with 100% ArP since he have already reached the cap. And please link the page u did use for that test.

Sunder Armor and FF shouldn't affect ArP at all (it may changes the calculation a bit but meh). Let's say a boss have 10k armor. SAx5 = 20% reduction, FF = 5% reduction. The boss now has 10k * 0.80 * 0.95 = 7.6k armor. 100% ArP will ignore up to 100% of the remaining 7.6k armor.

The "page" he used is the Landsoul's spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t37462-w...n_spreadsheet/

[phantomlink]

To agonyzt:

Nice to see theres more people with same opinion as me, just not trusting everything like a blind sheep.

One thing people usualy forget is that Warrior don't have to go 100% ArP since theres effects like Sunder Armor, Faeric Fire.

To phantomlink:

Did you have Sunder Armor and Faeric Fire in that Calculation? Since thoose 2 will benefit the guy with 70% ArP more then the guy with 100% ArP since he have already reached the cap. And please link the page u did use for that test.

I used Landsoul's spreadsheet found on ElitistJerks

As for the comment about Sunder. Theres no difference between using sunder with 70% arp, and 100% arp. Sunder/Faerie Fire take effect before your personal ARP kicks in.

100% ARP hitting a boss with 10000 armor is the same as 100% arp hitting a boss with 8000 armor ( sunders up )

[agonyzt]

I would like to see more results from players with different level/combination of gear so we can have a more general overview of the DPS increase!

Pretty hard to extrapolate from only 2 samples...

[agonyzt]

I've done the test using the all-mighty Landsoul's armory. Here are the results:

100% ArP: 14317.8546 DPS
All out STR: 13940.5232 DPS

Increase: 2.7067%.

Seems like 2.92% is the absolute maximum gain so far...

[rabbimojo]

I would like to see more results from players with different level/combination of gear so we can have a more general overview of the DPS increase!

Pretty hard to extrapolate from only 2 samples...

If you want different gearsets, bust out the spreadsheet and stuff different gear in it. ;P
The reason nobody gives explicit results is because it varies depending on, y'know, everything. Arp scaling isn't linear, so all people can really give is their particular data point, which isn't that useful.

Even with a lot of responses, you won't be able to extrapolate in a way more useful than just charting the functions we know for DPS scaling for each stat, because that's what the data points will reflect anyways.

To agonyzt:

Nice to see theres more people with same opinion as me, just not trusting everything like a blind sheep.
...

It's healthy to question the established order, if only because "the established order" tends to lag behind on changing knowledge and also abstracts away a lot of caveats and details to get a clear message. Most competent players do their own thinking already.

Those who don't are often either A) too busy to bother, or B) content with getting "really close" by following the crowd. You don't need to have such venom for them.

[Wesz]

Not trolling or anything here, just wanna say with that kinda attitude you won't get into a good guild.
If you're playing this game for raiding, and doing damage (which presumably you are) aren't you suppost to do whatever it takes to do more damage? Play your role at it's best?
It's just my 2 cents, i say do some herois and bgs, grab some arpen gems and go to town on that arp cap.

ps, 300 on a simulator can usually be more, it's very situational on the boss fight but it could be quite abit.

[agonyzt]

The reason nobody gives explicit results is because it varies depending on, y'know, everything. Arp scaling isn't linear, so all people can really give is their particular data point, which isn't that useful.

Yeah I agree, but it's still possible to give an average percentage as guideline. I've tried different gear combination with the Landsoul's spreadsheet and I've yet to find a case where 100% ArP >3% DPS increase over STR. Imo, the guides should include some numbers to support their idea instead of saying ArP > STR :P

In the case 100% ArP cannot be more of a 3% DPS increase, I'm pretty sure a bunch of ppl won't even bother regemming all their gear to reach 100% passive ArP.

[agonyzt]

ps, 300 on a simulator can usually be more, it's very situational on the boss fight but it could be quite abit.

or it can be less...

[rabbimojo]

Yeah I agree, but it's still possible to give an average percentage as guideline. I've tried different gear combination with the Landsoul's spreadsheet and I've yet to find a case where 100% ArP >3% DPS increase over STR. Imo, the guides should include some numbers to support their idea instead of saying ArP > STR :P
...

Maybe... I think the guides are written with two groups in mind:
1) People who do their own research
2) People who just want the results

There may be a significant portion of people between that, such that adding more detail to existing guides (or creating separate partially detailed guides) could be of use. Not sure many would agree, though.

Personally, I think arp vs. strength is one of those topics that should be addressed in slightly more detail even in simple guides, if only because it's so central to understanding warriors currently. This is what's nice about sites that support tags to encapsulate stuff that may not be interesting to everyone.

...
In the case 100% ArP cannot be more of a 3% DPS increase, I'm pretty sure a bunch of ppl won't even bother regemming all their gear to reach 100% passive ArP.

In general, it's rare that a full regemming is valuable, no matter what class or spec, or what change prompted it. These rules exist to provide guidance when you acquire new gear and go to buy a gem. Both gems should be similarly priced, so from that perspective, switching to ArP gradually is just free DPS.

[smartAXE]

300 dps is quite a bit for just choosing a diff red gem cut
thats why its better, costs the same amount of gold either way

[agonyzt]

Not trolling or anything here, just wanna say with that kinda attitude you won't get into a good guild.
If you're playing this game for raiding, and doing damage (which presumably you are) aren't you suppost to do whatever it takes to do more damage? Play your role at it's best?

Yeah I agree. If my Warrior was my main, I'd prolly go all out ArP to have this ~3% DPS increase! As I'm pugging from time to time with this alt, the trouble of regemming ArP is prolly not worth it based on the result obtained here...

As I said before, I'm only trying to have a general idea of the DPS increase. Some ppl claims their DPS got buffed by 2k only regemming ArP and the others are like WOWWWWW I'M GONNA REGEM NOW! If they knew their 1.5k gold worth of gem is only going to provide a ~3% increase... I'm not sure they would.

Again, it's from a casual/alt stand point. Someone looking for serious progression should def "play his role at it's best"!

[Valistryx]

At my level (just short of hard capping), ArP is about 40% stronger per point than strength.

And yes, as Fury you need 100% from gear, as Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire do not count towards your Armor Pen rating, but actually make it stronger by reducing the boss's armor to a level closer to the point where 100% ArP would reduce their Armor to 0.