DPS increase at 100% ArP over STR

[Fishbeans]

There seem to be a lot of people who really have no idea how armor penetration works, and are parroting incorrect information. Well, I'm here to clear things up.

This is exactly how it works, and is not up for debate. The formula was posted by GC months ago.

At 100% armor penetration, you do not ignore 100% of the target's armor. That's what the "up to" is in there for. You actually ignore substantially less than that. Depending on level and armor, there is a set amount that can be ignored. Your armor penetration on your gear ignores a percentage of this modified number, not the boss's raw armor value.

Armor debuffs like sunder, however, do act on the raw armor value of the boss. This makes the final amount of armor ignored quite a bit higher, even at 100% armor penetration (in fact, these debuffs become more important the more armor penetration you have).

If you care about the formulas, read on. Otherwise, there's nothing left for you in this post.

The total amount of armor which can be ignored is (boss armor + 16635) / 3. Bosses have 13083 armor these days (I believe this is uniform across all bosses), so we can get a hard and fast rule from this.

Ignorable Armor = (13083 + 16635) / 3 = 9906

So, at 100% armor penetration, you ignore 9906 armor on a boss with no armor debuffs. That leaves 3177 armor still on the boss. How about with sunder and FF for 25% armor reduction?

Ignorable Armor = ((13083 * 0.75) + 16635) / 3 = 8815.75

Wait, that's less armor ignore! Well, yes, it is, but what about the final armor of the boss? Since 25% of the armor was removed by debuffs, that's 8815.75 armor out of 9812.25, or 996.5 armor after penetration. Adding sunders and FF on top of 100% armor penetration knocks off another 2200 or so armor.

So yes, even at 100% armor penetration, you want armor debuffs.

[Brandyuk]

It really makes me want to pull out my hair when people think sunders and FFF aren't needed when you have 100% arpen from gear. Learn to fking read. It says "up to". Even with FFF and sunder and 100% arpen, you are not ignoring -all- of the armor on a boss; There's a small amount left, but its still not zero.. Please look up armor pen theorycraft and do your homework. I'm sick of explaining it to these mouthbreathers.

Not my fault that GC made a game with text and game flaws is it?

Usualy when people write 100% it is usualy the whole thing. Like saying this chair is made to 100% Wood, but if GC wanted to be specific about Armor then he should have said that the ArP only reduces 90% of Boss armor etc.

Since 100% Reduce on Something that is 100% = 0

And GC have never said in any post that i have seen that bosses has over 100% or that they have specific armorms.

[Brandyuk]

There seem to be a lot of people who really have no idea how armor penetration works, and are parroting incorrect information. Well, I'm here to clear things up.

This is exactly how it works, and is not up for debate. The formula was posted by GC months ago.

At 100% armor penetration, you do not ignore 100% of the target's armor. That's what the "up to" is in there for. You actually ignore substantially less than that. Depending on level and armor, there is a set amount that can be ignored. Your armor penetration on your gear ignores a percentage of this modified number, not the boss's raw armor value.

Armor debuffs like sunder, however, do act on the raw armor value of the boss. This makes the final amount of armor ignored quite a bit higher, even at 100% armor penetration (in fact, these debuffs become more important the more armor penetration you have).

If you care about the formulas, read on. Otherwise, there's nothing left for you in this post.

The total amount of armor which can be ignored is (boss armor + 16635) / 3. Bosses have 13083 armor these days (I believe this is uniform across all bosses), so we can get a hard and fast rule from this.

Ignorable Armor = (13083 + 16635) / 3 = 9906

So, at 100% armor penetration, you ignore 9906 armor on a boss with no armor debuffs. That leaves 3177 armor still on the boss. How about with sunder and FF for 25% armor reduction?

Ignorable Armor = ((13083 * 0.75) + 16635) / 3 = 8815.75

Wait, that's less armor ignore! Well, yes, it is, but what about the final armor of the boss? Since 25% of the armor was removed by debuffs, that's 8815.75 armor out of 9812.25, or 996.5 armor after penetration. Adding sunders and FF on top of 100% armor penetration knocks off another 2200 or so armor.

So yes, even at 100% armor penetration, you want armor debuffs.

Ty for this, so basicly boss has 2 diffrent armors but GC has so far what i seen never said it so people think the bosses have 1 armor and thats why people think armor should be at 0 when they reduce armor by 100% thanks to ArP. And thats why some people say Sunder and FF is useless for a hard capped ArP.

Since th Game creater can't even come out with all necessary information.

[Alianthos]

Ty for this, so basicly boss has 2 diffrent armors but GC has so far what i seen never said it so people think the bosses have 1 armor and thats why people think armor should be at 0 when they reduce armor by 100% thanks to ArP. And thats why some people say Sunder and FF is useless for a hard capped ArP.

Since th Game creater can't even come out with all necessary information.

Basically, yes, the biggest part of the number crunching was done by fans, using dummies situation for many hours and pulling numbers out of statistics.

[omglazor]

To phantomlink:

Did you have Sunder Armor and Faeric Fire in that Calculation? Since thoose 2 will benefit the guy with 70% ArP more then the guy with 100% ArP since he have already reached the cap. And please link the page u did use for that test.

GTFO. I wrote about this like... half a year ago in the sticky. READ THE STICKY.

RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE

[Starsoo]

Ty for this, so basicly boss has 2 diffrent armors but GC has so far what i seen never said it so people think the bosses have 1 armor and thats why people think armor should be at 0 when they reduce armor by 100% thanks to ArP. And thats why some people say Sunder and FF is useless for a hard capped ArP.

Since th Game creater can't even come out with all necessary information.

It isn't GC fault if players never actually research their class/stats or any mechanics in the game. If you actually read into this stuff, you would understand. I know it never mentions it outside of forums like these, but you can't go blaming GC because you didn't care to research things, especially when they are stickied in the thread you talk in.

@agonyzt
It seems your issue is that you regemmed ArP and did not see a high dps increase. Do you have accurate numbers before regemming to compare this to? Keep in mind, ICC provides a 20% buff, so don't compare things from ICC to things outside of ICC. Also, just because one stat gives an overall better dps outcome doesn't mean the player will be able to see that outcome. Following through on your rotation, managing rage (not that hard anymore), and dpsing while being mobile are all huge factors in what your overall dps will be. If you cannot do all 3 of those, regemming is not going to help your dps. Certain fights will provide a better outcome of overall dps when ArP hard-capped than others. I am not sure whether you have made it to those fights or not. But either way, if you are ever intending to get anywhere in this game, end-game content wise, you should never try and find excuses not to avoid small dps gains, when it is as simple as switching your gems.

[Sufferings]

So to sum up this thread:
OP gems ArP, because he just assumes everyone saying it's better much mean a GIANT 50% DPS GAIN!!!!

OP comes to these forums after not seeing a couple thousand dps increase from changing a few gems, asking for other people to put gear into sims/spreadsheets, because he is to lazy to find out for himself what the real benefit is.

OP then assumes that unless regemming is a GIANT INCREASE, it is not worth it.

-_-

Listen, bottom line is it IS better to gem hardcap ArP over just gemming pure strength. When you are in a serious raiding guild, 1% more dps is more than enough reason to regem. When your entire guild is constantly min-maxing for that last 1% dps, it is a big difference in the end.

Also, your view about how ArP works with Sunder/FF is completely wrong. You toss off comments at others for "following like sheep" about ArP being better, yet you refuse to not just to do the research on ArP yourself, you refuse to even look into how it effects our dps in comparison to other buffs.

[Battousai]

Also wanted to point out that thats the increase in a single target encounter. Anytime you get to cleave...that 300 becomes a lot more. LK...Sindragosa...Valithria...Deathwhisper...Marrowgar...all come to mind.

Its gonna be more than 300.

Sidenote: Aside from that, as a fury warrior myself I can tell you that a 300 dps increase is a big upgrade...its like a full tier upgrade on one piece of equipment. Its like going from reg T9 to Reg T10...in gems...just gems. It seems a small price to pay..especially since I haven't bought an epic gem in months. Run the daily heroic...do the pvp quests that don't even involve you participating in wg, do the weekly raid, mine for titanium, mute blue gems into epics using eternals bought from frozen orbs.

I'm a min maxer however...I've switched out entire gearsets and regemmed and chanted for <50dps before.

[Becvar]

I can't give you hard numbers from a spreadsheet, but I can tell you from my own experience that going from almost soft capped with NES and gemmed Str to full hard capped ArP my dps in ICC has increased dramatically. When I started ICC25, I was soft capped, and averaged around 6k dps on boss fights. I now run 9-10k with hard cap. Yes, I've gotten some gear upgrades along the way, obviously, but not enough to justify a 50% dps increase. Some I attribute to getting better at playing the toon (he'd been retired for a long time and was prot for most of Wrath) the rest is the ArP. My AP now is actually still around 1000 lower than when I was soft capped and gemmed for Str. Based on my own experience, IN THE GAME, not on a spreadsheet, I would tell ANY Fury Warrior to switch from Str gems to ArP gems as soon as he can go from soft cap to near hard cap (1200+ ArP rating). It's worth it.

[Kysimir]

Also wanted to point out that thats the increase in a single target encounter. Anytime you get to cleave...that 300 becomes a lot more. LK...Sindragosa...Valithria...Deathwhisper...Marrowgar...all come to mind.

Its gonna be more than 300.

Sidenote: Aside from that, as a fury warrior myself I can tell you that a 300 dps increase is a big upgrade...its like a full tier upgrade on one piece of equipment. Its like going from reg T9 to Reg T10...in gems...just gems. It seems a small price to pay..especially since I haven't bought an epic gem in months. Run the daily heroic...do the pvp quests that don't even involve you participating in wg, do the weekly raid, mine for titanium, mute blue gems into epics using eternals bought from frozen orbs.

I'm a min maxer however...I've switched out entire gearsets and regemmed and chanted for <50dps before.

I do this on a very routine (almost weekly) basis. It's slowed down dramatically lately, and I only have one more change coming up, but it'll effect 5 pieces of gear. :?

<3 Min/Maxing.

[Nakkí]

One thing people usualy forget is that Warrior don't have to go 100% ArP since theres effects like Sunder Armor, Faeric Fire.

One thing you obviously forgot, is that Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire do not give any ArP. Period.

These effects reduce the target's armor value prior to the calculation of ArP, and thus affect required ArP values in no way.

Say we have a boss with 10 000 armor. We add five sunders for a drop of 20%.

The boss now has 8 000 armor.

-> Only now ArP is factored in.

[Devlin1991]

Also wanted to point out that thats the increase in a single target encounter. Anytime you get to cleave...that 300 becomes a lot more. LK...Sindragosa...Valithria...Deathwhisper...Marrowgar...all come to mind.

Its gonna be more than 300.

Sidenote: Aside from that, as a fury warrior myself I can tell you that a 300 dps increase is a big upgrade...its like a full tier upgrade on one piece of equipment. Its like going from reg T9 to Reg T10...in gems...just gems. It seems a small price to pay..especially since I haven't bought an epic gem in months. Run the daily heroic...do the pvp quests that don't even involve you participating in wg, do the weekly raid, mine for titanium, mute blue gems into epics using eternals bought from frozen orbs.

I'm a min maxer however...I've switched out entire gearsets and regemmed and chanted for <50dps before.

Oh the joy of being at ~100% arp with a mix of arp/str/str-crit/exp gems.. every dame time I upgrade one bit of gear I end up replacing 3-5 gems to get back on caps.

I checked for me with the 20% buff its ~320dps upgrade for me to have my arp gems (only about 1/2 my gems are arp) 320 dps from about 12 gems is MASSIVE it was around 22dps a gem in dps loss for my to switch them to STR in the spreadsheet. 320 dps is the same as going from a 277 main hand to a 264 main hand. Its a massive difference for little effort on your part.

[Becvar]

Oh the joy of being at ~100% arp with a mix of arp/str/str-crit/exp gems.. every dame time I upgrade one bit of gear I end up replacing 3-5 gems to get back on caps.

Lol, that's where the joy of having a transmute spec alchemist alt comes in! FREE GEMS!!!!

[Alianthos]

Lol, that's where the joy of having a transmute spec alchemist alt comes in! FREE GEMS!!!!

Or beeing a guild officer. Free mats ! ;D

[Starsoo]

Or beeing a guild officer. Free mats ! ;D

If we donate 100g a week to the guild, we get free flasks/enchants/gems whenever

[Amaranth]

The gain depends entirely on your gear. I maintain my ArP cap WITH several STR gems, so those few STR gems count for much more than they would if my attacks WEREN'T bypassing (almost) all a boss's armor.

The difference between STR and ArP is that the more ArP you have (i.e. closer to cap you are) the better each point becomes, whereas the more STR you have, gemming for more becomes less and less appealing since it translates purely into AP, rather than ArP allowing what STR you have to count for a shitload more.

My point is once you can achieve ArP cap and then some, STR becomes super-crazy-awesome rather than just "OK cool I'll just stack more of this "