the Alliance still have ownership rights to Lordaeron

[Tirrath]

No one forced Kael'thas to ally with demon serving Naga Besides I'm starting to think Garithos may have been a good judge of character. He didn't like Kael'thas and look what became of Kael'thas... same with Sylvanas. Hrmm....

Well to be honest Kael'thas turned out that way because Garithos betrayed him, and he was forced to follow Illidan. For one, it was his only way of survival for his people, as the Alliance of Lordaeron would hunt 'em down and kill them all again. Besides he cant turn his back on the people who saved his life...unlike Garithos >

[Haven]

By turning on the nations army? By handing their "own" nation over to a Elven banshee not welcome in her own lands? That not protecting. Thats conquering.

They are the nation's army as well. No one handed leadership over to Sylvanas, she took it herself and succeeded in most of her efforts by that point. Whether she was or was not welcome anywhere is not relevant.

No...because the people of Ambermill and Southshore and Hillsbrad and tarren Mill and Strom and so on were there and are living in their homes.

They are Alliance. Alliance is the enemy of the Forsaken. Enemies are meant to be dispatched. Makes sense.

Garithos did nothing to break his side of the deal. The worst that can be said is that he may have attacked if the Forsaken broke their side. No provokation and Garithos upheld his side of the bargain. Rregardless of hwo you feel about him, the Forsaken did strike first and they struck without any cause other than a desire to take the city for themselves.

Now here we go, same old song again. "But Garithos upheld his part of the bargain!". Bad news - he wrote his death sentence when he set the conditions of that bargain totally one-sided. You try to imply that at least keeping his end of a totally ridiculous bargain into which he put nothing but his stupid arrogance makes him good, or right. I call that shittin'. The reason Forsaken killed him and all of his men is too super obvious - because those humans would never allow them to live on their own land. As I said, there were two parties with equal "claims" and abilities. They go hostile, one of them wins, hooray. The losing one carried blue badges, well, bad for us all, now Alliance will be bitchin'. What's to complain about?

[Tirrath]

The Blood Elves joined the Horde because, much like the Alliance, they threw a big hissy fit and blamed the entire human population for Arthas.

Wth? Learn facts please...the Blood Elves joined the Horde BECAUSE GARITHOS, who was SUPPOSED to be the Grand Marshal, a.k.a highest ranked Alliance official in Lordaeron, tried to have them all killed and sent them on suicide missions. Does anyone remember that well, Quel'thalas was destroyed...and instead of saving only his people, Kael'thas tried to help other people affected by the Scourge, and even had his strongest warriors with him!

[Tirrath]

Or murdering a man caring for Lordaeron refugees.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Hearts_of_the_Pure

Sort of irrelevant considering they're Warlocks...warlocks are evil in any faction.

[Tirrath]

Please focus on the subject. Here is an example of dissertation about the topic in question:Alleria Windrunner will appear later, and under her command she will join all the High Elves of the Alliance, and then the High Elves once again will march to war with the Alliance and will recover the lands of Quel'Thalas, the High Elves of the Alliance will recover their lands and the demonic elves will be expelled from Silvermoon (now known as Crimsonmoon) and then the Alliance will be complete

The "demonic" elves are now pure, considering the events of the Sunwell. The High Elves have no reason to invade their cousins who rightfully hold the capital city, seeing as most High Elves fled or had help when the Scourge invaded. In case anyone knows btw, the Blood Elves are in lore, the strongest of the two, they survived a magical addiction that could, quite literally, reduce them to mindless savages. Most high elves however are well...lucky.

[Talen]

They are the nation's army as well.

No, actually they weren't. They were part of the enemy forces the Lordaeranian army was fighting.

They are Alliance. Alliance is the enemy of the Forsaken. Enemies are meant to be dispatched. Makes sense.

That is not at issue. The point being made is that the Forsaken are being "hunted" by the Alliance largely because the Forsaken have made themseleves enemies of the Alliance and proven themselves untrustworthy and unable to hold to any deal when it becomes a burden to them. The Forsaken have gone out of their way to attack Alliance protected Lordearanian towns and settlements. The Alliance may nto like the Undead, butt hey ahve shown an abilityt o work with them. The Forsakens issue is that the Forsaken are aggressors.

Bad news - he wrote his death sentence when he set the conditions of that bargain totally one-sided.

I'll help you kill your enemies inside Capital City if you help me recapture it is not actually an unfair bargain.

The reason Forsaken killed him and all of his men is too super obvious - because those humans would never allow them to live on their own land.

Regardless of whatehr that may or may not be true, the simple fact is Graithos upheld his bargian. Sylvanas did not. Garithos told the Forsaken to leave the city as they had agreed to do so. Sylvanas killed him and butchered his troops. Garithos was successful at protecting Lordaranian lands and people. Sylvanas killed him and his forces.

At what point during all this is the Alliance expected to say "Yep. Our bad. We understand completely. Here, lets be friends."

EJL

[Haven]

No, actually they weren't. They were part of the enemy forces the Lordaeranian army was fighting.

Whoa! Now you call Forsaken Scourge. Cool stroy bro.

That is not at issue. The point being made is that the Forsaken are being "hunted" by the Alliance largely because the Forsaken have made themseleves enemies of the Alliance and proven themselves untrustworthy and unable to hold to any deal when it becomes a burden to them. The Forsaken have gone out of their way to attack Alliance protected Lordearanian towns and settlements. The Alliance may nto like the Undead, butt hey ahve shown an abilityt o work with them. The Forsakens issue is that the Forsaken are aggressors.

/facepalm. Here we go again. *in Tarantino's voice* Dealdealdealdealdealdealdeal. You keep pretending that that stupid agreement mattered. That deal was against the rules from Garithos' side.

I'll help you kill your enemies inside Capital City if you help me recapture it is not actually an unfair bargain.

You save my life and help me defeat our mutual enemies and then get the fuck out of your homeland, become hobos or whatever, I don't give a fuck, I take it all for myself. Fair indeed.

Regardless of whatehr that may or may not be true, the simple fact is Graithos upheld his bargian. Sylvanas did not. Garithos told the Forsaken to leave the city as they had agreed to do so. Sylvanas killed him and butchered his troops. Garithos was successful at protecting Lordaranian lands and people. Sylvanas killed him and his forces.

Lol, by being Detheroc's slave?

At what point during all this is the Alliance expected to say "Yep. Our bad. We understand completely. Here, lets be friends."

At none. It's war, and who the hell needs the damn admittance from those hypocritical holier-than-thou triumphalist assholes?

[darkriver41]

Yes.

What?

[Altorin]

They can take it from our cold dead fingers I guess.

[Talthaeran]

One thing to note is that there are a few quests involving acquiring deeds to land within the territories of Lordaeron. Considering that both Forsaken and Humans are involved in trying to grab those deeds, it strongly suggests that Lordaeron does belong to those who have said deeds.

In some cases this will be the Forsaken. In other cases, this will be the Humans who fled to save their hides (most likely taking the deeds with them) and thus preventing themselves from being slain and reanimated.

[Talen]

Whoa! Now you call Forsaken Scourge. Cool stroy bro.

In case you missed it...they were the Scourge. They were the enemy the Lordaeranians were trying to stop overruning their nation. And, in case it isn't obvious, ever since they've regained their freewill...they've largely been acting the same way.

/facepalm. Here we go again. *in Tarantino's voice* Dealdealdealdealdealdealdeal. You keep pretending that that stupid agreement mattered. That deal was against the rules from Garithos' side.

Of course it matters. Garithos made a deal. Sylvanas broke it. In doing so, she killed off an army of Lordaeran directly acting against the nation the Forsaken now seek to claim, she showed herself totally without honour, made a military enemy out of the Alliance and ensured no human would ever trust a Forsaken again.

How can you pretend her choice, which resulted in the death of a force known for successfully fighting the Scourge, and dooming who knows how many people to death and undeath, would be seen by the Alliance as anything other than the vilest sort of treachery and force mark her and the Forsaken as untrustworthy?

At none. It's war, and who the hell needs the damn admittance from those hypocritical holier-than-thou triumphalist assholes?

As I said....the Forsaken hold Lordaeron mainly by right of conquest and possession.

EJL

[Haven]

In case you missed it...they were the Scourge. They were the enemy the Lordaeranians were trying to stop overruning their nation. And, in case it isn't obvious, ever since they've regained their freewill...they've largely been acting the same way.

Super cool story bro. When should I start calling Alliance Scourge as well? 'cause, you know, it's mostly human necromancers from the said Lordaeron... Same way you say? Raising armies of undead? Killing all the living without descretion? Bro, chill out with your prosecutional crap already.

Of course it matters. Garithos made a deal. Sylvanas broke it.

Every Alliance fanboy keeps saying that. That's because there is absolutely nothing, including the nature and conditions of the deal itself, that can be used to protect your sweet hero Garithos and the shiny image of Alliance.

In doing so, she killed off an army of Lordaeran directly acting against the nation the Forsaken now seek to claim, she showed herself totally without honour, made a military enemy out of the Alliance and ensured no human would ever trust a Forsaken again.

You keep stubbornly avoiding the fact thet Forsaken are also lordaeronians. Like Garithos showed himself as a paragon of honor. Inb4 you say "but he kept to the deal=>he's good and Sylvanas is evul!!!".

the nation the Forsaken now seek to claim

Dude. They are that nation as well. In essence, that nation ceased to exist as a whole, and was split into Forsaken and Garithos' army + Scarlets. One of them turned out to be arrogant imbecile assholes, another - to be cunning and victorious assholes. All fair.

How can you pretend her choice, which resulted in the death of a force known for successfully fighting the Scourge, and dooming who knows how many people to death and undeath, would be seen by the Alliance as anything other than the vilest sort of treachery and force mark her and the Forsaken as untrustworthy?

Grats on calling mind slavery successful again, dude. Lordaeron's army failed miserably against dreadlords, only Sylvanas' intervention saved their sorry asses.

As I said....the Forsaken hold Lordaeron mainly by right of conquest and possession.

Like Alliance held it by a different right. That was Amani's land to begin with.

[Talen]

Super cool story bro. When should I start calling Alliance Scourge as well? 'cause, you know, it's mostly human necromancers from the said Lordaeron... Same way you say? Raising armies of undead? Killing all the living without descretion? Bro, chill out with your prosecutional crap already.

Unfortunately for you, the answer is never. There is a difference between a few individuals...and they were a few individuals...and the entire faction.

Every Alliance fanboy keeps saying that. That's because there is absolutely nothing, including the nature and conditions of the deal itself, that can be used to protect your sweet hero Garithos and the shiny image of Alliance.

Whos trying to protect him?

You keep stubbornly avoiding the fact thet Forsaken are also lordaeronians. Like Garithos showed himself as a paragon of honor. Inb4 you say "but he kept to the deal=>he's good and Sylvanas is evul!!!".

Sylvanas, in game, is as evil as the Scourge itself. Main difference is that she has less power behind her. Given her penchant for killing off the living, murder, torture, slavery, mind control, genocide and the like there ISN'T a lot of difference. Garithos, however, wasn't good. He was a racist snob. HE was also the leader of the Lordaeranian army, hew as successful at protecting the land from the Scourge, he did win victories and he did lead the a major mportion of the Lordaeranian army...which these Lordaeranians fought against. At best....that downright rebellion agaisnt lawful authority. And they did so on the say so on a High Elf.

As for the deal itself...the point is that she broke it. She broke it in a manner that suited her, that killed off who knows how many humans, that remoevd a major threat from the Scourge in the area and showed that she was untrustworthy and selfserving. She killed off the protectors of the living and initiated a war against them. And then complains that people treat the Forsaken as hostile and unfriendly.

Grats on calling mind slavery successful again, dude. Lordaeron's army failed miserably against dreadlords, only Sylvanas' intervention saved their sorry asses.

Which doesn't answer the question. Garithos army failed vs Dreadlords. It was still seen as successful. Why should the Alliance trust someone who broke a truce and killed off a successful field commander and his army and captured a city the Allainces views as its spiritual home? Why should the Alliance or ANY human or living creature trust the Forsaken? They have yet to show ANY marked difference in attitude or activity that differentiates them from the Scourge except for following a different leader.

That was Amani's land to begin with.

We don't know that. For one thing, the Amani Empire was further east. If you're going that route, however, the land was likely part of the huge, world spanning NElven empire before the Sundering.

EJL

[Haven]

Unfortunately for you, the answer is never. There is a difference between a few individuals...and they were a few individuals...and the entire faction.

So Cult of the Damned is "few individuals" now?

Whos trying to protect him?

You do. More like the shiny Alliance holiness than that asshole though.

Sylvanas, in game, is as evil as the Scourge itself.

ROFL, ask any Forsaken or blood elf xD

Given her penchant for killing off the living, murder,

Garithos had it. Dealin Proudmoore had it. Wrynn has it.

mind control,

What's wrong with it?

genocide

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. Where does such thing take place?

there ISN'T a lot of difference

You see what you want to see.

HE was also the leader of the Lordaeranian army, hew as successful at protecting the land from the Scourge, he did win victories and he did lead the a major mportion of the Lordaeranian army...

Ironically we don't even know much of these victories or even if there were any. A victory over Kael'thas, I remember in details, however.

which these Lordaeranians fought against. At best....that downright rebellion agaisnt lawful authority.

When a "lawful authority" tells you to give him all your stuff and exiles you from the country without explanation, what do you do? Lawful authorities were ripped apart by mob for lesser deeds, you know...

And they did so on the say so on a High Elf.

Not you understand English please speak wtf.

As for the deal itself...the point is that she broke it.

*in Tarantino's voice* dealdealdealdealdealdealdealdeal

She killed off the protectors of the living and initiated a war against them.

She killed off the useless blockheads that stood in the way with their idiotic principles and a delusion of their undisputable superiority and holiness.

And then complains that people treat the Forsaken as hostile and unfriendly.

Where? You are the one who complains. Who says it was "cruel" or "unfair". QQ moar.

Garithos army failed vs Dreadlords. It was still seen as successful.

ROFL! Seriously, dude, I have nothing to add here. You destroyed yourself xD

Why should the Alliance trust someone who broke a truce and killed off a successful field commander and his army and captured a city the Allainces views as its spiritual home? Why should the Alliance or ANY human or living creature trust the Forsaken? They have yet to show ANY marked difference in attitude or activity that differentiates them from the Scourge except for following a different leader.

The Horde is okay with that. Your point?

We don't know that. For one thing, the Amani Empire was further east. If you're going that route, however, the land was likely part of the huge, world spanning NElven empire before the Sundering.

The Amani held everything between Quel'thalas and Stromgarde to the point before Arathor and Troll Wars. Don't forget btw that trolls were there before even night elves.

[Talen]

So Cult of the Damned is "few individuals" now?

Yes.

You do. More like the shiny Alliance holiness than that asshole though.

Actually, the Alliance could do with more people like him. His racism was inexplicable given the history of the world, but it still existed and it took that "shiny Alliance holiness" off.

ROFL, ask any Forsaken or blood elf xD

When you get down it....what is the difference between the Forsaken and the Scourge.

They both engage in murder, torture, experimention. They both engage in genocide. They both enagge in unprovoked war. They both engage in mind control. And so on.

The difference is that the Forsaken is "free willed", follows Sylvanas rather than Arthas and doesn't have the sheer power or might of the Scourge. Other than that, their actions are very, very similar...nigh on identical in fact.

Is the fact that the Forsaken is weaker than the Scourge but otherwise acts the same supposed to make them somehow less than evil?

Garithos had it. Dealin Proudmoore had it. Wrynn has it.

Out of all those, none have expressed an active desire for genocide.

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. Where does such thing take place?

That you have to ask shows only that you don't know everything you could about the Forsaken and its plans. Leaving aside the other various sources delign with the issue, I'll direct you to the novel Arthas where we get it through Sylvanas own thoughts.

You see what you want to see.

Maybe that is the case. What, then, IS the difference. The Scourge is larger, more powerful, is mind controlled and follows Arthas. The Forsaken allied with the Horde out of necessity. The Scourge allied with the Vrykul.

But where are the differences that show the Forskaen to be truly different?

When a "lawful authority" tells you to give him all your stuff and exiles you from the country without explanation, what do you do? Lawful authorities were ripped apart by mob for lesser deeds, you know...

Which doesn't stop him being the "lawful authority".

She killed off the useless blockheads that stood in the way with their idiotic principles and a delusion of their undisputable superiority and holiness.

And the Alliance should forgive them?
You seem fixated on the idea that the Alliance should recognise that the deal was somehwo flawed and therefore Sylvaans didn't need to keep her end of the bargian after Garithos delivered on his.

Things don't work that way. Things don't work that way in real life. Sylvanas had a bargain. She broke it.
Its simple. She proved herself to be untrustworthy and acted as the Scourge agent she professes herself not to be.

ROFL! Seriously, dude, I have nothing to add here. You destroyed yourself xD

Learn the lore.

The Horde is okay with that. Your point?

A major reason why relations have conmtinued to break down.

EJL

[Haven]

Yes.

How many? No really, how many? "Few" means around ten, I think. Last I checked around Naxx, Icecrown and other places, there was a plenty of living Scourge agents and cultists. As well as in STratholme, WPL, EPL... In WC3, basically every worker and necromancer of the Scourge is the member of the Cult. Learn... not even the lore, anything.

Actually, the Alliance could do with more people like him. His racism was inexplicable given the history of the world, but it still existed and it took that "shiny Alliance holiness" off.

Well, yeah, but racism as a kind of "dark side" is cheap, I'd say.

When you get down it....what is the difference between the Forsaken and the Scourge.

They both engage in murder, torture, experimention. They both engage in genocide. They both enagge in unprovoked war. They both engage in mind control. And so on.

The difference is that the Forsaken is "free willed", follows Sylvanas rather than Arthas and doesn't have the sheer power or might of the Scourge. Other than that, their actions are very, very similar...nigh on identical in fact.

I don't remember Forsaken engaging in genocide of all the living, forming doomsday cults, and defiling whole areas.

They both engage in mind control.

Dude that's bullshit. Forsaken are FREE-WILLED. No one forces a single one of them to serve Sylvanas. Quit twisting everything to your favor.

Is the fact that the Forsaken is weaker than the Scourge but otherwise acts the same supposed to make them somehow less than evil?

I don't know the word "evil". Choose another one.

Out of all those, none have expressed an active desire for genocide.

Aaaahahahahahahaaaaa, duude, what did you smoke? Garithos outright caused genocide upon Blood Elves, Dealin Proudmoore was dead set on killing every last one of orcs beyond reasoning, and Varian Wrynn... well, last I remembered, he charged at Thrall, the most wise and peaceful orc in existence, because of blind hatred, promising to disband the whole Horde. Well, unless there was some other retcon that turned that scene 180 degrees.

The Scourge allied with the Vrykul.

They didn't "ally". They forcefully awakened vrykul and made them worship LK, mostly by deceit and promises of power. Hildes, for example, stayed "awake" and they hate those vrykuls who allied with LK.

But where are the differences that show the Forskaen to be truly different?

They don't herald the end of world in a zombie apocalypse to begin with.

Which doesn't stop him being the "lawful authority".

Which doesn't stop him from being a criminal, idiot, and failure.

And the Alliance should forgive them?
You seem fixated on the idea that the Alliance should recognise that the deal was somehwo flawed and therefore Sylvaans didn't need to keep her end of the bargian after Garithos delivered on his.

You seem fixated on the idea that someone in this universe gives a shit about your forgiveness.

Things don't work that way. Things don't work that way in real life. Sylvanas had a bargain. She broke it.
Its simple. She proved herself to be untrustworthy and acted as the Scourge agent she professes herself not to be.

Hahahaaaa, in real life, bloody dictators can fuck up the whole nations and go not only unpunished, but actually be rewarded. In real life, invasions and wars are justified by massive PR while in fact only serve political and economical interests of the aggressor. In real life, idiots who play with fire die and no one cares. Unless it provides a good PR covering for an invasion.

Learn the lore.

ROFL! You don't cease to amuse me, where in the lore is it said that being anal slave to a vampire demon brings you success in your efforts?

A major reason why relations have conmtinued to break down.

That's life, dude. Someone's always gonna be pissed. There's always gonna be conflicts.

[Talen]

How many? No really, how many? "Few" means around ten, I think.

It can also mean several hundred if the relative population its being compared with is tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions.

Well, yeah, but racism as a kind of "dark side" is cheap, I'd say.

Thats's your complaint?

I don't remember Forsaken engaging in genocide of all the living, forming doomsday cults, and defiling whole areas.

They are a doomsday cult. And they are involved in genocide. Do the quests, read the books, learn.

Dude that's bullshit. Forsaken are FREE-WILLED. No one forces a single one of them to serve Sylvanas. Quit twisting everything to your favor.

I didn't say THEY were mind controlled. Arthas mind controls the Scourge. The Forsaken mind control others. Take a tour around around Undercity.

I don't know the word "evil". Choose another one.

Bad? Wicked? Naughty? Ungood? Malevolent? Diabolic? Mephistophelean? Opposite of good? Evil just about sums it up I think..

You'll probably be able to out together case for indivduals being "good", but as a faction...Forsaken =Scourge Mk 2,

Garithos outright caused genocide upon Blood Elves

No, he didn't. For one thing, if you didn't notice, he snetenced them to death for treason. The problem here is that he was right....KT and his force were guilty of treason by working with the bunch of naga who had sacked Dalaran.

Dealin Proudmoore was dead set on killing every last one of orcs beyond reasoning, and Varian Wrynn... well, last I remembered, he charged at Thrall, the most wise and peaceful orc in existence, because of blind hatred, promising to disband the whole Horde.

Like it or not, those beings didn't kill off the Orcs when they had the chance. They let them live. What they've done is act out against threats to their nation...and unliek theh Horde, they ahven't sought those threats out, nor made them.

Thrall may be the most peaceful Orc in existence, for example...but he started his career as Warchief by sacking Lordaeran fortresses, freeing PoWs and conning the Elements into thinking a demonic fuelled horde who had ravaged the human kingdoms and killed untold thousands had done no harm. He then ensured a warm reception with humanity by demanding they surrender their land to the orcs or face war.

They didn't "ally". They forcefully awakened vrykul and made them worship LK, mostly by deceit and promises of power. Hildes, for example, stayed "awake" and they hate those vrykuls who allied with LK.

And lots of other Vrykul work with the Scourge because they want immortality and power.

They don't herald the end of world in a zombie apocalypse to begin with.

Check again. The books tell me Sylvanas wants to remove Humanity. The quests tell me she wants to remove all life. To date, there is ZERO evidence against this. Sounds like shes heralding her own "end of the world" scenario.

You seem fixated on the idea that someone in this universe gives a shit about your forgiveness.

Which doesn't answer the point. Sylvanas broke the deal. Ergo, she is untrustworthy. Her word, to date, has been shown to be worth nothing to her. Her actions, to date, have shown her to be as bad as the Scourge. People complain that the reason the Forskaen are hsotile is because humanioty rejected them...but ultimately, she leads a force that looks like the Scourge, acts like the Scourge, has allied with the humans main enemy, and has a history of deceit, betrayal and backstabbing.

Hahahaaaa, in real life, bloody dictators can fuck up the whole nations and go not only unpunished, but actually be rewarded. In real life, invasions and wars are justified by massive PR while in fact only serve political and economical interests of the aggressor. In real life, idiots who play with fire die and no one cares. Unless it provides a good PR covering for an invasion.

And in real life, those decisions till have consequences. If soemone breaks a bargain, they get a reputation. Politics may dictate certain actions but that still won't stop how people view you. Sylvanas broke a bargain. In doing so, she showed what her word was worth. She showed exactly what had happened to the honour she had in life. It stayed dead.

In doing so, she displayed no reason why humanity should trust her further. In doing so, she sowed the seeds of further conflict. Garithos, for all his faults worked with her just as the Varian and the Alliance work with the Ebon Blade. Humanity may not like the undead but they are fully capable of working with them and have been shown in lore to be fully capable of working with them. Even liking them.

EJL

[Haven]

It can also mean several hundred if the relative population its being compared with is tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions.

So you agree that Cult is a lot of Lordaeron's population as well.

They are a doomsday cult. And they are involved in genocide. Do the quests, read the books, learn.

Didn't see any priests, heralds, prophets, propaganda, mass brainwashing, converting other people to acolytes. Dunno, maybe I played the wrong WoW?

I didn't say THEY were mind controlled. Arthas mind controls the Scourge. The Forsaken mind control others. Take a tour around around Undercity.

So what's wrong with mind-control? Hell, every priest can do this.

Bad? Wicked? Naughty? Ungood? Malevolent? Diabolic? Mephistophelean? Opposite of good? Evil just about sums it up I think..

You'll probably be able to out together case for indivduals being "good", but as a faction...Forsaken =Scourge Mk 2,

Yeah, yeah, the evilest of all evils, the threat #1 to the whole universe, blah, blah, blah...

No, he didn't. For one thing, if you didn't notice, he snetenced them to death for treason.

Which he pulled out of his ass. He should've allied with those nagas because they 1) helped his troops, 2) shared the same goal of destroying the Scourge

Like it or not, those beings didn't kill off the Orcs when they had the chance. They let them live. What they've done is act out against threats to their nation...and unliek theh Horde, they ahven't sought those threats out, nor made them.

O rly? Stop lying. Daelin only stopped when his own daughter killed him. That's when. Ah, yes, now she patronized the evil of all evils and slain him for no reason, she attacked him first, right?

Thrall may be the most peaceful Orc in existence, for example...but he started his career as Warchief by sacking Lordaeran fortresses, freeing PoWs and conning the Elements into thinking a demonic fuelled horde who had ravaged the human kingdoms and killed untold thousands had done no harm. He then ensured a warm reception with humanity by demanding they surrender their land to the orcs or face war.

Grats on masterful painting all things the darkest tones possible. Varian in comparison to him was always 100% reasonable and pacifistic.

And lots of other Vrykul work with the Scourge because they want immortality and power.

Yes. Anything like that with Forsaken, did they promise their allies and your imaginary cultists immortality and untold power?

Check again. The books tell me Sylvanas wants to remove Humanity.

What a big loss. 95% of the world will live on without them, the world doesn't spin aroung your humans.

The quests tell me she wants to remove all life. To date, there is ZERO evidence against this. Sounds like shes heralding her own "end of the world" scenario.

What quests? Like the one where she saves Blood Elves' nation after what Scourge, Garithos and Kael'thas did to them?

And in real life, those decisions till have consequences.

Aha. Of course there's justice IRL. Those who were responsible for pointless war in Vietnam got punished and atoned for every soldier's life wasted. Aha. Sure that happened.

If soemone breaks a bargain, they get a reputation.

...of a wise man, if you break a bargain like this. She saved his fucking life and she OWNED IT.

Politics may dictate certain actions but that still won't stop how people view you.

Which, in turn, affects nothing if you invest enough in PR. Did America really elect Bush jr. twice?

Sylvanas broke a bargain. In doing so, she showed what her word was worth. She showed exactly what had happened to the honour she had in life. It stayed dead.

Honor? You still use that word? Grow up. Honor is to be shown to your friends. Enemies are to be exterminated, eradicated. There's no honor in real war, wake up. We're not in some crappy poem.

In doing so, she displayed no reason why humanity should trust her further. In doing so, she sowed the seeds of further conflict.

Who. The. Hell. Cares. About. Your friggin' useless. Trust? Azeroth is not centered or focused on humans. Someone may just erase some pigskins and not give a damn. About your trust, your complaints, your forgiveness. No one. Cares. You stand in the way, you get killed, period. Feel free to stand on your knees and cry.

It's a simple struggle for survival, on a greater scale. Nothing happens without a reason. You don't wanna get betrayed - you watch over who you work with and assure that you are the better option for them. You wanna survive - you exterminate threats and assure your home is safe. It's absolutely simple. It always works. It pretty much explains everything.

Garithos, for all his faults worked with her just as the Varian and the Alliance work with the Ebon Blade. Humanity may not like the undead but they are fully capable of working with them and have been shown in lore to be fully capable of working with them. Even liking them.

I don't remember Varian telling Ebon Blade to work for free and never set foot in his country.

[kampfer]

quote quote quote, lets end this.

1. Much of Lordaeron was troll territory, Tirisfal however never had an original owner yet announced, the High Elves came, settled down, then left cause they were scared. Now the Humans move in and expand like crazy, leaving the High Elves to there Quel'thalas and the Trolls pushed back to Zul'Aman. The Humans become the Owners of Lordaeron
2. The Scourge happens and wile the Humans died or fled, the Heir to the Throne did announce his rule of Lordaeron. Then he is forced to leave to Northrend, leaving the Dreadlords, Sylvanas, Kelthuzad and the Scarlet Crusade. At this point, the Scarlet Crusade has more ownership
3. Garithos, a fail commander, who never once fought Arthas is captured and his forces who are survivors of the army who were located in the southern Lordaeron(Cowards) are brought into the final conflict of Sylvanas' battle with the Dreadlords, he is mind controlled/possessed I believe right? well anyways he dies off, but there is proof that some of his men survive(read "Cycle of Hate") In this battle she is victor of the capital, no one challenges her kingdom. So Now she owns capital, Scarlet forces own the land.
4.The Scarlet Crusade's Command becomes tainted and they as a whole lose Rights aslong as a Demon manipulates them. The Forsaken continue to fight off both Kelthuzad and Now Corrupted Scarlet forces, both a threat to the land, thus making them Defenders. Forsaken are now rightful Guardians/protectors of Lordaeron.
5. Lich King is Defeated, sole ruling rights fall to his sister if she is ever found(she was, kinda)If not found, not only does Lordaeron rightfully Belong to the Forsaken, but so does the capital and its ruler becomes them.
6. Debate about survivors demanding their land back, should Alliance invade Lordaeron? They were not there to liberate it from Scourge, the Forsaken were. The Forsaken are also former residents of Lordaeron. Without their rebellion, the Scourge or the Dreadlords could have pushed into the Southern Continent unopposed. Much is owed to the Forsaken for this, and atleast they should have Lordaeron until they threaten the world.
7. Gilneas, that battle is forced by Garrosh, but nonetheless it earns the Alliance right to defend its ally. So with that Ownership of Lordaeron at this moment is the Forsaken, but the Alliance still have a reason to invade and thats not enough of a reason for them to Genocide the Forsaken and replace them with living humans.

[Talen]

5. Lich King is Defeated, sole ruling rights fall to his sister if she is ever found(she was, kinda)If not found, not only does Lordaeron rightfully Belong to the Forsaken, but so does the capital and its ruler becomes them.
6. Debate about survivors demanding their land back, should Alliance invade Lordaeron? They were not there to liberate it from Scourge, the Forsaken were. The Forsaken are also former residents of Lordaeron. Without their rebellion, the Scourge or the Dreadlords could have pushed into the Southern Continent unopposed. Much is owed to the Forsaken for this, and atleast they should have Lordaeron until they threaten the world.
7. Gilneas, that battle is forced by Garrosh, but nonetheless it earns the Alliance right to defend its ally. So with that Ownership of Lordaeron at this moment is the Forsaken, but the Alliance still have a reason to invade and thats not enough of a reason for them to Genocide the Forsaken and replace them with living humans.

To "end this" as you put forward...the answer is no, the Alliance does not have ownership rights to Lordaeron. They never did.

Lordaeron, as a nation, is essentially defunct. What's left - Ambermill, Southshore, Hillsbrad, etc - is essentially an Alliance Protectorate.

Sole ruling rights to the Protectorate remain with Calia Menethil, if she is still alive. If she isn't, there will be some process through which someone can be made a ruler. The Alliance made a mistake there before. Alterac disintegrated because Perenolde wouldn't give up the crown and there was no one there to "make the big decisions".

However, with no "nation" as such existing, Tirisfal belongs to the Forsaken. Silverpine is currently contested. The Western and Eastern Plaguelands are Scourge territories. Hillsbrad is conetsted. And the Arathis Highlands wasn't part of Lordaeron.

What the Alliance has, however, in its eyes is a duty and obligation to re-establish Lordaeron. Both because Lordaeron is the spiritual home of the Alliance and because Lordaeron did the same for Azeroth/Stormwind.

The Forsaken, for all their talk of being Lordaeranian citizens, are acting more like a conquering force. At best, they can be considered rebels.

Even were everything above board, the Alliance also has a survival interest in removing the Forsaken...the future plans of that faction, at least with regards to the Alliance, are now very clear indeed.

I am currently leaning to the belief that we will see this followed through - with Thrall leaving and Garrosh in charge, the new Plague will be unleashed upon the citzens of Ambermill, Pyrewood, Gilneas and Hillsbrad, and the survivors of Southshore. It will be the Forsakens force multiplier allowing them to break the Alliances forces in the area.

EJL