The epic battle between fire and arcane

[Dentro]

Yeah, I suppose the longer casttime of fireball would be better, since there are fewer casts overall where fps can be a problem.

More feedback is always welcome though.

[Skarrd]

I performed better as arcane when I played with a shit connection and 4 fps. Maybe that's just me, though.

[Heilige]

Best thing to remember, fire is theoretically better then DPS. However letting clipping LB, or leaving LB off for a couple seconds can and will hurt your numbers. Fire > Arcane assuming a perfect rotation, which extremely high level mages can get, but many players fail to perform.

[cornymorty]

This discussion is what finally led me to register and actually post something in these forums. I've had this discussion with so many people and have helped people with their dps so many times all because of how people argue about the specs: which one is better?

If you min/max your gear for the spec you are playing, either spec will do the same amount of damage at the end of the fight. Now, before people start posting about how much one spec is better than the other, or RAWR says this, or the mage in their guild is this spec and does so much dps, actually read this entire post and make an educated response about it.

Back when Naxx and EoE were progression, fire was supposedly the mage dps spec. Nobody ever went arcane, it sucked for mana, there weren't any raid buffs, etc. I, however, had been playing arcane while leveling, and was used to the spec, and decided to make that my raid spec. I did the research, I beat on test dummies for what seemed like forever, I messed with talents, and eventually I got to the point where I not only outdamaged every other fire mage, but my dps was top in guild. Then along came the arcane buff. Every scrub ass mage when arcane because it was "better dps" and with the 4pc t9 bonus, it was even better than it had been. Fire mages were somewhat scarce, but I still couldn't find one that could outdamage me at the end of a fight. Something I will go over at the end of this rant is what I personally do different as arcane that "is bad." One ICC was released, I stayed arcane for a while and became bored with it, at which point, I went fire. And I still outdamage other mages. I'll post my armory at the end of this so nobody can pull the "you're full of crap" card and say I'm just talking, but as you will see my gear isn't the best. I don't have a LK kill (on this toon at least) and I have no heroic gear, yet I can outdamage full 264 geared mages who are arcane. I stress "damage" for the meter whores out there who thinks dps is better. Alot of it has to do with how I itemize my gear. For example, as arcane I wont even roll on a piece of gear that doesn't have haste on it unless it's a very, very good upgrade over something else I can get. As fire, everything I try for has crit, and I have no problem using a 213 hit trinket to hit the cap if necessary. People are so obsessed with gear score and ilvl that they forget certain pieces of gear are better not only for your class, but your spec, based off of which stats you do and don't have. Just because something is supposedly "BIS" for you class doesn't mean you want it for your spec. I saw an arcane mage with Phylactery. Just shows the ignorance in this game.

Now that I'm done ranting, here is what I personally do for amazing damage, regardless of gear, for both specs"

Arcane:
- Stack spell power and haste. If a piece of gear has hit and crit and your current one has haste, unless you're changing from a 226 to a 264, don't switch it out. 20 spell power isn't going to be worth losing 80 haste and going over the hit cap.
- Don't be afraid to use Arcane Barrage. If you don't have a missle proc after the fourth Arcane Blast, barrage and start over. Don't waste mana for a proc that might not appear. This is one of those things that people get mad about.
- Barrage after your missle proc is over. It's basically a free global at the end of an awesome spell. It's going to almost always crit, that's what talents are for. Again, don't be afraid to use it. Arcane is the destro-lock of mages: stop casting and you lose dps.
- Don't go crazy with CDs at the beginning of a fight to just look good. Your DPS isn't everything, so why would you want to throw out 15k to look awesome just to fall down to 10k by the end of the fight? Use icy veins before/after bloodlust, Arcane Power during lust with Mirror Image and whenever it's up after that, based on situational procs, buffs, etc. CDs should be used with intelligence, not just because they are off CD

Fire:
- Spell power and crit. Lots and lots of crit. Ignite should be one of your largest damage spells in this spec, and if it's not up 100% of the time then you're wasting dps (or don't have enough crit). Don't be afraid to gem crit; in fact, mages that gem straight spell power in any spec in my opinion have no idea what itemization means. You want to satisfy the pleasures of the spec, not just one side of it.
- Trinkets. If you aren't hit capped, use a hit trinket. If you ARE hit capped, get something that gives you lots of spell power, preferrably one that's up all the time. You already have to base your dps on good hot streak procs, don't add a trinket into the mix (unless it's DFO or Phylactery. Those are just straight up sexy).
- Enchanting. So many times I have seen fire mages with black magic on their weapon. Again, haste isn't as good for fire as raw spell power, so 63 spell power should be a better chant for fire. If you don't need the hit, a staffgenerally has better stats (from experience) for fire, but you're going to be looking at one with spell power, crit, and a couple sockets over MH/OH.

My hands hurt from typing, so I think I'll stop here. Not sure if I said this, but it really comes down to what stats you have on your gear and how you play. Everything I've said is what I do, from experience, that makes me do more damage than everyone else, and I'm not looking for critiquing from other people.

Hope this helps.

(my armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Cornymorty)

[Skarrd]

Back when Naxx and EoE were progression, fire was supposedly the mage dps spec. Nobody ever went arcane, it sucked for mana, there weren't any raid buffs, etc. I, however, had been playing arcane while leveling, and was used to the spec, and decided to make that my raid spec. I did the research, I beat on test dummies for what seemed like forever, I messed with talents, and eventually I got to the point where I not only outdamaged every other fire mage, but my dps was top in guild.

Arcane was actually buffed, and as such broken and OP, as of 3.0.8 (or perhaps that is when they fixed it, anyway timing isn't terribly important). It's possible that is why you were ahead then. Fire was far superior after missile clipping with barrage was fixed, and fire was just plain better throughout ulduar.

Every scrub ass mage when arcane because it was "better dps" and with the 4pc t9 bonus, it was even better than it had been. Fire mages were somewhat scarce, but I still couldn't find one that could outdamage me at the end of a fight.

Arcane then pulled ahead in t9 content as we're all aware, so it's obvious why you did better there and in early ICC. Also, none of the t9 bonuses were better for arcane than fire, so idk what you mean there.

Barrage after your missle proc is over. It's basically a free global at the end of an awesome spell. It's going to almost always crit, that's what talents are for. Again, don't be afraid to use it. Arcane is the destro-lock of mages: stop casting and you lose dps.

You're right. Stop casting and you lose dps. That is precisely what you are doing: not casting. That global is worthless and barrage is nearly worthless. You should be using that time to cast your next AB. It's called math, it's been done, this is wrong. You have no argument, don't try to form one. Stop doing this and you will do better dps than you are now.

Don't go crazy with CDs at the beginning of a fight to just look good. Your DPS isn't everything, so why would you want to throw out 15k to look awesome just to fall down to 10k by the end of the fight? Use icy veins before/after bloodlust, Arcane Power during lust with Mirror Image and whenever it's up after that, based on situational procs, buffs, etc. CDs should be used with intelligence, not just because they are off CD

Cooldowns at the start of a fight actually is intelligent usage provided you wait for procs to come up. That is why it's intelligent. I feel like you are saying the correct thing here even though it sounds weird, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Enchanting. So many times I have seen fire mages with black magic on their weapon. Again, haste isn't as good for fire as raw spell power, so 63 spell power should be a better chant for fire. If you don't need the hit, a staff generally has better stats (from experience) for fire, but you're going to be looking at one with spell power, crit, and a couple sockets over MH/OH.

BM is actually slightly above 63SP for fire as well. It'll change depending on your stats, but it's always been slightly better for me. I don't use it now, but I did, and the only reason I don't is because of all the movement and instant casts on heroic LK. I feel like 63 SP will edge out BM on fights like that. It's a personal choice, but in just the numbers BM is better.



There are more things I could mention that seem weird, but your "rotational difference" is the biggest thing. It's wrong, you are beating bad mages with a bad rotation. That isn't an accomplishment, and it doesnt make your way right.

[Tassir]

Glad you left me some meat on this bird. I'm gonna have fun ripping this kid appart.

If you min/max your gear for the spec you are playing, either spec will do the same amount of damage at the end of the fight.

Wrong right off the bat. some (almost)ALL WOTLK fights require MOVEMENT. Fire pulls ahead then arcane based on the amount of MOVEMENT in a fight.

Then along came the arcane buff. Every scrub ass mage when arcane because it was "better dps" and with the 4pc t9 bonus, it was even better than it had been.

you CLEARLY don't know what the 4p t9 bonus was. If you did, you wouldn't be making this arguement. (OMGAAWDZ 4p t9 GIFS CRIT, I STACKZ CRIT IN ARCANEZ I MUST BE KEWL PLAYING 2 BUTTON MAGE!)

Fire mages were somewhat scarce, but I still couldn't find one that could outdamage me at the end of a fight. Something I will go over at the end of this rant is what I personally do different as arcane that "is bad." One ICC was released, I stayed arcane for a while and became bored with it, at which point, I went fire. And I still outdamage other mages. I'll post my armory at the end of this so nobody can pull the "you're full of crap" card and say I'm just talking, but as you will see my gear isn't the best.

at the end of this post, im going thru your armory, and laughing at the upgrades you THINK you got that made your spec better.

also, if you say your so good at mage, then put up some WOLs, not this armory bullshit.

I don't have a LK kill (on this toon at least)

then you probably suck. LK normal is an idiot check with the 20% buff. if your 10 man can't handle it, at LEAST throw up some parses and show this forum that you can.

from what im guessing, your prolly lying about the LK kill on some other toon. and even if you weren't, that in itself is prolly telling you something... >_>

and I have no heroic gear, yet I can outdamage full 264 geared mages who are arcane. I stress "damage" for the meter whores out there who thinks dps is better. Alot of it has to do with how I itemize my gear. For example, as arcane I wont even roll on a piece of gear that doesn't have haste on it unless it's a very, very good upgrade over something else I can get. As fire, everything I try for has crit, and I have no problem using a 213 hit trinket to hit the cap if necessary.

if your referring to living flame or dying curse, both are relatively decent trinkets. as for your e-peen boost with damage meters, go show me some WOLs, or just get laughed at.

People are so obsessed with gear score and ilvl that they forget certain pieces of gear are better not only for your class, but your spec, based off of which stats you do and don't have. Just because something is supposedly "BIS" for you class doesn't mean you want it for your spec. I saw an arcane mage with Phylactery. Just shows the ignorance in this game.

BIS is based on your SPEC, not just your CLASS. I'm sure that arcane mage prolly is mainspec fire, or your just exaggerating in your post, which would not suprise me the least.

Now that I'm done ranting, here is what I personally do for amazing damage, regardless of gear, for both specs"

if it isint the same as it is in the PVE sticky. its gonna have to show some numbers, or your wasting my life.

Arcane:
- Stack spell power and haste. If a piece of gear has hit and crit and your current one has haste, unless you're changing from a 226 to a 264, don't switch it out. 20 spell power isn't going to be worth losing 80 haste and going over the hit cap.
- Don't be afraid to use Arcane Barrage. If you don't have a missle proc after the fourth Arcane Blast, barrage and start over. Don't waste mana for a proc that might not appear. This is one of those things that people get mad about.
- Barrage after your missle proc is over. It's basically a free global at the end of an awesome spell. It's going to almost always crit, that's what talents are for. Again, don't be afraid to use it. Arcane is the destro-lock of mages: stop casting and you lose dps.
- Don't go crazy with CDs at the beginning of a fight to just look good. Your DPS isn't everything, so why would you want to throw out 15k to look awesome just to fall down to 10k by the end of the fight? Use icy veins before/after bloodlust, Arcane Power during lust with Mirror Image and whenever it's up after that, based on situational procs, buffs, etc. CDs should be used with intelligence, not just because they are off CD

Barrage is NOT a free GCD. don't kid yourself like that. and Clipping AM was so pre-3.0.8. and if you ARENT going crazy with your CDs at the start of the fight, then your doing it wrong.

Fire:
- Spell power and crit. Lots and lots of crit. Ignite should be one of your largest damage spells in this spec, and if it's not up 100% of the time then you're wasting dps (or don't have enough crit). Don't be afraid to gem crit; in fact, mages that gem straight spell power in any spec in my opinion have no idea what itemization means. You want to satisfy the pleasures of the spec, not just one side of it.
- Trinkets. If you aren't hit capped, use a hit trinket. If you ARE hit capped, get something that gives you lots of spell power, preferrably one that's up all the time. You already have to base your dps on good hot streak procs, don't add a trinket into the mix (unless it's DFO or Phylactery. Those are just straight up sexy).

If your completely ignoring haste, then your embarassing yourself. Shutup and go READ more.

- Enchanting. So many times I have seen fire mages with black magic on their weapon. Again, haste isn't as good for fire as raw spell power, so 63 spell power should be a better chant for fire. If you don't need the hit, a staff generally has better stats (from experience) for fire, but you're going to be looking at one with spell power, crit, and a couple sockets over MH/OH.

I've been told before that the ONLY reason you might take 63 sp over black magic, is because of the massive movement required in ICC HM fights. Otherwise, your statement is misleading and false.

My hands hurt from typing, so I think I'll stop here. Not sure if I said this, but it really comes down to what stats you have on your gear and how you play. Everything I've said is what I do, from experience, that makes me do more damage than everyone else, and I'm not looking for critiquing from other people.

THANK GOD. your very slim, naieve, ignorent outlook on playing a mage almost makes me puke.

(my armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Cornymorty)

HAHAHAHHAHAH OMG THIS IS EMBARASSING!
546 haste? Nightmare tear? Gemming for EVERY socket bonus? Excessive hit rating?
I especially love the fact that you have NO experience in hardmodes and have not cleared sindra or LK.

LETS BE CLEAR HERE FOLKS! this armory is a TERRIBLE example of a mage.

I mighthave touched a couple subjects skarrd already mentioned, but lets be honest here, this kid's post is despicable, narrow minded, and has no respect for any theorycrafting, mathematics or strategy behind playing a mage.

I ALMOST believed he was trolling... until he posted his armory.

[brirrspliff]

[...]

most of what you wrote is plain wrong. tip on usage of arcane barrage -> wrong. tip on NOT using cds at the start of fight (that is longer than 2-3 mins) -> wrong. and there's more. but my eyes hurt from reading, so i think i'm going to stop now.

/facepalm

[Varaben]

Ok not alot of useful information here really questioning if some of these posters even have level 80 mages... Anyways op if your looking for a yes or no answer well i cant give it to you in the beginning your going to do more dps with arcane talking toc/heroics/ some icc 10 content but once you get some t10 and experience under your belt fires going to be a better choice for you with the way the talents are set up now and idk where the heroic icc for fire comment came out with because that was dumb if you do icc with the buff where it is now fire is going to be better arcane requires alot of haste to keep up with fire and some instances that means gemming for haste which is pointless when you can do SP with fire and get better results, But Also going fire from the beginning will allow you to pick up the talents/procs/rotation and overall how well you play as a fire mage alot quicker what im trying to say is if you play with fire now your going to be better with it when you hit icc/H icc if you do hit Those and thats pretty much all i go just have fun playing a mage and please be careful on what some of these people say not everyone on the forums is correct usually i take the information that is repeated a bunch because its most likely true Happy hunting.

where da punctuation at? Thats the longest run on sentence Ive seen in a while.

[Executor67]

I've actually been wondering about this for quite awhile, I am generally top DPS in our raids, but I seem to have plateau'd. I know there aren't many upgrades available to me at this point without starting heroics. I switched to fire this week to try it out, how do you think it should work with my gear? As arcane now I'm between 12 and 14k on every fight... And... Frozen bone spike will be replaced as soon as rigormortis drops.

meh.. it won't let me link my armory, but I am Texacutor on Stormscale, US.

I'm currently in what I think i should be wearing for fire spec. Please help D: .

[Laadeeda]

@ Tex - Gear looks good, probably gonna want to regem some of the reckless for potents. I wish i had DFO, you bastard XD.

Rawr usually tells me to do purified dreadstones for blue sockets, idk what it will tell you though.

Nice job on the 13% hit, dead on :x

As for Mr. Beat Everyone mage, comparing yourself to bad mages is bad. It also sounds like the people you run with are also bad.

Get good.

[Bloobyz]

I would of taken you seriously, but you started out with this:

or the mage in their guild is this spec and does so much dps,

Then you went on and ranted about how good you are because you played the "worse" PvE spec during that time (Arcane pre-buff, Fire post arcane buff). You compared yourself to your guildies, contradicting yourself.

You're arcane tips are semi retarded and im going to request you delete them because they make my eyes bleed.

I didn't bother to read Fire because I got scared.

You also aren't in any place to start giving advice based on your gem choices (Nightmare tear), your gearing choices (560 haste is sub-par for fire too), and your lack of experience on any relevant fight.

I'm not going to go sentence by sentence like Skarrd and Tassir, since they covered almost everything, but I'm going to recommend you go post on the regular WoW forums instead. Those people over there are generally like you, misinformed, in no place to give advice, yet still do it because they feel they are right or just plain ignorant.

[Tassir]

Yo can we stop kicking the dead horse here?

its worse then blackfly season, and the corpse is starting to smell

[Inoxia]

you guys seriously got trolled hard. what that poster said about arcane is blatantly wrong.

[Swizzle]

troll posts aren't that long or full of in-depth fail.

[Venara]

This is a battle that has been fought many times. No need for a new thread. Locked.