Disc weapon from Icc 25?

[Revitalize]

None is really better than the other.
Assuming your crit is already over 35% holy crit unbuffed already, you wont see a difference.

[Kelesti]

These rare moments when I find myself wrong are oh-so-gutting when they occur :<
Stupid of me to forget PoH, yea.

On the subject of aura fights, shields perform good there, and PoH can tend towards a lot of overheal, or? A shield is as good as a hot on an aura fight, in damage removal, unless its something like sindragosa 10man, where you might be expected to get people topped up alone, in which case it could be dicey.

You're spending more time shielding than you are actually healing. The HoT helps stabilise auras, and keeps them "Weakened Soul" Free, so that if a debuff or something else happens, then you can shield them to keep them from dying. Flowing between the two is Discipline's strong point, not being a bubble-bot.

Back at 5%, were you tab-friendly shielding? Were you watching your Weakened Soul timer? Or how long the shields were actually lasting? If the answer is "number 1", they were falling off very quickly. Were you offering support, after the 4-6 seconds they fell off? No, you were already chain-shielding an entirely different group of people.

A shield can be "Better" than a HoT, if it's used right. Prayer can be better than a shield if you can effectively hit three people. Do the math on it, it's not that big of a stretch.

[HolyPriest10]

Hi thanks for all the replies

I am going to forget about Trauma and go for H Lockjaw for now I think,

Thanks to everyone again

[harky]

Best in slot as Disc is:
1. 283 Scepter
2. 277 Trauma (Proc > Stats)
3. 271 Tel'thas
4. 271 Valius
5. 271 Scepter

After that comes things like Lockjaw, then Midnight Sun, then normal Trauma, then normal Bonespike. The only reason Lockjaw and Midnight Sun's Heroic versions beat the normal Trauma is due to the gem slot. No, Val'anyr is not BiS as Discipline (it is for every other healer). The general goal for Discipline should really be Trauma not because it's great, but because the only thing better is a much, much larger upgrade for Paladin, Shaman and Druid than it is for you. Take it only if they don't want it (due to Val'anyr/etc).

[Kalmah]

Where's heroic bonespike in your list ? Should be number 3.

Also, the 284 staff should be up there somewhere too.

Just looking at sp, the staff has : 894 sp, 3 red sockets with +9sp bonus + 81 sp enchant = 1053sp
Heroic Trauma with the off-hand from BPC : 836 sp, 1 yellow socket + 63 sp enchant + 119sp from off-hand : 1041 sp


So, for a pure bubble-bot, I'd value the staff above the trauma / OH combo.

[Checksmix]

Where's heroic bonespike in your list ? Should be number 3.

Also, the 284 staff should be up there somewhere too.

Just looking at sp, the staff has : 894 sp, 3 red sockets with +9sp bonus + 81 sp enchant = 1053sp
Heroic Trauma with the off-hand from BPC : 836 sp, 1 yellow socket + 63 sp enchant + 119sp from off-hand : 1041 sp


So, for a pure bubble-bot, I'd value the staff above the trauma / OH combo.

Tramua should be given to a disk priest after everyone save the holy pally has one

[harky]

Where's heroic bonespike in your list ? Should be number 3.

Also, the 284 staff should be up there somewhere too.

You could include the staff, yes, but the proc in Trauma is worth more than 11 SP, so it would rank #3. Bonespike, uh... no excuse there, you're right, that should be on the list. So it would be Scepter > Trauma > Archus > Bonespike > Tel'thas as top 5.

Tramua should be given to a disk priest after everyone save the holy pally has one

No. It should be given to Discipline first actually. Not because it's best for them, but because there are much better options for the other healers. Archus, Distant Land and Dying Light are all better for Druid/Priest, so is Scepter. Scepter is also dramatically better for Paladin/Shaman as they really do need the haste, while Disc doesn't. Trauma is only useful for most classes on aura fights, while it's useful to Disc on every fight. So if you hand out Trauma to everyone else, they'll still want a second weapon for general use. That or they're dumb and don't know what they're doing... in which cause they shouldn't be given ICC weapons anyway.

[Deleted]

and at the end of the day disc still scales really well with spell power, more so than any other stat.

for that reason alone i'd say picking up 277 trauma is a viable option if you're upgrading from anything 264. not just for GS (/sigh) but because the spell power easily makes up for the loss of some haste/mp5

[Powerlamer]

and at the end of the day disc still scales really well with spell power, more so than any other stat.

for that reason alone i'd say picking up 277 trauma is a viable option if you're upgrading from anything 264. not just for GS (/sigh) but because the spell power easily makes up for the loss of some haste/mp5

This.

Running some analysis with Trauma and Disc, the proc is less than 1% depends on fights, BUT if i have to choose Trauma 277 / Bonespike 277, i would choose Bonespike all the day.

[TiduZ]

1. Royal Scepter (284ilvl)
2. Bonespike (277ilvl)
3. anything else 277 1h

Trauma hardly procs at all for disc even after buffs to pw shield glyph being able to proc it. Despite what some people are saying here, crit is >>> haste once you have 1 sec gcd with borrowed time, and the spirit is none too shabby as mana DOES matter quite a lot as disc. I have 3 more upgrades out of ICC25 heroic until I'm full bis and I still manage to go oom on most fights despite using cooldowns and mana pots.

Some people are saying that as disc you should be using greater heal and poh and stacking haste. That is something you could do, but unfortunately it's not the best way to play disc. I say unfortunately cus the bubble/pom spam with penance for emergency healing method of playing is definitely the best way to go, it is just kinda boring. Other healers are better for filling up the health bars, but disc priests can dominate any healer for throughput using the shield/pom method on just about any fight.

Back at 5%, were you tab-friendly shielding? Were you watching your Weakened Soul timer? Or how long the shields were actually lasting? If the answer is "number 1", they were falling off very quickly. Were you offering support, after the 4-6 seconds they fell off? No, you were already chain-shielding an entirely different group of people.

By shielding other people your effectively slowing down the depletion of peoples lifebars and doing a ton of ehps, which makes healing much easier overall. With disc you aren't just healing ppl with low lifebars, your preventing lifebars from going down further. On BQL if you shield a few people who are low, it will give the druids hots and holy priests renew/coh a chance to heal them quickly with no risk of them dying. It will amount to much less overheal then using a poh or direct heal. I could argue all day about why playing disc using primarily pw shield pom and penance is the way to go, but I'd rather you just play disc long term and I imagine you'll come to the same conclusion.

To those recommending a staff as bis: Spellpower is disc's best stat by far, much better than crit/int/haste, which are the main benefits you get going with a staff (at the cost of spellpower). Staffs are far from ideal for disc, get LDW offhand from 10man (5 more spellpower than blood princes 277) and the best 1h you can get.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ecgos&cn=Tiduz

[harky]

:

Highest possible SP from weapon + off-hand slots:
1. Scepter + Baton = 1,109
2. Archus = 1,054
3. Trauma/Bonespike + Baton = 1,047

If you think Bonespike beats Trauma then a staff is second in slot... Way to think that through. And no, Bonespike does not beat Trauma. The crit is worthless and the spirit is worthless. I'm sorry that you're having mana problems, but that's pretty much a problem you're having personally, not one everyone is having. Mana is Disc has been a non-issue since way back in Ulduar. Even then you'd need to argue that 97 crit and 66 Spirit is better than 141 haste, 141 spirit and 7 SP. Fact is the spirit is unneeded and while crit does benefit more than haste when you're spamming PW:S that is only because haste has no scaling. Crit scaling on glyphed PW:S is <.2% per 1% crit. That means it takes at least 230 crit rating to see a 1% gain in healing. Yeah, crit's great. But wait, that means the crit on Bonespike/Baton come nowhere near a 1% gain in healing. Not even .25%... That means no matter how horrible you think the proc on Trauma is even if it's only 1% of your healing it's twice as good as what you'd get from Bonespike. So now your argument is a few Spirit gained? BRB, trying to care. Wait, didn't work!

Trauma is second in slot. You trade 7 SP from Archus for the proc, which is worth somewhere around 50 SP. That means that even the Scepter is only barely better than Trauma. :

[TiduZ]

:

Highest possible SP from weapon + off-hand slots:
1. Scepter + Baton = 1,109
2. Archus = 1,054
3. Trauma/Bonespike + Baton = 1,047

If you think Bonespike beats Trauma then a staff is second in slot... Way to think that through. And no, Bonespike does not beat Trauma. The crit is worthless and the spirit is worthless. I'm sorry that you're having mana problems, but that's pretty much a problem you're having personally, not one everyone is having. Mana is Disc has been a non-issue since way back in Ulduar. Even then you'd need to argue that 97 crit and 66 Spirit is better than 141 haste, 141 spirit and 7 SP. Fact is the spirit is unneeded and while crit does benefit more than haste when you're spamming PW:S that is only because haste has no scaling. Crit scaling on glyphed PW:S is <.2% per 1% crit. That means it takes at least 230 crit rating to see a 1% gain in healing. Yeah, crit's great. But wait, that means the crit on Bonespike/Baton come nowhere near a 1% gain in healing. Not even .25%... That means no matter how horrible you think the proc on Trauma is even if it's only 1% of your healing it's twice as good as what you'd get from Bonespike. So now your argument is a few Spirit gained? BRB, trying to care. Wait, didn't work!

Trauma is second in slot. You trade 7 SP from Archus for the proc, which is worth somewhere around 50 SP. That means that even the Scepter is only barely better than Trauma. :

Your comparing a 284 staff to a 277 1h and 264 offhand, of course archus is better than bonespike. If you wanna compare 284 then compare scepter + 264 offhand and archus, the scepter is clearly better.

I think most of the top disc priests have mana issues since they do much more healing than the average run of the mill disc priests. When you are doing >17k raw hps or >13k ehps and not having mana issues then I'll take your viewpoint on that into consideration. ( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...9&e=6343#Tiduz )

Spirit offers regen, which IS important, and the more intellect you have the higher its value becomes. It's not that far behind mp5 at this point in the regen it gives you vs the itemscore it takes up on items. Crit adds more healing through DA procs on shield and pom, haste does close to nothing, especially if you are able to keep borrowed time up >90% while throwing flash/binding heals using certain tricks that you are likely unaware of.

Your math on crit is pretty much terrible. You should drop the elitist "oops didnt care" attitude when your dealing with players more skilled and knowledgeable than yourself.

[harky]

And you should drop the pretentious BS when talking in general when you can't even be bother to read. Did you even look at the list? At all?

As far as mana problems? No. You're not spending any more mana than anyone else just because you believe yourself to be a 'top disc Priest' based on what we all know are buggy logs. A GCD locked Disc Priest is a GCD locked Disc Priest, plain and simple. How much EHPS you put out is based entirely on incoming damage as what you're doing actually requires no type of skill. All you're doing is GCD locking with PW:S and casting PoM every 10 seconds. Maybe a Penance now and then. Anyone with half a brain will be able to figure out that the HPS figures you're talking about are not actually possible and the EHPS numbers are actually very close to the maximum theoretical output of your heals. Yet you choose to believe that the impossible HPS figure is accurate.

Either way, that point is a non-issue. Why? Because, again, any Disc Priest in basically any level 80 gear is capable of GCD locking. Anyone who can pass 28k mana fully buffed can then sustain that GCD lock in excess of 10 minutes without external cooldowns, but with Replenishment. Yes, mana consumption goes up slightly when you start throwing out Binding Heal, etc, but as soon as you introduce external cooldowns those problems disappear. The only fight that was ever a challenge on mana as Discipline in ICC was Lich King and only before people adjusted their shielding to alleviate that issue. Don't pretend that having better gear makes shielding harder, or that it takes a high amount of effort to GCD cap yourself. Neither is true.

As far as the crit scaling? Don't be ridiculous. Crit's scaling on normal heals is already pretty bad due to the way it diminishes in value, but when you're getting over 75% of your healing from PW:S+Glyph that scaling is then dropped dramatically. Want to see what 1% crit would do for PW:S?

Let's say you shield for 10k just to make things simple. We'll also give you 35% crit. So you shield for 10k, heal for 2k, crit for 3k + shield for 900. Net is 10.9k shielded, 3k healed on crit, or 10k shielded, 2k healed non-crit. That means that 100% crit would only increase PW:S healing/absorbed by 15.83%. So what's your average with 35% crit? 65% for 12k, 35% for 13.9k -- 12,665 average. Let's add 1% crit! Now it's 64% for 12k and 36% for 13.9k -- 12,684. You gain an average of 20 more healing/absorbs per cast. Wouldn't you know it, that's a .15% increase... for 1% crit. Hmmm.

That's the issue though that people just don't get. Crit sucks. Want to apply it to PoM too as that will be the main advantage? Now you're up at the full 195% modifier after all, instead of a measly 39% modifier. So for simplicity sake again we'll just say you have monster PoMs that tick for 10k. So you tick for 10k normally, or crits equal 15k + 4.5k absorbed. So 35% for 19.5k, 65% for 10k -- 13,325 average. Now we add that 1% again, right? 64% for 10k, 36% for 19.5k -- 13,420 average. Hurray, that means crit is almost 5 times better for PoM than for PW:S. Awesome! You know, with that lovely +.7% you got for 1% crit. :

So let's think about this. 75% from PW:S and let's give that other 25% entirely to PoM. Yes, yes, I know BH will take away from PW:S and add to BH, which also gets that .7%. Okay, we'll drop it to 65% PW:S, 10% BH, 25% PoM. Still pretty fishy and you won't find real logs like this, but we're trying to make crit look good right. So 65% of your healing is getting .15% from 1% crit, while 35% is getting .7% for 1% crit. Overall? 1% crit would increase your healing by .34% in this situation. In a real one? Not so much, in a real one PW:S will account for much more than this. The more PW:S accounts for the worse crit becomes.

The thing about this size of increase is that it's something you will never, ever notice. You could add 10% crit and you still would only be increasing PW:S by 1.5%. That's over 400 crit rating for a 1.5% gain? 20% crit just to hit 3% increases? Think about that for a second. That means 1 point in Focused Power is worth 600 crit rating. Question the math all you want, but when the only spell you're really brought to cast scales that poorly with a stat, it might as well be ignored entirely.

But yeah, cling to your logs. I'll try to pretend that you actually only got 58.3% of your healing from PW:S and that you magically got 1m absorbed from DA when the maximum you could have possibly gotten was 301,604, which of course you didn't actually get because that would also include non-crits, but you only crit 38%. This puts the rational number right around 114,610. So you subtract that from the DA amount reported, which gives you 935,161 absorbs which were falsely attributed to DA. Yeah, crit had a lot to do with your posting a high number. Kudos. Oh wait, no, that means that your ~38% crit for that fight only accounted for 12% of your healing. That means each percent of Crit for you was only giving... dun dun (my attempt at a dramatic, albeit sarcastic noise)... +.31% for each 1% crit. Oh noes, crit fails.

Of course, it also means that who'd have thunk it... 75% of your healing is accounted to PW:S by itself. An additional 11.1% from the glyph and an additional 2% that came from DA procs through the PW:S glyph. Overall a fun-loving 88% of your healing came from PW:S. Which again has a 39% modifier from crit.

But hey, want to analyze that more? Bonespike gives ~1% crit. If you're lucky that means it would have accounted for 10.2k additional healing. If you assume Trauma would account for 1% of your healing that would make Trauma's proc 3 times better than the crit on Bonespike. Unless you really want to cling to that 66 spirit as being meaningful. You know, the 66 Spirit that contributed a maximum of about 1,200 mana over the course of that fight. You know... less than half the mana you gained from Druid HoTs. With your gear you sit at what, roughly 36k mana fully buffed? Should be that, right? Something like 36,048? Which means for 66 Spirit to matter you'd have needed to spend over 115.2k mana total?

So, let's see how many spells you cast. Survey says... 204! Ouch, that's not going to help your case. That means you needed to spend 564 mana on average per cast. It also means you spent almost 30 seconds outside the 5 second rule. We'll ignore that though, since that makes it even sadder. So you need to spend 564 per cast average. Whoops, that means every PW:S you cast was actually giving you back 4 mana... ouch. That's 774 out of that 1200 already, you now need to have spent a total of 115.9k instead of just 115.2k. D'oh. Moving on, let's see.. 3 Binding Heal casts, that's more expensive. That's 3,129 mana for those GCDs. We can absorb that into the PW:S casts though! That's 2,355. Looking good for that 66 spirit! Cast a FH, that's 591, so up that to 2,382. Looking good! Ooo, but 12 PoMs, that's cheaper. Bring that back down to 1,866. Two casts of Penance, so with your haste value that's 1.2 globals per cast. Let's ignore that though and call it just a flat 618 instead of 515.

Long story short, we're 3,102 mana spent over budget. Sounds good right. Yeah, we haven't taken your normal regen at all. Assuming raid buffed you have even a pathetic 300 mp/5 while casting that means you finished this fight at over 10.5k mana. Let's take that 1,200 from 66 spirit away and drop you to 9.3k mana. Feel better? But wait, no, I see you have so much Spirit that you have 465 MP/5 unbuffed. In that case no, you didn't finish at a painful 27% of your mana left... you finished with right around 20.5k mana. Over 50% of your mana left. That spirit really helped you there.

Oh and if you didn't follow the very first part of my post... reread the list I wrote out in my previous post. The first two numbers are in fact directly comparing two 284 weapons. Silly. BRB wondering why I bother with people who think they know what they're talking about purely because they were able to finish content a few weeks before other people. :

[Gnap]

I started reading the rant the butthurt fail/bad above me was on and just stopped.

I'm 11/12 heroic and pulling heroic LK (25)

by all means grab the trauma, the spellpower is great in shield spam fights like LK.

Bonespike isnt bad. crit isnt bad, especially if you ignore what "theorycrafters" say, like this dipshit above me who thinks its only shield spam, and instead take into account the actual quick saves we make. different fights are different. if you play them all the exact same way you are doing it wrong.

I have to disagree with the mod as well saying "cast poh when 3 people take damage" you are just bad. 1)even if its hasted at 1.7 seconds and they are at 75 percent health you just clipped hots for unessesary healing.

I use poh, hasted with BT, on say PP when a party just soaked a green ooze explosion. but again I do use it, haste isnt bad.

SO in closing, part of playing the game is playing it. and not just doing a robotic theorycraft inspired "rotation" thats part of playing a priest. quick calls, prioritizing, and adapting. we have a fuckton of tools, not all give the best "HPS" but if used correctly can keep your 12k dps rogue alive another 350 seconds to do an additional 4.2 million damage. and that's what it's about.

[harky]

I started reading the rant the butthurt fail/bad above me was on and just stopped.

Good call!

Not so much the rest of your post, though.

If you'd like a TL;DR version: Yes, crit is as bad as I mentioned in my prior posts and Tiduz logs serve to prove, rather than disprove that argument.

Oh and since you seem a little clueless... Crit does become better when not shield spamming. However, when not shield spamming the value of haste quickly overcomes Crit. Haste is roughly four times better than Crit, so if you don't have BT for even 25% of your casts haste easily surpasses the value of crit. But that's just theory right, it's not like WoW is completely based on math, or anything.

[Kelesti]

Some people are saying that as disc you should be using greater heal and poh and stacking haste. That is something you could do, but unfortunately it's not the best way to play disc. I say unfortunately cus the bubble/pom spam with penance for emergency healing method of playing is definitely the best way to go, it is just kinda boring. Other healers are better for filling up the health bars, but disc priests can dominate any healer for throughput using the shield/pom method on just about any fight.

Discipline Priests can "dominate" by blocking all incoming damage before letting existing or pre-casted effects actually go out, guaranteeing 100% output, with 0% "overheal"? No way.
/sarcasm

By shielding other people your effectively slowing down the depletion of peoples lifebars and doing a ton of ehps, which makes healing much easier overall. With disc you aren't just healing ppl with low lifebars, your preventing lifebars from going down further. On BQL if you shield a few people who are low, it will give the druids hots and holy priests renew/coh a chance to heal them quickly with no risk of them dying. It will amount to much less overheal then using a poh or direct heal. I could argue all day about why playing disc using primarily pw shield pom and penance is the way to go, but I'd rather you just play disc long term and I imagine you'll come to the same conclusion.

Considering this part is actually directed at me, fine, I’ll bite.

Look at heroic Putricide. Look at Sindragosa. Hell, even Festergut. Or everyone’s favourite, because they’ve all been there: Lana’thel. On all of these, according to you, the best thing to do is to shield everyone, because “you’re preventing lifebars from going down”, and of course the “eHPS” argument, and “saves lives” get thrown around a lot.

Let me bring this up to you really easily:

• If they weren’t going to die in 3 seconds before the shield, you weren’t “saving their life”.
• If you consecutively shield three people in the same group, you spent more time shielding them than you would have with an unhasted Prayer of Healing, let alone putting Borrowed Time to use.
• The math has been done, and Prayer’s output will shine higher than a shield, and it’s also repeatable. It also covers more people, and glyphed (like you were using that third slot anyways) will assist in countering aura damage.
• Spam Target Shielding does not cover aspects of the fight (oozes, gas, plague, diseases, Dark Pact, Festering Shadows, Backlash). The list goes on for things that shields would be great for. Are you using it for them? No. Are you protecting the people that get them? No. To be your “top performing style” you are absorbing as much as possible, which means Weakened Soul will already be on the targets it could potentially “help save their lives” for.

Again, prior to the buff reaching 10%, how long were your shields actually staying on people on these fights? Averaging out to 4 seconds? That’s “really slowing down the incoming damage” when you’re only covering their ass 1/6 of the time, regardless of any other encounter mechanics.

But of course, I’m a Holy Priest, I have no idea how to play the spec or anything. I’ve obviously no clue what I’m talking about…
/sarcasm

Be serious, here. Tell me how I’m wrong, and not just because “I’m top, this is what top does, and you’d know if you played Disc”.

[Kelesti]

I have to disagree with the mod as well saying "cast poh when 3 people take damage" you are just bad. 1)even if its hasted at 1.7 seconds and they are at 75 percent health you just clipped hots for unessesary healing.

Even if it's hasted, it's higher output than a shield.

If you're shielding that high of targets, you're already clipping HoTs.

If you're shielding targets at any time, you are not covering potential debuffs that shields really shine for.

But yet, I'm the bad one. :

[Gnap]

honey you didnt read my post at all.

[harky]

Not sure about that... more that your post didn't make a lot of sense. The part she's referring to in particular is rather silly. Someone at 75% health even if they're a much lower health class won't be causing you to 'clip hots', nor would the healing be unnecessary. Then again that's not even what clipping refers to...

If you like it to admit it or not, PoH has nearly double the output of PW:S when hasted through BT. That means even if you had 50% over-healing on a cast PoH would produce the same output. Anything less and PoH would be stronger. Technically a non-hasted PoH beats PW:S if you can manage less than 35% over-healing.

Discipline Priests really need to accept that they shine not due to power, but due to the ability to ignore over-healing. Check the over-healing amount it takes for PW:S to beat certain spells sometime. If you use 3/3 Imp Renew as filler in your build then Renew is technically stronger filler than PW:S... as Discipline. The only reason you don't use it that way? Well first Holy's Renew is substantially stronger, but beyond that you need ~12% over-healing on Renew for it to equal PW:S and less for it to win. So you use PW:S. PoM, PoH and Penance all have substantially higher output than PW:S.

Sadly for you that 75% health figure for player health would in most situations mean virtually no over-healing on PoH. Whoops. Even an unhasted PoH would be a wise choice in the situation you described and Kelesti responded to.

[Gnap]

the two or 1.7 sec's she is casting POH the targets are being healed/dotted

burst is burst, better off pre shielding the shit thats about to take damage and let hots do their work, wasting a 60 percent overheal with a 85 percent overheal hot is retarded for easy to fix raid damage thats being cured.

pre shield weaker members, prioritize targets, and adapt. as for what you just said about "spellpower" you negated with your rant about crit and haste being "bad" so really man make up your mind. more like two heal a ten man all heroic or get back to me on a five or even four healer heroic 25 and get back to me. because what you scream to the world is shit, and illinformed as well.

btw you aren't beating H LK 25 without pre shielding, honey.