Warlock Threat

[Contri]

Frost DK's says hi....

[brakke]

i don't play a warlock but i do tank with a warior. y gear is around toc 10 lvl (just an alt). without any md or tricks i do about 10k tps in a 10man toc. never had any problems holding threat besides those nabs that nuke before u even hit the boss more then twice. i know lock tps is very very high but still.
on the other hand i always needed to watch my tps when raiding as a fire mage in tbc so i'm not fuzzed about doing it.

ps if u got a pala ask the hand of salvation thingy (or what's it called) witch reduces threat

[Spronny]

I think that in most cases this problem only occurs when the tank isn't doing something quite right. Many people who arn't geared are complaining about this, and frankly you don't have a right to. A tank with slightly worse gear then you should be able to hold threat against any warlock with a GS/WH score below 5300/2900. If they can't then they don't know what they are doing. Don't complain about threat if the tank is undergeared.

For the people who might actually be seeing a problem(geared people): the 20% buff to damage might push it over the top. Demo locks don't have any talents to reduce threat, and a lock's only threat dump is soul shatter that only reduces threat by 50%. Affl and destro at least have some threat reduction. The main problem with destro and demo is that they are burst specs, so if you start the fight burning everything you have then you might catch up the to tank before they have to chance to get all their stacks/debuffs on. This causes you to blow your wad early, clicking on SS and pretty much wasting the 50% threat dump to lose what 20k threat at the start of the fight. If you can wait till you actually have a decent amount of threat, say, halfway through the whole fight, then you use SS you actually dump more threat(like 100-200k), and puts more of a gap between you and the tank.

Blizz has stated that the start of the fight should be the only point in which the tank should have to worry about threat. Any other point in the fight should be mute because each class has a means of droping their threat.


So, the real solution is to not burn all CDs the instant a fight starts, so you can hold off using soul shatter so it actually becomes useful later on.
oh and the argument about affl having more tps, they kinda do but it takes about 30 secs before an affl lock can get to their maximum dps so until then their threat really doesn't come close to the tank, and eventually if it does they can use SS and never have to worry about threat again. The main problem is almost always with burst at the start of a fight.

[Numbnut]

I believe I saw somewhere that in Cat we'll have one talent at the top of a tree to reduce threat on all spells. Don't quote me on that though. The biggest problem I see is Soul Shatter is the only savior ability we have.

You can't honestly tell me mages aren't better off on threat than locks.

[Jessicka]

I know, really I get your point. What I'm just trying to make clear to these people, is that the class persé is fine.

I never said Warlocks weren't. I clearly said the fixes they made to our threat reduction talents had resolved the issue, not that it was a terrible issue to begin with, but one that had been noted and later addressed as I pointed out. Obviously this can only apply to Destruction and Affliction though; Demonology with such a proportion of damage being dealt by the Felguard didn't benefit nor did it need to, as I've said elsewhere, I don't feel it requires any threat sinking outside of Icecrown Citadel. Everything is fine for tanks and Warlocks without the 20% buff.

Should I just let others write incorrect information when I know how the mechanics actually work? At least NOW the warlocks with threat problems know where to look. Imagine if they had continued thinking the class was broken. They would've never discussed their tanks, they would've simply assumed it's the status quo of our class.

Well this is it, you clearly don't know how the tanks in your guild are operating, and you are posting incorrect information in putting all the blame at the feet of the OP's tanks. You stated that an undergeared tank was holding your threat fine on a fight where he was in fact second tank to the opening well geared Paladin, who had incidentally been buffed by Tricks of the trade to cover those first few seconds that are causing some players problems. What you claimed was absolutely misleading, and I have no doubt intended to be so.

The status quo of the class is that we generate a lot of threat if we don't have the reduction talents; the same is true for Fire Mages and Fury Warriors - you can go on any tanking or Warrior forum and discuss who they put Vigilance on; these will be the first three answers. It's a fact of life that's been around since Ulduar and before and one we have scant capacity to deal with on our own.

Don't point the finger at the class for every minor bump in te road guys. Look at the big picture. That's all.

Again, it is not our class that is broken; but there are well documented flaws however in Tanking which I have been pointing out to you, but you seem too hard headed to accept, in spite of Blizzard's own admissions it isn't working in quite the way they want it to. This does not make the issue the tank's fault as you claim. I am looking at the big picture, the full picture. And that says Threat scaling is poor, it's being excerbated by the instance buff, and you need to look beyond your own abilities, and that of your tank's to deal with it. I say discuss this with your guild, because it may be that TotT or MD are being used for something else; for example our Rogues trick the Ghouls at the start of the LK fight over to the OT, so moaning that the Tanks, Hunter's and Rogues aren't doing what you want them to so you can mindlessly pew pew is completely pointless. In that case, you have little choice but to hold back.

The reason your post pissed me off is because you addressed none of this. You simply blamed the tanks without thought or hesitation. Whether the information you were giving was correct or not, and no thought for the 'big picture' you're now extolling.

[jeanericuser001]

I find some times the best way to learn how to manage your threat in wow is to practice soloing high level targets with omen active. Over time you can learn how to watch how your pet and you generate threat as well as ways you can increase and decrease your threat over time while still inflicting damage. Granted it may not put you at the very top of the damage meters but it wont wipe the raid either.

[Bojingles]

If you're gonna talk about Omen, just go the distance. For a caster to pull from a tank it's 130% threat (provided the caster is at range- in melee, it's 110%). Have Omen give an audio/visual effect at 115-120% threat, and get ready to SS at 125%.

^ That's what I have set up as a warning system, just in case.

But if I feel that my threat output might be an issue with the group makeup, I make sure our healadin has me in mind for a hit of Salv when I call for it.

(If any folks use Skada for their threat meters, I believe it's just a flat 100%- a friend of mine was telling me that it was quirky.)

[Esmyn]

My threat is insane. Pulling left to right. I am only at 5700 gs and out dpsing 5990 toons.
Warlocks are just a high threat class. Just manage your threat and you will still pull ahead. If you are going all out in the first few seconds of course you will pull. Tanks cant have full aggro right away. Dont be dumb. And most of the time its the bad tank you pugged.

[DotDotDot]

Reading a lot of random stuff in this threat, people with different opinions and blaming other people, so had to sign up to the forums jus to put my view accross.
A lot of people are saying that they are meaning the Demo threat being too high, and that guy complainin about your tanks not doing there jobs, and threat is fine, i raid in a 11/12HC 25man guild, we are workin on LK heroic as u can probably guess from that I raid as affliction, WithOUT the threat reduction talent, and on some fights i see massive threat problems, some i dont.
Fights like Blood queen (if i dont get bitten early), or LK heroic, etc etc, where there is a lot of constant raid damage hitting players, my threat goes insanely high. Last night on LK heroic, we do like most guilds i am sure do, pop Bloodlust early, zerg down to 70% before the 3rd shambler etc etc, i get Power infusion every cd, and doing 15-16k dps pretty comfortably, spiking up higher. During this phase, i see my omen level out on me pulling a pretty constant 18-19k Threat Per second, sorry, but i dont no what tanks your using, but i see most pulling around 12-13k, spiking at 16-17k tps, i get major threat issues in fights like this, i shatter wen i hit around 125% threat, then it builds up pretty quick again, til i am 2nd on threat, and over taking the tank again.

so in my opinion, threat is high on most fights in the game, not through tanks fault, hunters or rogues fault, through the game mechanics. we roll with 3 rogues, and 2 hunters. 2 of the rogues are focusing on TotT/FoK the drudge ghouls to the add tank to let the plague build up easily without dropping off. Only 1 hunter and 1 rogue wil be ToTt and MD'ing the boss, the other hunter is on MD duty on the shamblers. (blah blah i dont care if ur guild handles the adds differently, noone is the same )

I dont raid with threat reduction talent, coz affliction tree has too many other better talents to take, to improve dps, if you ask me, its up to blizzard to sort the talents out, so we can reach most of the better dps talents without having to sacrifce others.
Take the Ret pala for example, can mash as many talents into the ret tree as they like, and stil hav enough left over for Bubblewall.

wall of text crits boom!

[Certin]

here´s a part of a blue post that i find intresting, removing threat reduction talents ..

What does bother us is having to get both Affliction and Destruction versions of hit, threat reduction, pushback resistance and range in addition to the crit damage from Ruin. Our plan is to put generic (affects all spells) talents for hit and pushback resistance in the first tier of Demonology and then just make the spells longer range so there is no need for a range talent. We're getting rid of all threat reduction talents. With the extra Cataclysm talent points, you should have more than enough points to get some in Demo and Destro as Affliction, and in fact we're leaning towards warlocks being one of those classes that does invest a little in all three trees. (Though again, not to the extent that you have no flexibility.)

[nocturnus]

Obviously jessika needs a lesson in reading and a lesson in analyzing logs. I'm done explaining you details.

Think whatever you like. Your opinion is that threat is a problem. My opinion and the dev's opinion for that matter (you were kind enough to show that yourself), is that tanks generate more than enough threat to guarantee a fight without problems. (obviously if you know how to play)

Don't present it as a fact. In YOUR situation, with YOUR tanks it might be a problem. It's not a problem in general.
Don't pretend it's a common and/or widely spread problem when just a minor part of the MMO-Champion Warlock population complained about it.

Now if you want to discuss threat, go talk a bit with a moonkin or a fire mage.
If you want to discuss threat reduction abilities, go ask a mage if they would like to trade invisibility (3 second ability) for shatter (instant cast).

Now you say that you weren't complaining about our class? So what are these:

If untalented Warlock threat is fine, why did they buff the talents?

They buffed our talents because it was a problem. Yet here you are saying there is no problem. ???

You show me you haven't played Demo in the two weeks since the buff hit 20%; which is precisely the point Demo locks started saying they had problems. Thanks for proving you have no clue as to whats going on.

Continue crying about our class, it will only result in you to never ameliorate. I'm the clueless one, yet I'm the one that's not complaining and you are.

Now, please, show me some logs.

Warlock threat is fine.

[ScorchHellfire]

If you think threat is bad now just wait til Cataclysm... Ghostcrawler recently mentioned in a post on the damage dealing forums that threat reduction talents are going away... Better start farming gold for those repair bills...

[Jessicka]

Obviously jessika needs a lesson in reading and a lesson in analyzing logs. I'm done explaining you details.

I can see quite clearly in your example of a typical log from your raid that tott was cast on your Paladin tank. I can also clearly see from the damage taken by said paladin that they opened the tanking. Given the stacking debuff received by tanks in that fight, there is no reason for that to happen at any point other than at the start of the fight. The other tricks are passed to someone else. It's a clear example of communication by the tank with the DPS on how to deal with early threat. How is that contrary to anything I've said? And what relation does it bear to what you claimed to happen in your raids?

Think whatever you like. Your opinion is that threat is a problem. My opinion and the dev's opinion for that matter (you were kind enough to show that yourself), is that tanks generate more than enough threat to guarantee a fight without problems. (obviously if you know how to play)

My opinion seems to be backed by the devs. I've pointed that out from numerous Blues. Yes, the blues also say threat should not be an issue later in the fight; but again, I've not said anything contrary to that. What I'm saying, and the blues are saying is that tank threat in the early stages of the fight may be inadequate and need tanks may need assistance from MDs and Tricks - a practice carried out by your own guild, yet somehow even though you posted the link to your logs showing that you're continuing to deny it. Don't say 'In my guild this threat is fine', when the actions of your raid members are showing otherwise. It's smart play yes, but go speak to Rogues; they'd rather daisy chain tricks between them, a Blood DK for hysteria, or simply put it any other DPS than 'waste' it on tanks.

Don't present it as a fact. In YOUR situation, with YOUR tanks it might be a problem. It's not a problem in general.

Don't say it's a common problem when a minor part of the population is complaining about it.

It's an issue discussed at great length on tanking forums, and mentioned a lot in GCs posts. It's also an issue brought up a lot, by the small part of the community that does post and speak out about things. If it wasn't something that came up frequently with a lot of people, it wouldn't get the coverage it does, especially not from blues. Saying it's 'not a common problem', and only a 'minor' portion of the population is complaining about it is rubbish; people saying it's fine seem to be very much in the minority here. Most are saying it's there, but it's managable. This is my stance on the matter.

Seriously, again, your own guild are taking action to avoid early threat issues, so please stop saying it's not a problem in your raids.

Now if you want to discuss threat, go talk a bit with a moonkin or a fire mage.
If you want to discuss threat reduction abilities, go ask a mage if they would like to trade invisibility (3 second ability) for shatter (instant cast).

I believe I've already pointed out Mages and Fury Warriors have similar issues. I'll throw in Rets to in AE situations. Again. It's not a problem specific to Warlocks, it's a problem with threat mechanics and scaling relative to DPS. This is a Warlock forum, I play a Warlock, thus I am discussing Warlocks.

Now you say that you weren't complaining about our class? So what are these:

Quote from: Jessicka on June 08, 2010, 02:09:38 pm
If untalented Warlock threat is fine, why did they buff the talents?

Quote from: Jessicka on June 08, 2010, 02:17:21 pm
They buffed our talents because it was a problem. Yet here you are saying there is no problem. Huh

Quote from: Jessicka on June 08, 2010, 05:00:06 pm
You show me you haven't played Demo in the two weeks since the buff hit 20%; which is precisely the point Demo locks started saying they had problems. Thanks for proving you have no clue as to whats going on.

Those are 3 examples of me pointing out that they fixed much of our threat issues by buffing our threat talents, and that if you don't take them, then you'll likely have issues. Same applies to other classes though, as I've already said.

Continue crying about our class, it will only result in you to never ameliorate. I'm the clueless one, yet I'm the one that's not complaining and you are.

Again. Where I am complaining about our class? If I'm complaining about anything, it's about the Threat scaling issues that have already been acknowledged by GC.

Now, please, show me some logs.

To demonstrate what exactly? WoL doesn't show threat. Nor does it record Soulshatters. That leaves Salvs, which once you've used SS are unnecessary.

Warlock threat is fine when managed correctly through talents and use of other class abilities such as MD and TotT.

Fixed.

Given this, don't just scream about fail tanks, because it is insulting to just about everyone who has ever played a tanking class.

[Goatonlb]

Good argument.

Hard to say IMO because I'm not even close to an 11/12 HM guild.

I AM of the opinion that the top players have more a say in what's what, and that 98% of the raiding population generally makes complaints based off seriously skewed information/experiences.

Too many people say "in my guild", which is a hard argument to use considering all things. Noc made good points in distinguishing all the ways his experience was actually tougher than most guilds, with fewer MD's, ToTT etc. The druid tank wasn't a good one though as Jess pointed out.

I think Jess is making a sharper point, while Noc is making a broader argument. Demo in the beginning of the fight vs. Locks in general over the course of the fight are very different circumstances. Fighting about different specs in different situations isn't really the way to go about it. If Demo locks are the culprits of this threat issue, maybe Noc's Demo Lock is holding off for a few seconds, still maintaining good DPS, but slightly behind in damage? A log wouldn't help us in determining that, aside from DPS time/presence %.

IMO Blizz has made statements saying DPS scales faster than tank TPS. Does that mean it's already scaled out of control? No, but it does mean that eventually it WILL be an issue. Maybe at 30% we'll see 3-4 classes/specs pulling off tanks. RNG plays another big part. Maybe in the same fight that Noc's Demo lock crit at the beginning and threw up pull-capable numbers, the tank also crit with abilities and kept threat. Unless it's something that's happening commonly and all the time, and again to the top-end players commonly, then it's probably not as valid an argument as the average Lock finds it to be.

People will def. look for ways to blame their class, and consequently Blizz, for their own or their tanks' short commings.

[nocturnus]

Seriously, again, your own guild are taking action to avoid early threat issues, so please stop saying it's not a problem in your raids.

Thats why IT ISN'T a problem. Really, is it so hard to understand? We don't have any problems because we're doing what is supposed to be done. Why don't you click on some other encounters? You'll notice that even there, threat is not an issue. So if you are having threat problems, you're clearly not doing what you should.

Please, post your armory, then a log and let's compare them to my demo warlock's armory and performance. Stop beating around the bush and show some numbers, some facts. Until you do that, I won't even bother reading your biased nonsense.

So I'll correct you again:
Warlock threat is fine. You don't need any threat reducing talents in raids because you should assume the tanks are managing the therefore made tools like ToTT and MD correctly. If ToTTs and MDs aren't being used, the tanks or persons leading raid are failing at their jobs and even in that situation, you should be doing just fine. Why? Because if my warlocks in half 277 gear can do it, anyone can do it.

The TPS a correctly geared and specced tank generates is always more than the TPS a hard nuker can produce. When RNG is against us, we have means to reduce this threat. I just saw your logs jessica, you raid with 2-3 rogues and 2-3 hunters most of the time. Threat should never, ever ben an issue in your situation. If it is, well... Do the math yourself...

Goat I like your approach, though I disagree with the thought that the 30% buff might make a difference. 10% didn't, 20% didn't and 30% won't.

[DotDotDot]

The TPS a correctly geared and specced tank generates is always more than the TPS a hard nuker can produce. When RNG is against us, we have means to reduce this threat.

I dont raid with the threat reduction talent, also in a lot of 277 gear, some fights, no threat issues, i am usually comfortably second on threat, but not in any issue of pulling agro. Some fights i hav big threat issues, (25man LK heroic i hav major issues), generally fights with a stand stil nuke for a long period, such as phase 1 of LK, with bloodlust + power infusion, i get to overagroing, soul shatter, and then catch up very fast to the tank.

So in my view of raiding 11/12 hard mode, its not the tanks fault, its the way the game is, and i prefer it like this, why giv tanks a Massive cushion? its boring for them, and boring for us to not hav to pay attention n mindlessly nuke. We have problems, but its manageable, and its more fun to have to micro manage, threat and soulshatters

[Goatonlb]

though I disagree with the thought that the 30% buff might make a difference. 10% didn't, 20% didn't and 30% won't.

Thought process being about the scaling issues they've talked about before.

CBA to find actual numbers, but it could be proven if someone had consistent information for it: Average TPS of tanks in T8 vs. T9 vs. T10 against TPS of DPS classes in T8/9/10. If DPS classes are putting up TPS at a larger increase than tanks are increasing their TPS over the evolution of being equally geared, then it's the scaling that's to blame.

That's also part of what Vengence was designed to do, to keep tanks' TPS scaling as well as DPS classes scale as they gear up in an expansion. Their point was that tanks have to be able to hold threat in the first, and the last raid of an expansion. Tanks generally upgrade via survivability, not so much damage, so their TPS won't increase at the same rate as a DPS class, who is gearing solely for the purpose of more output.

In that regard, both tanks AND DPS classes will get 10% more output with the increase in buff, so you're probably right in that a buff across the board won't create a wider gap in TPS generation between the two. However, I still can see a situation where gearing up creates threat issues for classes that generate high TPS in end-game. If a tank was designed to hold threat in the very first raid, then they won't have as easy of a time holding threat in the last raid (before Vengence).

[Modez]

If a tank averages 13-15k threat, and a lock averages 15-17k threat, the lock may pull. Further zone buffs increase this. That is the disparity that the Devs have mentioned as to why as the buffs to the zone come that DPS are overtaking tanks on threat. There has been a blue post on this. This is furthered by the additional threat gained via double damage crits, which warlocks are designed around.

Nocturnus: You are advocating that there are zero issues and citing it being so with being in an upper echelon of players, and in turn, an upper echelon of tanks supporting the backbone of the raid. At the same time, you mention that as people may experience threat issues, that it isn't an inherent problem for the class of for the majority of players. This doesn't resound well, as the majority of players are not upper echelon. So, in situations that most players may experience (either having bad tanks or the warlock itself not managing threat 100% efficiently) it may be more representative of the warlock population to assume that these conditions are not met, opposed to in your example about how they are a null issue.

Now, I advocated for lock threat to be added into Destructive reach and the affliction equivalent. I have points in destructive reach for this reason. I do, on some fights, have threat issues. That being said they are at the beginning of the fights and are associated with chain critting in destruction. The primary fights where I can overtake any tank I have played with thus far are Sindragosa, Rotface, and Putricide. Dreamwalker has issue but that is predominately due to the entire fight being 'mini fights' which consist solely of adds opposed to a sustained damage encounter. This is manageable, but the math does support the viewpoint that DPS threat will outscale tanks at an increasing rate as the zone buff increases.

Threat is certainly in a better place than it was a patch or two ago, but it shouldn't be terribly alarming that some people have issues with threat. This will not be as much of an issue in Cataclysm (hopefully) as tanks will no longer have Defense on their gear which should allow for more DPS stats which then may result in better scaling for tank threat in situations such as these.

[nocturnus]

Everything you've mentioned is on the spot. But does that mean, that threat generation should be balanced around a select group of tanks that can not squeeze their character's max potential? Or should the game be balanced around the majority of people investigating into class mechanics to perform at max potential?

It would be like a player complaining about warlock dps whilst disregarding the reasons behind his low personal dps. e.g. itemizing, rotational issues, stat priorities, etc... etc...

I know we'll never reach a consensus on forums like these. But least readers have various points of view with their related arguments.

[Modez]

Everything you've mentioned is on the spot. But does that mean, that threat generation should be balanced around a select group of tanks that can not squeeze their character's max potential? Or should the game be balanced around the majority of people investigating into class mechanics to perform at max potential?

I understand the point that you are driving at, but I believe your majority vs. minority distinctions are backwards. This is likely due to the people you have in your play circle, or based off what you may see on the forums. The minority of players are working on or have killed LK 25 hard mode. The majority are still working through normal mode.

The fact of the matter, like it or not, is that the majority of WoW players play for fun above what used to be progression or the end game experience. With the changes to instance design and the further announced changes coming in Cataclysm (10s = 25s) that pool of people who do push for their toon to be bleeding edge, even if they aren't in a bleeding edge guild, is dwindling. So, I agree with your argument, but the fact is that adjusting threat would in turn help the majority opposed to the minority.

I believe the majority of tanks have threat issues (a light issue is still an issue nonetheless) and the minority do not. Once this realization is made then you can approach this argument from the other side, which brings all these points made in line.