combat rogue question

[pkm]

are they meant to use 2 swords/maces or 1 sword/mace and 1 dagger?

[Rukh]

CURRENTLY, you use whatever weapon you are specializing for, through specs.

So for combat, you either use two bladed weapons (sword+axe), blunt weapon (nobody does this), or close quarters weapon, i.e. fist+dagger.

For combat, always use a slow speed/high per hit main hand, and a fast offhand. That means you'll never use mainhand dagger. If you use a fist mainhand you can use a dagger offhand. If you use a sword or axe mainhand, you have to use a sword or axe offhand.

Note that you have to respec if you change weapon types.

Note this will change for cataclysm. They're doing away with combat specialization talents, thank god.

[Tarshish]

Honestly, you will want to use the best 2 weapons you can get as long as you have a slow (2.5 +) main hand and a fast (1.5 or lower) off hand. Then match your weapon spec with your main hand weapon. It's best if you can have the same weapon spec for both your main hand and off hand, but it's also ok to have a slow mace in your main hand and a 1.4 speed dagger in your off hand. In this case, you would want to use mace specialization. Get the best weapons you can and then spec accordingly.

[StoicRoivaS]

If you're talking in terms of weapons while leveling, until you get some of the weapon specializations in combat, it really doesn't matter what you use. Likewise, if you're planning on playing more of an ambush/backstab style (subtlety specced) you'll have to use daggers. If you're going down the assassination tree, you can use pretty much the same style as combat until you get mutilate, at which point you'll need 2 daggers. Specifically for combat, you'll want to ideally keep your weapons within the same talented weapon spec, though this isn't a huge deal while leveling. So Mace/mace, Sword/sword, sword/axe, axe/sword, axe/axe, fist/fist, or fist/dagger are the "optimal" combinations to not waste talent points, but again, it's not a massive deal while leveling. On the topic of weapon speeds, it honestly doesn't really matter until you get a talent that makes it matter (combat potency, focused attacks), however, once you get these, it becomes increasingly important to have a fast weapon in your off-hand (and possibly even a fast weapon in your main-hand as mutilate spec). Ever since the move of most poisons over to PPM system, it's really not a big deal if you spend your first 45 levels as combat spec with a slow off-hand. You're probably using instant poison the whole way, which scales it's proc chance based on weapon speed, so a slower weapon will proc it more often (percentage wise), so you're really not hurt at all by going with slow/slow.

So in a nutshell, assuming you're talking about combat, which is the fastest leveling spec until mutilate, you can use any weapons until you get down to the weapon talents, then you're best served by using the combos I listed above. You always want to keep a slow weapon in your main-hand as combat, and from there you're fine using any speed of weapon in the off-hand, just be sure to always get the one with the higest dps, best stats etc. And then once you get down to combat potency if you stay combat, or focused attacks if you go mut, you'll want a fast weapon in your off-hand.

[Silence9]

It's simple...

At 80 for raiding use...
1 axe/sword and another axe/sword
OR
2 maces
OR
1 fist weapon, 1 dagger.

The MH weapon should ALWAYS be slow, the OH weapon should always be fast. Follow all these rules. Always.

[StoicRoivaS]

It's simple...

At 80 for raiding use...
1 axe/sword and another axe/sword
OR
2 maces
OR
1 fist weapon, 1 dagger.

The MH weapon should ALWAYS be slow, the OH weapon should always be fast. Follow all these rules. Always.

If we're talking serious ICC raiding, maces are not at all viable, and to be hoenst, neither is fist/fist or fist/dagger. I've been crit capped for months now, and I'm on axe/axe right now. The 5% crit from CQC spec is completely unmanageable in ICC gear. You really can only run sword/axe or axe/axe as combat right now. Since there is no viable fast sword, you can't even run sword/sword or axe/sword right now either.

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

neither is fist/fist or fist/dagger. I've been crit capped for months now, and I'm on axe/axe right now. The 5% crit from CQC spec is completely unmanageable in ICC gear.

So wrong, so very wrong.

[n0point]

If we're talking serious ICC raiding, maces are not at all viable, and to be hoenst, neither is fist/fist or fist/dagger. I've been crit capped for months now, and I'm on axe/axe right now. The 5% crit from CQC spec is completely unmanageable in ICC gear. You really can only run sword/axe or axe/axe as combat right now. Since there is no viable fast sword, you can't even run sword/sword or axe/sword right now either.

In the 14 resets of heroic gunship and saurfang clears I am yet to see a single 277 sword or axe drop. And 277fist+dagger offer quite a nice dps increase, especially since Black Bruises proc scales with the ICC raidbuff. AS for hit, It is quite easy to get a high enough amount of it just switching items around. The fact that 4t10 is such a bad bonus ads a lot of flexibility with gear.

Check my armory link in the signature to get an idead of a high hit setup.

EDIT - typos

[sosostolen]

Am I right to say that Mace spec is not workable just cause there is no fast mace from ICC?

[n0point]

Am I right to say that Mace spec is not workable just cause there is no fast mace from ICC?

Not entirely because of that. In the TOGC it was viable to use the 258 mace and a 258 1.4 speed dagger as an offhand. Mace spec will benefit your Sinister strikes and finishers if you have the mace in the right hand, it only offers white damage(and some Killing spree boost) for offhand.

Maces are not really useful in ICC more because of the fact that the top mace is only 264 ilvl and there is an abundancy of other weapons. You can still use mace+fast dagger like people did in TOC teer, but getting two other proper weapons for a different combat spec will make more sense and will yield more dps.

[LeperHerring]

If we're talking serious ICC raiding, maces are not at all viable, and to be hoenst, neither is fist/fist or fist/dagger.

Fist/dagger is viable with something like Black Bruise + Lungbreaker. Probably not a BiS setup, but viable nonetheless.

[n0point]

Fist/dagger is viable with something like Black Bruise + Lungbreaker. Probably not a BiS setup, but viable nonetheless.

The pair of 277 fist+277 fast dagger(no crit cap issues) falls behind 100 dps (for my gear lvl) compared to 277sword+277fast axe.
The difference comes closer to 150 dps if I model gear around neaar BIS levels due to crit cap issues.

So overall, not a terribad set of weapons but it should eventually be replaced, especially when the LK 25 hc weapon comes into the picture.

[StoicRoivaS]

So wrong, so very wrong.

Feel free to make baseless claims without any backup or proof... oh wait.

If you're in 264 gear or better, and you can fit 5% extra crit from the talent in without being crit capped, you're in a completely ridiculous set of gear. But I'm sure you're just making ridiculous speculation without even being aware of crit capping mechanics. So, carry on I guess.

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

Feel free to make baseless claims without any backup or proof... oh wait.

If you're in 264 gear or better, and you can fit 5% extra crit from the talent in without being crit capped, you're in a completely ridiculous set of gear. But I'm sure you're just making ridiculous speculation without even being aware of crit capping mechanics. So, carry on I guess.

Sorry, but no. You'd have to be in a "Completely ridiculous set of gear" to be crit capping as combat passively, sure you can crit cap easily with the agility proc on a heroic DBW but that's usually less than 1/3rd of the fight and it's more DPS to gem something besides pure hit even if you are crit capped.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ridge&cn=Thief
Almost pure 277, not crit capped... I must be in a terrible gear set huh?

[Silence9]

Lol I see I'm not the only rogue on this thread with no love from Gunship of Saurfang.

I had this discussion on another thread which I made, and we (myself and a few other rogues including Annoying) agreed that...

So I think we can agree that CQC is viable but it isn't optimal. If it means better weapons then it'll usually be better than Hack and Slash, but a spreadsheet is useful to figure out if it is in fact a DPS increase. (For example, some people might find that 271 and 277 axes are superior to 277 fistweapon and a 277 dagger).

So fist weapons can be good, but they really aren't optimal. If it means having two 277 weapons as opposed to 264 then yes, it's probably better.

Maces are a different story. They suck mostly because there are no good maces from ICC. None. As for the 15% armor reduction, I'm really not sure how useful that is. Any theory crafters know if its comparable to the hack and slash or CQC?

[Sesshou]

Lol I see I'm not the only rogue on this thread with no love from Gunship of Saurfang.

All our warriors and dk's are sporting over 264 ilvl weapons... I hate those stupid loot chests... making it really hard to stay on top of the war and dks (except the war with shadowmorne and 277 mace, he destroys me).

[StoicRoivaS]

Lol I see I'm not the only rogue on this thread with no love from Gunship of Saurfang.

I had this discussion on another thread which I made, and we (myself and a few other rogues including Annoying) agreed that...

So fist weapons can be good, but they really aren't optimal. If it means having two 277 weapons as opposed to 264 then yes, it's probably better.

Maces are a different story. They suck mostly because there are no good maces from ICC. None. As for the 15% armor reduction, I'm really not sure how useful that is. Any theory crafters know if its comparable to the hack and slash or CQC?

As far as your viable versus optimal distinction, sure no one is going to laugh at you if you're using fist/dagger, but the people that think fist/dagger is ok are also probably the people that are 100% unaware of the crit cap and how it works. Like I mentioned earlier, if you're in 264+ gear and using fist/dagger and *not* crit capped, your gear is an extremely specific case and there's an incredible chance you've picked up some odd pieces instead of getting much better pieces elsewhere. So yeah, I wouldn't boot a rogue from my raid for using fist/dagger, but I also wouldn't ever tell anyone who is serious about raiding to aim for them. It's just a ton of wasted dps in 95% of cases because of the crit cap. As far as maces go, the only reason mace spec was even viable in ToC was because the highlest Ilvl weapon (main-hand) was a mace and specs using two different weapon specializations were still somewhat viable. With all the changes leading up to ICC using two weapon specs just isn't viable anymore, and because there's been no fast off-hand mace in the game since:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=45315

from Ulduar (ignoring pvp maces) it's not even remotely viable to go mace spec right now. As far as how the specs perform in a vaccuum, the last I heard was that they're all very close with the order being HnS > CQC > Mace spec. If you just napkin math it out in your head, rogue crits are double damage, so 5% crit is pretty similar to adding 5% damage, and likewise 5% chance to land an extra swing is pretty similar to 5% crit which is pretty similar to 5% damage. The only reason that HnS comes out ahead is due to various "on-hit" procs that don't get those extra procs from a crit. So the extra swings produce more secondary effects than extra crits do (ignoring crit capping). And from what I recall, the extra arp from mace spec was balanced to be fairly close to these two. If we lived in a world where weapons were made like pvp weapons, with identical stats and speeds, you'd use HnS most of the time, but since pve gear is pretty different, we just use what we get, within reason.

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

As far as your viable versus optimal distinction, sure no one is going to laugh at you if you're using fist/dagger, but the people that think fist/dagger is ok are also probably the people that are 100% unaware of the crit cap and how it works. Like I mentioned earlier, if you're in 264+ gear and using fist/dagger and *not* crit capped, your gear is an extremely specific case and there's an incredible chance you've picked up some odd pieces instead of getting much better pieces elsewhere. So yeah, I wouldn't boot a rogue from my raid for using fist/dagger, but I also wouldn't ever tell anyone who is serious about raiding to aim for them. It's just a ton of wasted dps in 95% of cases because of the crit cap.

The only way for a combat rogue to hit the crit cap is during the DBW agility proc and that's less than 1/3rd of the fight and that IF you get ALL agility procs, or if you're actively trying to crit cap. There is absolutely nothing wrong with crit capping in the first place, because an upgrade no matter what you may think IS an upgrade. I've had problems with crit capping before with a different gear set as combat swords, but it was a bigger dps upgrade to gem either arp or exp/hit instead of pure hit in the same yellow socket while crit capped by around 1%.

[LeperHerring]

As far as your viable versus optimal distinction, sure no one is going to laugh at you if you're using fist/dagger, but the people that think fist/dagger is ok are also probably the people that are 100% unaware of the crit cap and how it works. Like I mentioned earlier, if you're in 264+ gear and using fist/dagger and *not* crit capped, your gear is an extremely specific case and there's an incredible chance you've picked up some odd pieces instead of getting much better pieces elsewhere. So yeah, I wouldn't boot a rogue from my raid for using fist/dagger, but I also wouldn't ever tell anyone who is serious about raiding to aim for them. It's just a ton of wasted dps in 95% of cases because of the crit cap.

Instead of posting your gut feelings you could just grab a spreadsheet and see exactly how viable it is. In fact, n0point already did this and got 100-150dps loss for fist/dagger over h&s. Nobody is claiming it's a BiS setup, but it's certainly viable and worth using if you're unlucky with sword/axe drops.

[n0point]

I tried to be civil but your aggressive way of jumping at people is forcing me to go a little more subjective here, StoicRoivaS.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...anas&cn=Razzoc
Thre are currently a couple of possible gear sets for comabt, and with a 40 EP value of 4t10 bonus, 2t10+3offsets is very viable, especially so depending on token drops in your raid. Now, if you are going to go 2t10 it leaves you a lot of place to use the Ikfiruses chest 277 and Gangrenous leggings 277, which both yield a lot of hit. TaiaJ heroic is not anywhere near DBW heroic but it is still a bit ahead of everything else for me(judging by Aldrianas spreadsheet). Hence we have a pretty high hit setup. I can actually switch out TainaJ 277 for WFS 264 and still be good 6% under crit cap.

Also, recent(around 3.3) foundings estimated that there was a mistake done in crit cap theorycrafting in early WOTLK, and this pushed crit CAP back about 4.2%, making it
100-24%glances-misses-dodges, no crit conversion as was estimated before,
almost 70% for me personally(again this is not random numbers, this is from the most recent spreadsheets of EJ) and with CQC I am 10% under it. All further gear estimates will be done with the Aldrianas spreadsheets help(lk weapon stats and rupture crits corrected).
If you want to speculate further let me replace some hit items on my gear for other stuff. Lets get t10 277chest+legs(legs for exp obviously), cultists 277 soulders and 277 valithria ring to mess up my current hit items. Now THAT makes me reach crit cap but it also makes me 3% under poison spellhit cap(3% from debuff and 1% from drenai already calculated in). So this kind of makes this low hit setup nowhere near optimal, making me gem hit which isnt a fun thought.

If we go to my current setup and switch 277 sword+axe in for weapons, changing spec to HnS this yields me 100 dps more, which is a nice chunk. Of course having this extra would be nice but nowhere in hell does it make fist_dagger useless. Also you have to remember that black bruises proc scales with ICC raid wide buff, making it much much stronger than I could anticipate before taking it. Here is a parse:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...?s=2403&e=2578
Over this short saurfang fight BB yields me
Necrotic Touch 116085 4.3 % damage with an uptime of:
Necrotic Touch 19 117.5s 66.7 %

Now, I would like to see your theorycrafting(with EJ background or references), parses, crit cap formula and something you would call not a "rare gear set". And please do not start pointing fingers at rogues with 284 axes, when a weapon like that comes into play CQC is not viable anymore for a whole other reason.

So in conclusion - is CQC the best weapon spec? - no. Is it useless? -no. It is pretty much on par if your gear has the hit for it, which a lot of setups do. And it is a lifesaver for someone such as myself who has not seen the 277 axe or 277 sword drop in 15 resents of ICC hc funship+saurfang.