Getting a second opinon

[Natthviske]

Hey Guys, I would just like you guys to give me a 2nd opinon on my rogue, I want to make sure im doing every thing right and playing my rogue to his potential.
Armory- http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ske&r=Jaedenar
Rotation- 1 SnD 3 Rup 1 SnD 3-4 Evis Repeat
And i've also been having issues with Sindragosa's melee debuff, any tips on that?
Usually pulling 8-9k 25 man ICC and 8k ICC 10

[sabrelime]

I'm pretty sure with that much passive ArP you should not be using any ruptures in your cycle. I'm not sure what your 1 snd and 3 rup mean but your general rotation should be get SnD up use 5 point evis's and use any number cp SnD when it is about to go down.

[Chuppa]

You should really get a chest enchant and replace that 20 crit gem in your belt.

[Natthviske]

You should really get a chest enchant and replace that 20 crit gem in your belt.

Yea I just for the chest and I actually completely forgot.
The +20 Crit gem this there for 2 reasons.
A. I need it for my Meta
B. I'm low on crit so why not since i need the yellow anyways.

[Natthviske]

Accidental Double Post

[Sesshou]

You dont NEED a crit gem ever. If the nightmare tear is the only gem in all of your gear, it will activate your meta alone. So you dont even need a yellow in that socket. If you did want to use a yellow for whatever reason, you need hit or haste far more than you need crit.

Also you shouldnt be using low cp finishers except for SnD. You should be 5cp rupturing at the very least.

[Natthviske]

You dont NEED a crit gem ever. If the nightmare tear is the only gem in all of your gear, it will activate your meta alone. So you dont even need a yellow in that socket. If you did want to use a yellow for whatever reason, you need hit or haste far more than you need crit.

Also you shouldnt be using low cp finishers except for SnD. You should be 5cp rupturing at the very least.

1st Off As far as im aware the Nightmare Tear will only account for 1 gem color on your meta, and I require 1 Red 1 Yellow and 1 Blue Red is covered by all my Arp gems, Blue is ocverd by my nightmare tear and thats why i used a yellow crit gem in that slot.

2nd Im over hit capped so I dont really need any more hit, nor does a Combat ArP rouge need much Haste.

and 3rd, i've been having higher dps running this rotation as opposed to the 5cp rupture, but I will be trying the rotation sabrelime has said and see if it improves my dmg output or not.

If im wrong about the Yellow Blue Nightmare Tear situation please let me know.

[Severion]

You are wrong about the Yellow Blue Nightmare Tear situation. A Nightmare Tear is a prismatic gem and counts for one of all 3 of the primary coloured gems.

You're over the spell cap hit but you are not anywhere near the white damage hit cap and hit rating will still give a good benefit at your level of hit rating. Haste will probably be even higher in EP(somewhere around 1.9-2.0) whilst the value of crit rating will be a little lower.

As for the rotation, at your level of ArP you will probably benefit from a low rupture uptime rotation, meaning you should use 5pt ruptures when you can, but you don't have to base your whole rotation around keeping up rupture 100% of the time.

[Sesshou]

You are wrong about the tear. I have 1 tear and all red gems, my meta works.

You are wrong about the haste. Check the EP that whatever sheet gives you, haste is higher than crit for all PvE specs in basically all levels of gear.

If you try sabrelime's rotation you need to respec. The only way that I can see a 3pt rupture and 3-4pt evis winning is if you have no mangle/trauma debuff in which case you shouldnt be using rupture at all. Rupture cycles work better the higher uptime you can pull off, using a 3pt rupture and then waiting for a refresh of SnD and a 3-4pt evis before reapplying it would give a horrid uptime. At that point since the uptime is so low, you might as well use an evis only spec and cycle.

[Severion]

Yes, just a little more ArP and I would probably take rupture out of the rotation completely and just stick to 5pt Evisc.

[sabrelime]

You are wrong about the tear. I have 1 tear and all red gems, my meta works.

You are wrong about the haste. Check the EP that whatever sheet gives you, haste is higher than crit for all PvE specs in basically all levels of gear.

If you try sabrelime's rotation you need to respec. The only way that I can see a 3pt rupture and 3-4pt evis winning is if you have no mangle/trauma debuff in which case you shouldnt be using rupture at all. Rupture cycles work better the higher uptime you can pull off, using a 3pt rupture and then waiting for a refresh of SnD and a 3-4pt evis before reapplying it would give a horrid uptime. At that point since the uptime is so low, you might as well use an evis only spec and cycle.

I sort of assumed he would know to respec if he did a evis only because blood spatter would be worthless, either way you should also remove one point from impv poisons and put it into vile poisons, for some reason this is usually the best dps, you can use a spreadsheet to check for sure. There really is no way in the world running a rupture rotation would be better for you, and using a glyph of other then ToT is a raid dps loss anyway.

[sabrelime]

Yes, just a little more ArP and I would probably take rupture out of the rotation completely and just stick to 5pt Evisc.

His passive ArP is already way past ever having it in his rotation, I only have 229 and Evis only is still better.
And yes I know just ArP may not be the only determining factor but for the most part rupture being in the combat rogue rotation currently just doesn't happen usually. When I only had my full mutilate gear for combat then rupture was better but only by a little bit.

[Severion]

Yes, I've done no testing myself and only just moved into a combat offspec but I can imagine dropping rupture when the dps from ArP becomes better than the dps from agility. When you start gemming ArP instead of agility-hit/haste.

[Sesshou]

His passive ArP is already way past ever having it in his rotation, I only have 229 and Evis only is still better.
And yes I know just ArP may not be the only determining factor but for the most part rupture being in the combat rogue rotation currently just doesn't happen usually. When I only had my full mutilate gear for combat then rupture was better but only by a little bit.

Actually your arp can never be high enough to "remove" it from your rotation. Even at arp cap, rupture is technically more dps. There are plenty of reasons that you would ignore the difference as at high arp levels its fairly close, but the actual amount of arp is not one.

[sabrelime]

Actually your arp can never be high enough to "remove" it from your rotation. Even at arp cap, rupture is technically more dps. There are plenty of reasons that you would ignore the difference as at high arp levels its fairly close, but the actual amount of arp is not one.

Ok first off the reason they told people to stop using rupture in TOGC gear was because eviscerate did more damage then a rupture did, even taking into account damage per point of energy. When the change to rupture came that made it crit without a tier bonus people ran the math and in most gear setups rupture does not beat out eviscerate. Rupture does not do "technically" more dps. It either will in a gear set or it will not. I'm even ignoring the fact that using the glyph of rupture plus blood spatter usually allows a low rupture or high cycle but it's a raid dps loss vs the ToT glyph, so pointless. In the glyph setup and gear most people have in ICC rupture is never a dps gain ever.

[StoicRoivaS]

In the glyph setup and gear most people have in ICC rupture is never a dps gain ever.

As far as the "is rupture better" stuff, rupture can beat out evis at any value of arp, even hard-capped, but the thing you really have to consider is mangle/trauma. If you gem/spec/glyph/enjoy rupture *and* you have mangle/trauma *and* it's not a fight where burst/timing/adds matter, rupture is in fact better, even hard-capped. However, if you do not have mangle/trauma, or you do not want to glyph/spec/gem/think about/use rupture, or the fight demands some sort of timing or burst, or the fight has adds, evis will win in practice, even if the spread sheet says rupture is better. So in all reality, it depends on a) if you have mangle/trauma and b) what sort of fight it is. If you want to optimize for pure tank and spank fights (fester/saurfang) and you have a cat in the raid, rupture is certainly better. But if you want to optimize your performance for 10 fights in ICC instead of 2, or if you don't have a cat/arms war, then evis spec is better in practice. The difference is somewhat small either way, and plenty of rogues run with 2 pve specs for this very reason, but we personally don't have the debuff, and I always keep a pvp spec, so I haven't ruptured in a long long time. That doesn't mean there are situations where it isn't better though, because there are.

[Sesshou]

Ok first off the reason they told people to stop using rupture in TOGC gear was because eviscerate did more damage then a rupture did, even taking into account damage per point of energy. When the change to rupture came that made it crit without a tier bonus people ran the math and in most gear setups rupture does not beat out eviscerate. Rupture does not do "technically" more dps. It either will in a gear set or it will not. I'm even ignoring the fact that using the glyph of rupture plus blood spatter usually allows a low rupture or high cycle but it's a raid dps loss vs the ToT glyph, so pointless. In the glyph setup and gear most people have in ICC rupture is never a dps gain ever.

Why mention ToGC when you obviously know thats irrelevant. Um hey, rupture was better than evis back in Sunwell. Did that support anything? No.

I said it "technically" does more dps because thats what it does. There are mitigating circumstances which can make evis better. Such as needing to use finishers on things which wont live 20 seconds after rupture is applied. Or if whatever you are using the finisher on doesnt have mangle. In terms of raw dps ability, rupture is always ahead. The "technically" comes from the fact that you may have to do something other than pewpew the boss.

You are making a couple of other massive errors. The people that ran the numbers (those on EJ, being Mavannas and Aldriana) agreed rupture was theoretically higher, not lower like you claim. Also, who in the world said not to run a TotT glyph as rupture spec? Top 2 glyphs are KS and TotT regardless of spec (so long as there is another semi-decent dps in the raid).

Saying rupture spec means you cant glyph TotT is about as uninformed as saying Evis spec cant spec TotT because there is an evis glyph.

[sabrelime]

Why mention ToGC when you obviously know thats irrelevant. Um hey, rupture was better than evis back in Sunwell. Did that support anything? No.

I said it "technically" does more dps because thats what it does. There are mitigating circumstances which can make evis better. Such as needing to use finishers on things which wont live 20 seconds after rupture is applied. Or if whatever you are using the finisher on doesnt have mangle. In terms of raw dps ability, rupture is always ahead. The "technically" comes from the fact that you may have to do something other than pewpew the boss.

You are making a couple of other massive errors. The people that ran the numbers (those on EJ, being Mavannas and Aldriana) agreed rupture was theoretically higher, not lower like you claim. Also, who in the world said not to run a TotT glyph as rupture spec? Top 2 glyphs are KS and TotT regardless of spec (so long as there is another semi-decent dps in the raid).

I just ran a spreadsheet using regular Aldriana's gloves instead of heroic in which I lose 10 ArP this leads the high rupture cycle and spec to be worth 3 dps more. This inevitablely leads me to the conclusion that ArP does fucking matter when determining whether rupture is worth it for absolute dps or not. I'm not sure who is propagating this "even at hard cap using rupture is better" but it is provable false. The only good thing about the rupture change was that people in mutilate gear could get more dps out of their current gear in combat then they could before because of their low ArP. It is hardly ever a dps gain for those who actually gear for combat, actually really never.

Saying rupture spec means you cant glyph TotT is about as uninformed as saying Evis spec cant spec TotT because there is an evis glyph.

I brought up TOGC because it WAS relevant to what we are talking about NOW. The people in that period of time debated whether using evis only cycles would yield more ABSOLUTE and HIGHER dps then using rupture at all. They debated the whole burst usefulness as well, and whether it was always absolutely always better even on tank and spanks,AND they found at a certain level of gear evis cycles were better period. Using rupture did not yield more dps.

With my evis speced combat rogue and gear my spreadsheet tells me I would get 11288 buffed dps(not icc buffs)(229 passive ArP)
If I swap my talents for blood spatter and 3/3 ruthlessness I get 11265 DPS(low rupture cycle) Spec 1
If I swap for blood spatter and 2/3 ruthlessness and 1/3 evis I get 11267 DPS(low rupture) Spec 2
If I glyph rupture instead of sinister strike for Spec 1 I get 11288 DPS(High rupture) Spec 1
If I glyph rupture instead of sinister for Spec 2 I get 11280 DPS(High Rupture) Spec 2

Now lets look at the BiS combat gear sheet (4/5 heroic tier)(1345 passive ArP)
In regular setup yields 13470 DPS(no ICC buffs)(Evis Cycle)
Spec 1 yields 13362 DPS(evis cycle still)
Spec 2 yields 13386 DPS(evis cycle)
Spec 3 yields 13407 DPS(2/3 impv evis 1/3 ruth 2/2 Blood spatter)
Spec 4 yields 13425 DPS(3/3 impv evis 0/3 ruth 2/2 Blood spatter)
Spec 1 with Glyph of rupture instead of SS 13293 DPS(Low rupture)
Spec 2 with Glyph of rupture instead of SS 13284 DPS(Low rupture)
Spec 3 with Glyph of rupture instead of SS 13294 DPS(Low rupture)
Spec 4 with Glyph of rupture instead of SS 13300 DPS(Evis only lmao)

So with my pitiful amount of ArP using your supposed spec and glyph I break exactly even, with less ArP and some other stats instead it would probably be a dps increase because I have had it as one before, but as you can see with high levels of ArP RUPTURE IS WORSE PERIOD. You cannot make it better, hell you can make specs with blood spatter and a rupture glyph where it still suggests evis only.

[Sesshou]

I brought up TOGC because it WAS relevant to what we are talking about NOW.

It is not relevant. People in ToGC did not have a critting rupture unless they had t8 for some reason.

What spreadsheet are you using and what modifications did you make to it because yours is giving you wrong numbers. I'm at 1323 arp atm and i get ~200 dps gain by being rupture spec with my sheet giving me ~1000 dps more than yours is showing meaning I almost definitely have more arp than you.

Fix your sheet and look again.

Edit: Infact, changing imp evis to 0/0 AND ruthlessness to 0/0 but putting BS at 2/2 and keeping the evis glyph gives me 12178 dps, 5 more dps than I get with a properly spec'd evis spec.

RUPTURE IS "BETTER" PERIOD. Fix your sheet.

[sabrelime]

What is your character's name?

The sheet I use is Aldriana's Combat 1.5.1