1. #1
    Deleted

    2 questions as muti rogue(PvE)

    I've searched answers for them quite some time now, but after some mentally challenged rogue in a PuG went very verbal about my specc.. even as far as logging an alt after ignore, I thought I'd give it a try and get an answer from someone how knows it a bit more in detail.
    I'm currently in mostly level 251 gear with a few 264 in the mix and usually pull 11-14k DPS in ICC 25 if I can stay on the boss all the time so it's more about curiosity, not bad DPS.

    1) I'm using the standard muti PvE specc with the only exception being having 2 points in opportunity instead of relentless strikes. I usually make my own speccs and check only if there's something really wrong with my performance. So the question is why is opportunity worse? Muti is something I use pretty often, it hits hard and 20% more damage to it sounds like a big deal. Also how big is the difference?

    2) Why is it advised to only use 4-5cp envenoms? It just seems to me that the bigger uptime on the buff and potentially not wasting one CP would be worth more than a slightly higher damage envenom.

  2. #2
    Spend a couple hours testing the differences and looking at it between your combat log and recount. If I'm not mistaken, the envenom buff is on longer the more CP you used with it. Therefore, you get higher damage from a heavy envenom and then a longer envenom debuff not to mention more mut's to generate the combo points.
    It also seems that with the 2 different questions you asked you are contradicting yourself... One is saying the mutilate damage should be higher and one says to omit it.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Thanks, actually it's not, one is about muti, the other about envenom

    I'm using 4+ now before envenom, just didn't know about the different uptime of the buff.

  4. #4
    Yes but one being about mut and the other about env... in one your saying to buff mut but in the other your saying to use mut less therefore your finishers are what you use more so relentless strikes would be better here even though you would have less combo points which also makes a high CP envenom better

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ita View Post
    I've searched answers for them quite some time now, but after some mentally challenged rogue in a PuG went very verbal about my specc.. even as far as logging an alt after ignore, I thought I'd give it a try and get an answer from someone how knows it a bit more in detail.
    I'm currently in mostly level 251 gear with a few 264 in the mix and usually pull 11-14k DPS in ICC 25 if I can stay on the boss all the time so it's more about curiosity, not bad DPS.

    1) I'm using the standard muti PvE specc with the only exception being having 2 points in opportunity instead of relentless strikes. I usually make my own speccs and check only if there's something really wrong with my performance. So the question is why is opportunity worse? Muti is something I use pretty often, it hits hard and 20% more damage to it sounds like a big deal. Also how big is the difference?

    2) Why is it advised to only use 4-5cp envenoms? It just seems to me that the bigger uptime on the buff and potentially not wasting one CP would be worth more than a slightly higher damage envenom.
    Relentless strikes is going to be better because the energy return offers quicker CP generation, which means you are able to get up envenom again that much quicker. Generally your stats are going to be something like this on recount = Instant Point #1, Melee #2, then likely envenom #3 on damage, then mutilate/dp. Mutilate doesn't make up as much of your dps as you think.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Relentless strikes is going to be better because the energy return offers quicker CP generation, which means you are able to get up envenom again that much quicker. Generally your stats are going to be something like this on recount = Instant Point #1, Melee #2, then likely envenom #3 on damage, then mutilate/dp. Mutilate doesn't make up as much of your dps as you think.
    Some people like our big numbers (the one floating over your target, not recount) I also specced opurtunity, for this reason.
    Diablo IV is the best MMORPG Blizzard has ever made!

  7. #7
    In general, don't make your specs. There are people who spent lots of time analyzing different choices, in this case yours has absolutely been checked and proven inferior. By straying, you are basically guaranteeing a dps loss. As for the size, any dps loss that can be fixed by spec'ing properly is one that I personally don't consider acceptable.

    As for the combo points. If you are tempted to use a 3pt because you fear wasting a point, you likely will clip some envenom uptime thus make wasting a potential combo point a lot less important.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    In general, don't make your specs. There are people who spent lots of time analyzing different choices...
    And when they send me $15 a month... :P
    Diablo IV is the best MMORPG Blizzard has ever made!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    In general, don't make your specs. There are people who spent lots of time analyzing different choices, in this case yours has absolutely been checked and proven inferior. By straying, you are basically guaranteeing a dps loss. As for the size, any dps loss that can be fixed by spec'ing properly is one that I personally don't consider acceptable.
    Seriously though, dude posts for pointers, and you respond with "you can't possibly know, these guys do".

    THIS IS WHY THE GAME IS BEING "DUMBED DOWN!" because of "those guys" setting the pace based on external math and analysis of a game meant to be FUN!

    OP? do you like big mutilates? Then use them! The "better" variable you are asking for is of the "you'd better be EJ-optimal so I have slack space to breathe" set, and being one to make your own spec, and caring enough to ask an intelligent question in an innocent manner, I say you are already too good (as a person) to play with that set of players.

    Good luck, and have fun, hope you get some less condescending answers in your thread.
    Diablo IV is the best MMORPG Blizzard has ever made!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    And when they send me $15 a month... :P
    @Omedon
    They spend their time analyzing things and posting results so that you don't fail while you spend your $15. Take advantage of it.

    And honestly, I don't see how taking RS over mut damage could possibly change the level of enjoyment in a negative way. Ignoring information like that is just stupid. Its like intentionally going to a store because the item you want costs more. Sure, no one can make you pay less for it, its your choice to be dumb.

    Btw, if you are intelligent enough to read the spread sheets, you can see precisely why one thing is better. You can actually visually see the math that say Aldriana used. So yes, there information is just saying that some one else ran the numbers.

    Though if you want a basic explanation, I already gave one for question 2. Question 1, look at how much over all damage your mut does. Hint: its not that much.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2010-06-14 at 01:05 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    Seriously though, dude posts for pointers, and you respond with "you can't possibly know, these guys do".

    THIS IS WHY THE GAME IS BEING "DUMBED DOWN!" because of "those guys" setting the pace based on external math and analysis of a game meant to be FUN!

    OP? do you like big mutilates? Then use them! The "better" variable you are asking for is of the "you'd better be EJ-optimal so I have slack space to breathe" set, and being one to make your own spec, and caring enough to ask an intelligent question in an innocent manner, I say you are already too good (as a person) to play with that set of players.

    Good luck, and have fun, hope you get some less condescending answers in your thread.
    If you read what the OP asked, you'd know why the answers.
    Muti is not your main damage source, it's poisons, and it's important to keep envenom uptime close to 100%.

  12. #12
    And I would also like to add, the game isn't being "dumbed down" because of "those guys." Theorycrafters have been around since EQ1, far far before WoW. The reason it is being "dumbed down" is because most of the players lack the intelligence to understand what is better and what is worse. Though most of said players probably don't go to game related forums in the first place...
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2010-06-14 at 01:27 AM.

  13. #13
    An my alt with 251/264 gear and 2 264 daggers i tryed both specs (one ID with 2 points in opportunity the other ID with 2 points in relentless strikes.
    It wasn't much of a difference I had almost the same dps 11-13k but you get more energie and get your CPs up more quickly.
    I stayed with 2 points in relentless strikes because it was more fun to play and i didn't get energie-starved so often.

  14. #14
    In short PvE mutilate spec is NOT about MUTILATES..........its about the application of your poisons.

    Envenoming and mutilating happen to be 2 moves that an assassination rogue uses to apply the poisons to their target.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ita View Post
    I've searched answers for them quite some time now, but after some mentally challenged rogue in a PuG went very verbal about my specc.. even as far as logging an alt after ignore, I thought I'd give it a try and get an answer from someone how knows it a bit more in detail.
    I'm currently in mostly level 251 gear with a few 264 in the mix and usually pull 11-14k DPS in ICC 25 if I can stay on the boss all the time so it's more about curiosity, not bad DPS.

    1) I'm using the standard muti PvE specc with the only exception being having 2 points in opportunity instead of relentless strikes. I usually make my own speccs and check only if there's something really wrong with my performance. So the question is why is opportunity worse? Muti is something I use pretty often, it hits hard and 20% more damage to it sounds like a big deal. Also how big is the difference?

    2) Why is it advised to only use 4-5cp envenoms? It just seems to me that the bigger uptime on the buff and potentially not wasting one CP would be worth more than a slightly higher damage envenom.
    1. Opportunity boosts the damage of Mutilate which is a whopping total of 13% of an assassination rogue's dps, therefore Relentless strikes is superior.

    2. Not sure I understood this question...
    I would agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Relentless strikes is going to be better because the energy return offers quicker CP generation, which means you are able to get up envenom again that much quicker. Generally your stats are going to be something like this on recount = Instant Point #1, Melee #2, then likely envenom #3 on damage, then mutilate/dp. Mutilate doesn't make up as much of your dps as you think.
    Mine usually goes
    1. Instant Poison/Melee
    2. Instant Poison/Melee
    3. Envenom

  17. #17
    THAT IS THE PROTOCOL AND THE PROTOCOL SHALL BE FOLLOWED! D: Retalent now, deviant, your judgment is nigh!

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