Prot classes can CRIT!!!!

[Spurmwhale]

People wearing a proper PvP set would be way over 1100. I think in full wrathful im at 1350ish without a single resi gem. Obviously you can't balance a game around people who don't even dedicate themselves to get the relentless set.

i'm at full honor set w/ wintergrap pieces, basically reached my limit in terms of gear progression without Arena/PvE, and i can't break 1k. not sure what class you play but casters generally have to gem for hit(120~), spell penetration(135~), haste(i max this as high as i can get), and if you think we're all supposed to gem for resilience with whats leftoever then my spell damage would be WAY below than the already measley 2200 spelldamage its currently at.

maybe its easier if you play a melee but theres a lot we HAVE to gem for that isn't free. we also tend to put our leftovers into spell damage anyways, most mages i've seen even top geared are fine with about the 700-900 resilience marks, and honestly that if anything is more the norm with most pvp's i see than anywhere near 1100-1300's resilience.

[Bobzor]

i'm at full honor set w/ wintergrap pieces, basically reached my limit in terms of gear progression without Arena/PvE, and i can't break 1k. not sure what class you play but casters generally have to gem for hit(120~), spell penetration(135~), haste(i max this as high as i can get), and if you think we're all supposed to gem for resilience with whats leftoever then my spell damage would be WAY below than the already measley 2200 spelldamage its currently at.

maybe its easier if you play a melee but theres a lot we HAVE to gem for that isn't free. we also tend to put our leftovers into spell damage anyways, most mages i've seen even top geared are fine with about the 700-900 resilience marks, and honestly that if anything is more the norm with most pvp's i see than anywhere near 1100-1300's resilience.

And you think you should be able to compete with people wearing far superior gear?

[Weck]

I can see it's quite insane, but here's a tip to reduce the prot. warrior's damage: Do NOT have your DK friend's pet on him, it'll just give him Revenge, which buthurts as well (you probably do this already, just making sure).

[Spurmwhale]

And you think you should be able to compete with people wearing far superior gear?

yes because i can play my class well. and generally i do believe thats enough for me to get by with subpar gear vs most classes today, even a lot of healers that aren't top resil geared i can take down if i play things right. but geared/played protWar's are on a completely different lvl of stupidity, and if you've seen/faced the type i'm talking about there is no way you could defend it. only partial idiots to the class really could. i mean for how much there could be to QQ about with some top geared classes/players/specs right now they are head and shoulders more dumb. you all want to QQ about protpally's but protwar's are WAY WAY worse if you ever run into the geared/played ones. the only reason why they aren't more QQ'd about right now is it takes specific gearing, and timing play to be on that lvl, and its not just based on the spec(like protpally).

and how much of the player base wears more than 1100-1300 resilience in your estimation? i mean if resilience is the equalizer to protWar damage, and you all act like <1k is low and not a good measure of the screenshot, are you serously holding people accountable to 1100-1300 resilience not to get hit like that from a protect spec?

[bw13187]

prot warriors are pretty easy to kill. they just seem harder than arms warriors because youve been fighting bad arms warriors that won't use their shield/shield block/shield wall/spell reflect, whereas prots always have their shield out and are much more focused on being annoying little fucks and staying alive while stunlocking and then surprise bursting a guy down.

At high ratings, arms wars stack as much resil as they can, and still get tunneled into the ground. As stated, prot has to go for lots more PVE gear to hit as hard, and therefore get pwnt even faster, but they get some utility that makes them pretty neat (read: annoying).

Edit: this guy's saying that, he should be able to take his furious or w/e shit he's wearing up against the best geared classes, and win, because he thinks he's pro, but he's entitled to bitch specifically about prot warriors for some reason?

STFU and go get some gear?

[KandyCane]

yes because i can play my class well.[snip] the only reason why they aren't more QQ'd about right now is it takes specific gearing, and timing play to be on that lvl, and its not just based on the spec

So basicly you're complaining that you can't kill someone who's apparently extremely geared and skilled for their class, whereas you're only "self-proclaimed skilled"?

Some classes work better for counters against certain classes than others.

[Spurmwhale]

So basicly you're complaining that you can't kill someone who's apparently extremely geared and skilled for their class, whereas you're only "self-proclaimed skilled"?

Some classes work better for counters against certain classes than others.

except we're talking mage vs war here, and i can't think of a class/spec that really counters them.

and if you follow class balance at all or know the state of the game you'd know blizzard overdid Protection class survivability/utility in relation to their dps. and they constantly imba so lets not pretend they're close to perfect in what they do either. in fact GC has already stated Warrior damage is way too high right now when geared, and i wish all of you read it since it seems to take blue to say it for a lot of you to realize it, no matter how obvious it is ingame.

[Bobzor]

yes because i can play my class well. and generally i do believe thats enough for me to get by with subpar gear vs most classes today, even a lot of healers that aren't top resil geared i can take down if i play things right. but geared/played protWar's are on a completely different lvl of stupidity, and if you've seen/faced the type i'm talking about there is no way you could defend it. only partial idiots to the class really could. i mean for how much there could be to QQ about with some top geared classes/players/specs right now they are head and shoulders more dumb. you all want to QQ about protpally's but protwar's are WAY WAY worse if you ever run into the geared/played ones. the only reason why they aren't more QQ'd about right now is it takes specific gearing, and timing play to be on that lvl, and its not just based on the spec(like protpally).

and how much of the player base wears more than 1100-1300 resilience in your estimation? i mean if resilience is the equalizer to protWar damage, and you all act like <1k is low and not a good measure of the screenshot, are you serously holding people accountable to 1100-1300 resilience not to get hit like that from a protect spec?

A geared player who hits hard on a low geared player. I see nothing wrong with that. Protwarriors aren't gamebreaking in any way. And the majority who plays competitive PvP are in fact wearing proper gear...

[Nythiz]

I'm putting some question marks at 11.5k shield slams.

Prot specs can gear in full PvE, because they have the innate survivability that they are less dependent on resilience. That's ok, but their damage in combination with their CC seems rather harsh.

DK and Retridins were nerfed for the same reason. It feels a bit like blizzard is applying double standards constantly.
You have to remember that protection specs (both warriors and paladins) have:
a) A lot of inate survivability. That can either come from higher armor levels due to shield, as well as defensive abilities. Sure arms warriors have the access to the same thing, but they have to totally stop their offensive abilities for that to work.
b) A lot of tools. Between the numerous stuns and silence. They have a lot of mobility and CC abilities.
c) Apparently pretty high burst damage

Aah well... PvP has been messy for a while now anyway. And I doubt it'll change.
Not saying this is OP NERF NAOW.
I'm just saying that when i look at my own class DK than we share several similarities. We have a lot of tools and innate survivability. But we are not allowed that burst (which we asked for several times), because that means we become too strong.

[Spurmwhale]

A geared player who hits hard on a low geared player. I see nothing wrong with that. Protwarriors aren't gamebreaking in any way. And the majority who plays competitive PvP are in fact wearing proper gear...

it'd be true if that was the case for every class as much as it is for protWar's. again i have nothing against War's in general, i'm not randomly picking on them for no reason, i'm weighing them relative to every overgeared player/class/spec i face, and they are standout stupid.

and sorry, acting like 1100-1300 resilience is the counter to a protwar's damage is just dumb, considering 90% of the player base doesn't have that. even then its just dumb in the context of a "prot" Warrior :P

and speak for yourself in terms of whats 'gamebreakiing' and what isn't. i swear a lot of you either must play one, with one, or have some ties to them to be defending them based on 1100-1300 resilience expectations lol. seriously do all of you expect that type of resilience out of every class's damage figures or just protWar's to make excuses to justify it?

[Bobzor]

Yes ... Yes you can balance a game around people who are in average gear.

That aside, I still think doing 11.5k shield slams is kinda insane if you look at the big picture.
I don't see how this is any different than S4 rogues going full PvE gear, because they couldn't be touched anyway. And then bursting someone down.

This is no different. Prot specs can gear in full PvE, because they have the innate survivability that they are less dependent on resilience. That's ok, but their damage in combination with their CC is rather insane.

Hell DK and Retridins were nerfed for the same reason. I love how blizz is applying double standards like that a lot.
I don't see how, when you have a high "natural survival" level and a lot of tools (stuns/silences), you can also do insane burst on top of that.

Aah well... PvP has been messy for a while now anyway.

This is where it fails. PvP in this game isn't balanced around bad players. For example arenas are balanced around the potential of a certain set-up. Lets say a spicific comp had the possibility to CC someone forever. In the lower brackets this would be fine becouse bad players wouldn't be able to pull it out=balanced and happy happy.
In the higher brackets this would be straight up retarded for obvious reasons.
There's nothing wrong with a PvE geared player hitting 11k on a clothie with bad gear. He wouldn't stand a chance vs. a lets say a RSP at higher ratings. He'd be dead so fast it would be ridiculous.
That's why you can't balance it around "The avarage player"
This might be one of the flaws in the game but nothing you can do much about atm.

---------- Post added 06-15-2010 at 08:48 PM ----------

it'd be true if that was the case for every class as much as it is for protWar's. again i have nothing against War's in general, i'm not randomly picking on them for no reason, i'm weighing them relative to every overgeared player/class/spec i face, and they are standout stupid.

and sorry, acting like 1100-1300 resilience is the counter to a protwar's damage is just dumb, considering 90% of the player base doesn't have that. even then its just dumb in the context of a "prot" Warrior :P

and speak for yourself in terms of whats 'gamebreakiing' and what isn't. i swear a lot of you either must play one, with one, or have some ties to them to be defending them based on 1100-1300 resilience expectations lol. seriously do all of you expect that type of resilience out of every class's damage figures or just protWar's to make excuses to justify it?

I'm just basing it all on my own experience. I myself is indeed geared to the top and this is perhaps why i never saw them as a big issue.

[Spurmwhale]

This is where it fails. PvP in this game isn't balanced around bad players. For example arenas are balanced around the potential of a certain set-up. Lets say a spicific comp had the possibility to CC someone forever. In the lower brackets this would be fine becouse bad players wouldn't be able to pull it out=balanced and happy happy.
In the higher brackets this would be straight up retarded for obvious reasons.
There's nothing wrong with a PvE geared player hitting 11k on a clothie with bad gear. He wouldn't stand a chance vs. a lets say a RSP at higher ratings. He'd be dead so fast it would be ridiculous.
That's why you can't balance it around "The avarage player"
This might be one of the flaws in the game but nothing you can do much about atm.

---------- Post added 06-15-2010 at 08:48 PM ----------



I'm just basing it all on my own experience. I myself is indeed geared to the top and this is perhaps why i never saw them as a big issue.

when you say 'bad gear' please say resilience not up to par to the top 5-10% since thats what we're arguing about here. you can't pretend to justify PROTECT spec'd warriors hitting for close to 10k on even 750 resilience. 0 resilience maybe, but to pretend 750 is so low with 1100-1300 resilience expectations is absurd.

its more that some of you have an agenda to either play devils advocate or tied to warriors in some way to defend them. otherwise there is no way you can justify that if you're impartial with some common sense in you....

[Bobzor]

when you say 'bad gear' please say resilience not up to par to the top 5-10% since thats what we're arguing about here. you can't pretend to justify PROTECT spec'd warriors hitting for close to 10k on even 750 resilience. 0 resilience maybe, but to pretend 750 is so low with 1100-1300 resilience expectations is absurd.

its more that some of you have an agenda to either play devils advocate or tied to warriors in some way to defend them. otherwise there is no way you can justify that if you're impartial with some common sense in you....

Blizzard stated a long time ago that they do want protection to be a viable PvP spec. And just becouse they crit for a lot doesn't mean they do more damage than an arms warrior - They don't.
Protection warriors simply aren't as good as you're trying to make them.
And i just realised i fell for Mastertroll Spurmwhale again. Shame on me.

[Spurmwhale]

Blizzard stated a long time ago that they do want protection to be a viable PvP spec. And just becouse they crit for a lot doesn't mean they do more damage than an arms warrior - They don't.
Protection warriors simply aren't as good as you're trying to make them.
And i just realised i fell for Mastertroll Spurmwhale again. Shame on me.

the funny thing is ProtWar's hitting as hard as they do is probably related to what GC said the other day with "Warriors with gear are hitting way too hard right now", bet? and here you are acting like its fine and some resilience issue not being over 1100 which is extreemely laughable....

bet you're wrong way more than i am, but we'll see....

[Bobzor]

the funny thing is ProtWar's hitting as hard as they do is probably related to what GC said the other day with "Warriors with gear are hitting way too hard right now", bet? and here you are acting like its fine and some resilience issue not being over 1100 which is extreemely laughable....

bet you're wrong way more than i am, but we'll see....

I never saw the GC post. But i still see nothing wrong with geared warriors hitting hard as long as they don't do it on people with proper gear.

[Spurmwhale]

I never saw the GC post. But i still see nothing wrong with geared warriors hitting hard as long as they don't do it on people with proper gear.

so how much do you think that hit would be on 1100-1300 resilience? how much are other classes hitting for on the same resilience with nowhere near the same survivability? do you at least agree that a class shouldn't have top notch survivability and even close to top dps? i mean what type of class design are you justifying with protWar's anyways then?

[Bobzor]

so how much do you think that hit would be on 1100-1300 resilience? how much are other classes hitting for on the same resilience with nowhere near the same survivability? do you at least agree that a class shouldn't have top notch survivability and even close to top dps? i mean what type of class design are you justifying with protWar's anyways then?

I fail to see where you're comming from. Protwarriors aren't dominating arenas neither are they unbeatable in duels or topping meters in BGs. They're only "Doing high crits on my furious gear and i can't kill them"

[Spurmwhale]

here is GC's quote btw

---------------------------
-By making sure warriors will no longer scale so much with gear as they have been since the conception of the game what is being done to make sure they stay competitive throughout the expansion from the begining to the end *
Scaling awesomely with gear as compensation for doing bad damage when undergeared is not good game design. Warrior damage with great gear is much too high right now, as it is at the end of every expansion. This isn't surprising to anyone really. The current rage model just doesn't work and we need something more consistent. Consistency is the way to make sure you stay competitive from beginning to end (rather than averaging out at competitive because you're too low at the beginning and too high at the end).
------------------------

altho its obvious to me ingame. there is just no way you can pretend to justify a prot spec'd class hitting nearly that hard. not sure what type of class design you think protWar's are supposed to be based on...

---------- Post added 06-15-2010 at 09:17 PM ----------

I fail to see where you're comming from. Protwarriors aren't dominating arenas neither are they unbeatable in duels or topping meters in BGs. They're only "Doing high crits on my furious gear and i can't kill them"

i'm laughing at your distinction/expectations of 1100-1300 resilience to not get hit for close to 10k from the highest survival class/spec in the game hands down. top players DO QQ about them. they aren't everywhere because it takes gearing/play to be that strong, which not every Warrior can do, but that doesn't mean they're fine.

i'd just love to know what you think top dps classes are hitting for on 750's resilience to even compare them to...

[Bobzor]

here is GC's quote btw

---------------------------
-By making sure warriors will no longer scale so much with gear as they have been since the conception of the game what is being done to make sure they stay competitive throughout the expansion from the begining to the end *
Scaling awesomely with gear as compensation for doing bad damage when undergeared is not good game design. Warrior damage with great gear is much too high right now, as it is at the end of every expansion. This isn't surprising to anyone really. The current rage model just doesn't work and we need something more consistent. Consistency is the way to make sure you stay competitive from beginning to end (rather than averaging out at competitive because you're too low at the beginning and too high at the end).
------------------------

altho its obvious to me ingame. there is just no way you can pretend to justify a prot spec'd class hitting nearly that hard. not sure what type of class design you think protWar's are supposed to be based on...

---------- Post added 06-15-2010 at 09:17 PM ----------



i'm laughing at your distinction/expectations of 1100-1300 resilience to not get hit for close to 10k from the highest survival class/spec in the game hands down. top players DO QQ about them. they aren't everywhere because it takes gearing/play to be that strong, which not every Warrior can do, but that doesn't mean they're fine.

i'd just love to know what you think top dps classes are hitting for on 750's resilience to even compare them to...

He's talking about warriors in general most likely the DPS specs.
And i still don't think that it's wrong that they hit nearlyas hard as the DPS specs. It's not like their survivability is outrageous. I think they're in a fine state where blizzard actually managed to put another playstyle for warriors to pvp with quite nicely. Obviously they could use some tuning but that goes for all classes. Just becouse i once critted 18k on a DK in AB(yes, true story) doesn't mean my entire class is broken/OP and it needs to be nerfed.

[Spurmwhale]

He's talking about warriors in general most likely the DPS specs.
And i still don't think that it's wrong that they hit nearlyas hard as the DPS specs. It's not like their survivability is outrageous. I think they're in a fine state where blizzard actually managed to put another playstyle for warriors to pvp with quite nicely. Obviously they could use some tuning but that goes for all classes. Just becouse i once critted 18k on a DK in AB(yes, true story) doesn't mean my entire class is broken/OP and it needs to be nerfed.

well thats your opinion i guess, that i disagree with. can't make you see the common sense in high survival + high dps being imbalanced design, but oh well. and yes they have probably 5x's the survivability of most other classes, and yes its WAY more extreme. for melee to get thru on them, as well as caster kites.