Define the casual raiding experience?

[Jaronicity]

I would like to point out that I have canceled about 4 or 5 months ago, but still feel I can answer these questions...annnnd I'm bored and it's really humid outside.

1. What exactly do you get out of raiding and for those of you who have been playing casually since vanilla, how do you feel about the changes in raiding? Did you look forward to raiding to see the content, to wear the gear, perhaps both? Was it better to have something to aspire to or is it better the way things are now in wrath of the lich king?
I was probably the ugliest 60 you ever saw. Never really raided (unless running for t0 and t0.5 countless times is included in terms of time spent in these godforsaken dungeons lol). I really started raiding once TBC hit. While I partially support "let's let everyone see content", I felt that it somewhat took away from the excitement of reaching a new tier. In my experience, raiding BT was head and shoulders above ICC simply because so few guilds had access to it (TK and SSC having very challenging end bosses and among my favourites ever) and it made me feel "special". In the end, it never really bothered me if I didn't see the ultimate end-game content. I figured the people who were there deserved to be there and must have worked hard. I know my limits and if it isn't enough to get there, then so be it. I tried my best and worked with what I had in terms of the guild. Initially, I raided to get gear because I liked inspecting people in T2. There's only so much you can do once you hit the ceiling in terms of gear. That said, I made some friends and played with my bro and we always tried to keep things casual in terms of the attitude.

2. What does gear mean to you? Do you care about being optimal or not (in the strictest sense of the word, mathematically absolute) or do you just want to look current with the latest gear that has larger stats than your previous piece of gear? Would you mind if hard mode gear was textured and named differently than yours? If so, why?
I mostly just liked to look cool and be one of those guys that another person would inspect and be like "awwww yeeeeeee." In essence, I wanted to look like those guys that I inspected back in vanilla. I did post and visit EJ frequently - mooching their math skills for my own benefit. But if two pieces of gear were really close, I would always wear the cooler looking piece. I don't really care what they do with the hm gear.

3. Do you engage hard modes at some point in the current instance before the next instance is released? Do you only do the easier ones and skip the rest, or do you clear normal mode until the next instance is released with little thought of attempting any of the hard modes? Would you want hard modes to be nerfed in difficulty after a while to allow them to be defeated easier before the next raid is released?
When I played, we attempted hard modes in Uld and ToC - I wasn't around long enough to play all of ICC. As I recall, we still attempted ToC hard modes (just Anub25) even after we had been in ICC a couple weeks and I got to try Thorim hm and the other big guy in uld with his frozen cache. These are the encounters I loved to play and did find the majority of wotlk normal modes easy. To me, it kind of defeated the purpose since we were getting better gear, but to each his own. I liked the challenge of hard modes. I hope, if I ever come back, they don't nerf them since I get the most fun out of something challenging.

4. Would it bother you if there were more algalon like bosses, bosses available only after defeating a certain number of hard modes? What if that boss was completely detached from the lore and simply a bone thrown to the hardcore raiders?
I'm gonna get Canadian here and compare Algalon (and other bosses akin to him) to winning the Stanley Cup. Teams (aka guilds) that put the time AND effort in consistently should be rewarded in some capacity i.e. winning the Cup or fighting Algalon. Yes, people want to see content, but I think the "work" ethic has been deteriorating since my heyday. I certainly don't intend to say that this game is a job, but working with 9 or 24 other people in a cooperative manner does require work. As far as a detached lore character, it's Blizzard's game and story so they can do what they want as far as I'm concerned.

5. What statement best suits your raiding mentality "hard work pays off" or "I pay to experience everything the game has to offer". Explain
"Hard work pays off." I'm a competitive person in just about everything I do. Going back to my hockey analogy, the teams that work the hardest should be rewarded with at least the chance to garner some kind of prize. This is me nitpicking the hard work part: I don't agree at all with people that can slack and get carried to see new content. At that point they might as well just make a video of it. Some measure of work should be required and, if everyone tries hard, I don't see any reason why anyone can't experience the content. I only raided with one toon and had like 2 alts I rarely played so I wanted him to the best he could be (that sounds so cheesy haha)

6. Between fish feasts flasks, raiding potions (haste, health, mana etc) and buff food do you find this to be too much raid preparation, too little, or just right? Do you bring and use all of these consumables every raid regardless if it is farm content or not?
Not gonna lie, I mooched the feasts big time haha. I always felt I owed it to my guildmates to come prepared in-game. Wasn't really one to read the fights when I was told you because I learn by doing and reading it just made it more confusing. I flasked 99% of the time in a guild raid. PUGs were different since they could be hit-or-miss. Me flasking for farm content depended on how many flasks I had in my inventory at the time.

7. What do you feel is the largest separating factor between you and a hardcore player? Skill? Time? Dedication? Goals? Other? Explain[/B]
Initially, tempted to go with time. In TBC, we raided 2-3 times for 3-4 hours. Some might not call that casual, but as someone mentioned, being "hardcore" and being "casual" is about being able to do whatever in the game without having to adhere to certain obligations. Looking for a guild was hard because a lot of them had conditional attendance (You must attend 85% of the raids, etc.) While I enjoyed raiding, I like to socialize and go drink and play sports and live a life outside the game. ON the contrary, time can only get you so far without having some kind of skill. The guild that raids 5 times a week but can't get any cohesiveness between players might be hard-pressed to stay caught up with a group of skilled players that raid 1-2 times a week. In conclusion, regardless of how much time you have, you NEED dedication from people and it would help if people were "skilled."

[Elektrik]

I honestly feel like any of these questions would work for hardcore raiders too. There isn't really anything specific about them towards casuals...

Switch #2 to: What does gear mean to you? Do you feel that content should be tuned based on the best gear available? Do you mind that regular mode gear is textured and named the same as yours? If so, why?

Switch #7 to: What do you feel is the largest separating factor between you and a casual player? Skill? Time? Dedication? Goals? Other? Explain.



And then all of them can be answered in the same way...

[Noobzilla]

I honestly feel like any of these questions would work for hardcore raiders too. There isn't really anything specific about them towards casuals...

Switch #2 to: What does gear mean to you? Do you feel that content should be tuned based on the best gear available? Do you mind that regular mode gear is textured and named the same as yours? If so, why?

Switch #7 to: What do you feel is the largest separating factor between you and a casual player? Skill? Time? Dedication? Goals? Other? Explain.



And then all of them can be answered in the same way...

Yeah I would agree with that.

[iceberg265]

Hmmm...I'll take a stab at it, since I think I'm the epitome of "casual raider". lol

1. Even the most casual of casual players likes to update their gear on occasion. I get by just fine without doing so, but it's nice to get something "new & improved" now and again. I also like seeing all the nifty zone interiors. Some have been much better than others, no doubt about that, but as an rp'er and someone who gets as much out of the ambiance of a place as others do out of the mobs in a place I look for the feel of a place. I have to say, for instances, that Karazhan, Shadowfang Keep, Scholomance, and Stratholme are uniquely unparalleled for ambiance. But then, I'm a more "classic" rpg gamer and prefer things a little less...out of this world, shall we say?

2. I don't care about being "optimal"... I'm not a min/maxer. Do I like to improve my numbers? Sure... As far as differing appearances of gear? Yes, it matters... The hardcore raiders aren't usually clothes horses...I will choose a lesser piece of gear for its looks. Hardcores won't. Give them the vector-drawn stuff. I mean, really...raiders thought those massive spatulas that were so common in BC were great looking... I kept asking them for a short stack...

3. I don't raid, except when invited AND I have the time and desire to do so, but generally I get to see at least a bit of the "hard modes" before they're "last expansion's content"...generally. Not always, mind you. I've still never seen the inside of Black Temple, but that's the only one aside from ICC beyond Marrowgar that I've not had opportunity to enter.

4. Detached from lore added boss? They can have it all they want... Directly involved in the core story? ummm... I'd have to say I'm torn, really... I suppose it partly depends on how far afield the story about said boss is...? *shrugs* I'm up in the air, really, but I have no issues with a lore-independent unlockable boss being thrown at hardcores. I'm not about wanting raiders unhappy with content...I just wish that feeling were reciprocated. Just once...

5. Neither... However, I partially blame Blizzard for a casual's feelings of having to go to these raids to eel they've experienced the whole game. Go to any hardcore raiding gathering place. They don't care about the look, feel, or story of an instance. Almost never do you see a mention of how well the design or the mobs fit the story. They could be fighting giant vector-drawn boxes for all they care... They're there for the mechanics (the harder the better) and the loot (the bigger numbers the better). That's their core drive. I can't count how many times I've heard "I really love the music in this place" followed quickly by "but it got annoying, so I shut it off after the first loop." *rolls eyes* Not once have I ever heard from a raider that they spent time checking out the layout and design of Karazhan and enjoyed how it felt like they were in a grand castle and how the devs spent so much time in making it feel like a real place... Never. They could have easily spent far less environment design and art assets on designing a different instance for the raiders and left Karazhan as a 5-man instance for the lore whores out there...

6. When I do raid, I try to be prepared... There's a difference between being defiant of the raid and not enjoying the raid scene. I don't enjoy raiding...I do it, however, when the opportunity is there to go with decent people who understand that while I will pull my weight, I'm not competing for the #1 dps position. I don't care about the meters beyond making sure I'm not doing less dps than the ToL Druid... lol

7. Goals and Attitude, actually, are the two core separating factors between someone like me and a "hardcore raider". I want to enjoy the game, progress in multiple areas at my own pace, enjoy some good RP and some ambiance, and enjoy the company of others. I won't expound on this comment beyond that. I'm not "looking for a fight", so...

Sulfuric,

While your goal is a noble one, there will never be a bridge between casual players and hardcore players. There are a couple of core differences that will forever keep the two separated.

1. Hardcores want people to be the best and do the most in the least amount of time possible. Anything less is beneath them and only worthy of their verbal abuses. You see it right here on the MMO-Champion forums constantly... "if you aren't trying to be the very best, if you do something x way instead of y, you're a scrub and need to quit". This is not the attitude of isolated people...this is the general attitude of most hardcores...the vast majority. How do I know? Easy... I've yet to see one hardcore come to the defense of a casual player being verbally attacked by another hardcore for not wanting to be a min/maxer... In fact, it's interesting to watch just one casual talk about building x way instead of y and seeing the hardcores come out of the woodwork to verbally bash them for it...

2. Most hardcores think that only the "shit content" should be wasted on casuals...that they are the ones that play hard and deserve all the attention, screw casuals! *coughs* pardon...I see that so often it you'd swear it was a fast food catch-phrase.

I use the word "most" because I know many hardcore raiders who aren't this way...but they remain silent about it... I highly suspect to avoid being trashed by their supposed "friends", the other raiders...

*shrugs* Until hardcore players cease their unending assault on casuals for not pushing themselves to fit into their mold of "perfection" with an unending assault of insults and "gtfo you loser scrub" comments, the gap will never close. I have no problems with hardcore players going after, and getting, the upper 1% of the gear and the hardest mobs in the game... I take issue with them thinking theirs is the only valid playstyle worthy of development time...

Allow me to translate: "Generalization, opinion, generalization, opinion, opinion with no facts to back it up, generalization, something I made up on the spot, everyone should agree with me, generalization, opinion, its someone else's fault not mine."

[Kaneiac]

1. What exactly do you get out of raiding and for those of you who have been playing casually since vanilla, how do you feel about the changes in raiding? Did you look forward to raiding to see the content, to wear the gear, perhaps both? Was it better to have something to aspire to or is it better the way things are now in wrath of the lich king?

It was better to have things to aspire to. I'm not big on spending 5 hours a night multiple times a week, but I'd like to do more than 10 attempts before people start to get burnt out. Being in the middle is hard, as you're more often than not forced to go below your limitations rather than slightly above, as there isn't much for breathing room.

2. What does gear mean to you? Do you care about being optimal or not (in the strictest sense of the word, mathematically absolute) or do you just want to look current with the latest gear that has larger stats than your previous piece of gear? Would you mind if hard mode gear was textured and named differently than yours? If so, why?

Gear is simply a means to an end, that little boost to hopefully push another boss over the edge. For different gear, nope, I don't mind that at all, I feel that others deserve to get the better reward if they put more time into it. Seeing the content is all I desired. Of course, my viewpoint is a little skewed - I CAN put the time into it, I just choose not to. Some people don't have that option.

3. Do you engage hard modes at some point in the current instance before the next instance is released? Do you only do the easier ones and skip the rest, or do you clear normal mode until the next instance is released with little thought of attempting any of the hard modes? Would you want hard modes to be nerfed in difficulty after a while to allow them to be defeated easier before the next raid is released?

Clear the instance on normal, and then do what can be done. I'm not really a huge fan of nerfing content for the rest of us, it doesn't cheapen the experience, per se, but it does make it less meaningful.

4. Would it bother you if there were more algalon like bosses, bosses available only after defeating a certain number of hard modes? What if that boss was completely detached from the lore and simply a bone thrown to the hardcore raiders?

I'd much rather see difficult bosses in the normal line of progression. I've never seen Algalon, and it was impossible to convince my guild to go do him, even when we had him unlocked/could easily do him now. That really annoyed me.

5. What statement best suits your raiding mentality "hard work pays off" or "I pay to experience everything the game has to offer". Explain

More in the middle. I understand that my $15 dollars at the base of the mountain of content is just for the opportunity. Hard work absolutely has it's place in WoW, that's what an MMO is. But if it promotes unhealthy playstyles and those same unhealthy playstyles are what's rewarded, you run into a bit of an issue.

6. Between fish feasts flasks, raiding potions (haste, health, mana etc) and buff food do you find this to be too much raid preparation, too little, or just right? Do you bring and use all of these consumables every raid regardless if it is farm content or not?

I always had my own flasks, potions, and buff food. Often in overabundant amounts to cover for a few of the less prepared people. I felt it was just right. It's not too hard to farm for any of the materials, and even if you forget to, it's simple to buy them prior to the raid rather than rely on others/guild bank handouts.

7. What do you feel is the largest separating factor between you and a hardcore player? Skill? Time? Dedication? Goals? Other? Explain

Time and a small matter of dedication. I have all the time in the world to raid for hours every day of the week, but I just don't want to. It just doesn't sit right with me. I respect those that do, however, as I'm not one to hop on the hate train.

[hx9]

1. What exactly do you get out of raiding and for those of you who have been playing casually since vanilla, how do you feel about the changes in raiding? Did you look forward to raiding to see the content, to wear the gear, perhaps both? Was it better to have something to aspire to or is it better the way things are now in wrath of the lich king?

I have been playing casually since vanilla, except for a streak to get HWL one summer many moons ago. The content is my primary drive, and you may say that once we downed lich king in this xpac that I didn't really feel like raiding anymore. Things are better now because you can raid with more of your friends. Raiding is still difficult for us, and obviously for many others as Algalon, One-Light, Tribute to Insanity, Ulduar Drakes and most of the hard modes in ICC still aren't doable by many of our people.

2. What does gear mean to you? Do you care about being optimal or not (in the strictest sense of the word, mathematically absolute) or do you just want to look current with the latest gear that has larger stats than your previous piece of gear? Would you mind if hard mode gear was textured and named differently than yours? If so, why?

Yes, we care very much about being optimal. I have missed only a few daily heroics and no weekly raids. Our casual is only raiding 6 hours a week, and we try to get as much done as possible in our short time together. Hardmode gear already says "heroic" on it and as you upgrade your main slots they change color so I don't see why Blizzard should waste development time to make new sets. I'd rather have new content.

3. Do you engage hard modes at some point in the current instance before the next instance is released? Do you only do the easier ones and skip the rest, or do you clear normal mode until the next instance is released with little thought of attempting any of the hard modes? Would you want hard modes to be nerfed in difficulty after a while to allow them to be defeated easier before the next raid is released?

Yes. Even on our tiny schedule, 10 man Ulduar hard modes went down with thanks to extending the instance after we were geared from 25 man. Hard modes shouldn't be easy, they should just be hard modes. I think transition wise in difficulty, things are great. LK is still way on a pedistal for the hardcore guys.

4. Would it bother you if there were more algalon like bosses, bosses available only after defeating a certain number of hard modes? What if that boss was completely detached from the lore and simply a bone thrown to the hardcore raiders?

No. We still haven't downed Algalon and we don't really care about downing him. Just seeing him was enough. As long as we can see them and attempt them (provided we did the rest) or even in a later tier, it's not really a big deal. Content is content reguardless of when you do it.

5. What statement best suits your raiding mentality "hard work pays off" or "I pay to experience everything the game has to offer". Explain

Why can't both? Hard work pays off, but you shouldn't have to work 4 hours a night, 4 nights a week to be able to see the content while it's relevant. Any casual raider should be able to make it through LK by the time the buff reaches 30% so long as they're in an organized group that run things well. I pay to experience everything and I work hard to make sure that what time I have is spent well.

6. Between fish feasts flasks, raiding potions (haste, health, mana etc) and buff food do you find this to be too much raid preparation, too little, or just right? Do you bring and use all of these consumables every raid regardless if it is farm content or not?

We don't use flasks or potions on farm content. Fish feasts are part of our attendance system so we always have those. A lot of consumables are so easy to get now, that most people just flask anyway and even hand them out to friends. The people with more time help those with less.

7. What do you feel is the largest separating factor between you and a hardcore player? Skill? Time? Dedication? Goals? Other? Explain

Time and goals. Our goal is to get drakes, but we don't think we'll down Heroic LK anytime. We don't expect to get it early, we expect to finish it up toward the end. Really it's more about pacing ourselves. In a way, we have to be more skilled at time management, so maybe it's a bit of give and take.

IMO hardcore is too rewarding and detrimental to the heath and welbeing of those people. Raiding the same content each week, 4+ nights a week could be better spent doing other games, or even other WoW activities. Considering many of these players also arena and farm, they may be playing as much as 6 hours a night, 7 days a week. Think of that like watching a 42 hour marathon of a single TV show series.

Blizzard's movement in Cata towards having only 1 lockout and having a few really hard Algalon like bosses is a good progression for the game. It rewards players who spend time well and who perform well, not just players who blow through the content. Because we have to do both 10 and 25 man raids each week, I know our progress has been slowed tremendously. The same goes for the gear differences, as 25 man ToGC still has pretty "required" trinkets, but on off-nights we can only hope to get a 10 man together.

I think all in all, this will really help the hardcore and casual. Casual's will get their gear from 1 raid lockout, not 2 or 4 and can see the content. Hardcore will get additional, difficult bosses.

[Krystal]

My opinion comes from a very casual guild with little to no access to 25m gear that's 10/12 in 10m icc. We've been raiding only 1 night a week and now trying out 2 since we think we've found a 2nd day that can work for people.

1. What exactly do you get out of raiding? Did you look forward to raiding to see the content, to wear the gear, perhaps both? Was it better to have something to aspire to or is it better the way things are now in wrath of the lich king? I see it as a challenge. There's a big mean boss there.. kill it! And yes, we do browse through Atlasloot to see what potential goodies we can acquire along the way.

2. What does gear mean to you? Do you care about being optimal or not (in the strictest sense of the word, mathematically absolute) or do you just want to look current with the latest gear that has larger stats than your previous piece of gear? Would you mind if hard mode gear was textured and named differently than yours? If so, why?I just shoot for the best gear that's within my limits. Sometimes I'll grab stuff on the AH if I feel it will help me. As a girl, yes, I will say, I enjoy looking pretty in the latest gear. However, I wouldn't really care much if the harder stuff looked different.

3. Do you engage hard modes at some point in the current instance before the next instance is released? Do you only do the easier ones and skip the rest, or do you clear normal mode until the next instance is released with little thought of attempting any of the hard modes? Would you want hard modes to be nerfed in difficulty after a while to allow them to be defeated easier before the next raid is released? When Ulduar was out, we engaged in hardmodes quite often for the extra loot, and often succeeded. With ICC, we do plan to hit up some heroic modes when we get LK down on normal.

4. Would it bother you if there were more algalon like bosses, bosses available only after defeating a certain number of hard modes? What if that boss was completely detached from the lore and simply a bone thrown to the hardcore raiders? Na, the more crazy bosses there are, the better.

5. What statement best suits your raiding mentality "hard work pays off" or "I pay to experience everything the game has to offer". Explain Hard work pays off, for sure. I do want to experience as much in the game as possible though, to get my money's worth. But yea. We don't have a line-up of raiders who have their rotations figured out down to the millisecond, have perfect highspeed computers/internet, no rl obligations, etc. Our raids get slowed down for various reasons, but we now have most of the bosses on farm, and we're looking forward to getting our Kingslayers.

6. Between fish feasts flasks, raiding potions (haste, health, mana etc) and buff food do you find this to be too much raid preparation, too little, or just right? Do you bring and use all of these consumables every raid regardless if it is farm content or not? We do bring at least fish feasts and flasks. We don't care about them on farm content, however. If we can down the boss without these buffs, then why waste them? Use them on the harder bosses.

7. What do you feel is the largest separating factor between you and a hardcore player? Skill? Time? Dedication? Goals? Other? Explain Time. The most hardcore guild on our server raids 5 nights a week. We feel that's ridiculous. My boyfriend & I run our guild, and we both have full time jobs and would like to spend time with each other IRL for some evenings, not just in raid. Our members tend to have busy schedules as well. Also, attitude. Whenever I join a pug that's being led by hardcores.. I am miserable. I feel like I'm walking on thin ice. If you give an opinion, you get smacked down. I'm just here to progress and have fun. I don't like stupidity either, but it only takes a few seconds to explain to someone what they're doing wrong and how to correct it. No need to just instantly kick them out. We brought a hardcore to our raid last week, from the said guild who goes 5 nights a week.. and he said he really enjoyed raiding with us. It was a nice change from what he's used to. People are having fun.

I think this is a nice little survey, and I hope that the hardcores that read this will see that casual does not mean someone who is incapable of learning a fight and someone who stands in fire constantly.

[Conxion528]

1. What exactly do you get out of raiding and for those of you who have been playing casually since vanilla, how do you feel about the changes in raiding? Did you look forward to raiding to see the content, to wear the gear, perhaps both? Was it better to have something to aspire to or is it better the way things are now in wrath of the lich king?

I raid for fun. It's something cool to do at night after work. I completely agree with the changes in raiding. I don't believe that having a compatible lifestyle should be a requirement to raid correctly and see content. My primary motivation in raiding is to see content and kill bosses. Gear is just an added bonus.

2. What does gear mean to you? Do you care about being optimal or not (in the strictest sense of the word, mathematically absolute) or do you just want to look current with the latest gear that has larger stats than your previous piece of gear? Would you mind if hard mode gear was textured and named differently than yours? If so, why?

Gear is a means to an end. It is part of the package required for successful raiding. I'm a bear tank...so I'd tank in a purple nightgown & bunny slippers if they were iLevel 277

I wouldn't mind if hardmode gear looked different than mine. Greater achievements should reap greater rewards.

3. Do you engage hard modes at some point in the current instance before the next instance is released? Do you only do the easier ones and skip the rest, or do you clear normal mode until the next instance is released with little thought of attempting any of the hard modes? Would you want hard modes to be nerfed in difficulty after a while to allow them to be defeated easier before the next raid is released?

Not generally. The guilds I've been in have generally cleared all of the normal mode content in a particular tier of raiding, but only done so shortly before the next tier/expansion was released. I would think this is on par with the general belief that normal mode encounters are for more casual guilds, and HMs more for the hardcore guilds. I don't think hardmodes should be nerfed directly, but it would be okay with me if they are indirectly made easier say by the "big patch" before an expansion, since players are made stronger at such an event.

4. Would it bother you if there were more algalon like bosses, bosses available only after defeating a certain number of hard modes? What if that boss was completely detached from the lore and simply a bone thrown to the hardcore raiders?

Sure. I'd take a shot at them if my guild got to that point. I don't care about lore at all, I play for the experience.

5. What statement best suits your raiding mentality "hard work pays off" or "I pay to experience everything the game has to offer". Explain

Hard work pays off. But this work should be time spent in the dungeon, learning the fights, not outside in the world grinding for required consumables to even have a chance in the raid. I'm against artificial time-sinks in general. I'm glad that the SSC days of required resistance gear, attunements and consumable farming are over.

6. Between fish feasts flasks, raiding potions (haste, health, mana etc) and buff food do you find this to be too much raid preparation, too little, or just right? Do you bring and use all of these consumables every raid regardless if it is farm content or not?

It's about right the way it is now, actually. Flasks and buff food are affordable means to make yourself stronger. I don't think they require any unreasonable amount of effort to obtain. I flask & food for all progression content. Pretty much any time there's the chance of me losing fur. :P

7. What do you feel is the largest separating factor between you and a hardcore player? Skill? Time? Dedication? Goals? Other? Explain

I'd have to say time and dedication are the most different between myself and a hardcore player. I travel at the whim of my job, so I can't be in a guild with attendance requirements or an atmosphere where time spent is the most important thing.

I do not believe there is widespread ill-will between hardcores and casuals...I think it is perpetuated by a small subset of vocal, antagonistic individuals in both groups, not much unlike American politics, that is intolerant of the other. In my opinion, people should spend their time playing the game, in the way that they enjoy it the most.

[Theendgamelv3]

1.Well what I get out of is that it is fun, to raid with people you know is fun. I like to see content as well, at the appropriate level if I can (I still have yet to do all of Ulduar). I like SOME challenge, a fun challenge. I remember I tried to stay around 60 to do lvl 60 raid content and yea.....that didn't happen. I didn't do any Vanilla raids til I was 80. Gear is gear, I want it to do better. Unless gear is absolutely crappy looking I don't really care how it looks (although I would wear the ugly gear to raids). Lore comes in to a degree as well, I have yet to see what happens at the end when you kill LK cause I want to see how everything goes (I already know about Bolvar, I just want to see how it came to be lol).

2.Gear is just stats to me. I care to a degree to be optimal, as in get the right enchants, gems and right stats for my class. I mean if a piece of lower gear is better for me, I'll take it. Hardmode gear is that, hardmode gear, so if it looks different, I don't care, same thing with name. People who did the hardest content should be rewarded with such gear.

3.I have done hardmode once and that was Trial of Grand Crusader and that didn't go well. Basically I just want to clear the normal stuff and try out the hard stuff now before it really becomes easy in the next expansion. Eh I don't want to be nerfed before the next raid.

4.Not really, again it is a reward for people who did the hard stuff especially if the boss was detached from lore, then I really don't care. If the HM boss was attached to the lore, it would kinda suck, then again it would be that reward for doing it in hardmode. I would perfer that the end boss had a extra phase or something instead of a extra hardmode boss if the extra hardmode boss was attached to lore.

5.Well nothing stops me from trying to experience everything except myself right, so hardwork pays off would fit my mentality more.

6.LOL omg no. It isn't too much to buy and bring flasks and feasts and raiding potions. I feel that the current set up is more then fine. At the same time I don't look down on others who don't bring that stuff if they don't have the gold or something, but for me personally, no way it is too much raid prep.

7.Skill, dedication, goals would be the big 3. My skill isn't that great compared to best players out there nor do I dedication to be the best hunter in wow or try to get server firsts. My dedication is more of don't suck and carry your weight. So if I am in a 25m raid and I am 5th in dps, I am happy. The only goal I have when I enter the raid is to down the bosses, while more hardcore raiders might have goal to down content as fast they can or do 16k dps or something.

[mutantboy]

1. just fun beating the boss - I don't care about killing LK (or any final boss) I tried doing progression and after the 3rd, 7th, 15th kill of that first boss it gets boring. So I tend not to raid as soon as they come out. I like that raiding is more acessable now, and not being able to do harder bosses is no big deal

2. I truely hate gear as a progression model in wow and most MMO's. But it's part of the game so I accept it for what it is. I don't care what it looks like, what it's stats are, how complicated the set up of gear is.
I kill the boss, /roll and if I get it all good - if not oh well. I do make sure I gem and enchant everything properly while also realising the difference between ilvl 232 and 245 is not actually significant - and the gems are just eye candy to prove I'm not a noob

3. I think I did a hard mode once... But hard modes don't interest me. It's the same content re-hashed. I would be happier if they used a different model (for example extra bosses that dropped items like special marks of sanctification)

4. I think that something like ICC should have 15 bosses - 8-10 being normal (including last boss/prime "lore" char) but 5 being optional and significantly harder with all the best loot. But having said that the Alganon model is OK

5. I utterly despise the "I pay for everything" crowd. Blizz should tell them to fuck off in no uncertain terms. BUT they also have to supply a whole lot of content for teh normal guy and the noob guy as well. The days of the game being catered for mainly hard core players is gone and a good thing too. But they should still have content that is ONLY available to them.

6. 90% of kills in raids are done with a good margin of error. Clean pull, everyone moves and doesn't stand in fires etc. You get the kill and it seemed easy.
Did you need any of those buffs? Absolutely not. Will I still put down a feast and use a flask - pretty much always. Becasue there is always that 10% when you just make it. And if you think you can't afford a flask? GTFO


7.I've seen some of those skilled players. lol. Thats not skill - it familiarity mostly. They do the instance till they know every single part of it. Often by wiping massive amounts of times in the first few weeks of progression. I have done that. E.G. Magtheridon first server kill. Yeah we wiped 40 times over 3 weeks before we got that sucker. Beat out 8 really good guilds to get there first. About that time I realised what I had achieved: nothing that I really cared about. It wasn't fun. Awesome challenge for sure. Stressfull - yes. Putting up with nerd-raging teenagers - yes. How I wanted to spend my nights - hell no