Prot Threat Issues

[Liddus]

KK i'm a prot pally (did'nt read the responses)

He's gear is ok, but there are a few problems.

He's hit is overcaped by 2% and he has only 6 expertise (16 with SoV) the cap is 26, he'll get a little more treath with that.

Bladeward it's situational, moongose would be more treat wise.

Boomkin are the most tps dps class in the game, try to balance your dps and get a salvation eventually.

i know that big numbers and toping the dmg chart it's sweet, but you don't need to smash the dps by making tank's life miserable.

[Kayvas]

KK i'm a prot pally (did'nt read the responses)

He's gear is ok, but there are a few problems.

He's hit is overcaped by 2% and he has only 6 expertise (16 with SoV) the cap is 26, he'll get a little more treath with that.

Bladeward it's situational, moongose would be more treat wise.

Boomkin are the most tps dps class in the game, try to balance your dps and get a salvation eventually.

i know that big numbers and toping the dmg chart it's sweet, but you don't need to smash the dps by making tank's life miserable.

26 in the dodge cap so till 56 expertise continue to be a great threat stat
OP: unless you are doing progress tell him to use the 200 str libram its a GREAT tps tool, a very good idea may also be using che 264 ilvl chest of emblem of frost for 10 more expertise

or just use some pure ret gear with the 25% buff is not a big

[Eurytos]

.....
Boomkin are the most tps dps class in the game, try to balance your dps and get a salvation eventually......

icwutudidthar

[Miedo]

Get him a 264 tanking weapon, and some 264 tanking gear and his threat will also go up.

Get him to max level his BSing and he can fit an extra gem in the gloves/bracers he's wearing. And with a 25% buff, socketing str/stam gems for a non-hardmode tank isn't really an issue.

As other people have mentioned, crusade is a huge threat talent but if he's not actually hitting the mob because his expertise is so low- then it's worthless. Tell him to get the tier 10 legs, and the badge chest. That should give him enough expertise until the feet off valithria drop. Otherwise his talents/spec is fine.

Also, the 264 badge tanking gear is better then the 251 tier tanking pieces, not just because of the extra armor, but also because of better stats. They shouldn't be replaced until 264 tier, or 277. If he goes by stat weighing, tell him to weigh str more when comparing pieces.

[Auton]

I'll try and give some advice, speaking from a Prot pally perspective ... and use Holy Wrath when he's got a spare GCD, he could probably pop 12k TPS without MD.

...I thought you were talking from a PROT PALLY perspective.. prot pallies have ZERO free GCDs.. That's the point of 969.

Looking at the guy's spec, all looks fine.. people suggesting that he pull points from Vindication need to go take a lesson in debuffs 101... I'll give you a hint, bosses only have about 570 attack power, so reducing that to zero with vindication (almost 100% uptime) is an incredible debuff. EVERY prot pally should have this. Not having it is ALMOST as bad as skipping Judgments of the Just.

Seals of the Pure is LESS TPS than Crusade. Crusade ROCKS for threat. Until you get math telling you otherwise, any prot pally putting points into SotP should be laughed at. Again, hint, Crusade affects ALL of your damage, SotP only affects seals and judgments. That being said, I have zero threat issues so I don't even have points in Crusade, instead I have other utility talents to help out our 10 mans on certain fights.

And I saw some people mention frost resist for Sindragosa? Seriously? Who wears frost resist for Sindragosa? The only ones that I know of that wear FR on Sindy are melees working on skillmourne so they don't die to the breaths.

---------- Post added 2010-06-25 at 04:33 PM ----------

Get him a 264 tanking weapon, and some 264 tanking gear and his threat will also go up.

THIS! More than anything else, moving from a 245 weapon to a 264 weapon was the best thing I could do for my threat. Dropped a lot of stats since it was the mace from PP, but the threat increase was insane!

[Cardolan]

26 in the dodge cap so till 56 expertise continue to be a great threat stat
OP: unless you are doing progress tell him to use the 200 str libram its a GREAT tps tool, a very good idea may also be using che 264 ilvl chest of emblem of frost for 10 more expertise

or just use some pure ret gear with the 25% buff is not a big

The value of expertise as a threat stat drops drastically once you pass 26 expertise, which isn't surprising. It's good on gear where it comes in place of avoidance stats, but bad when gemming.

If tanks can afford to lose the defense rating, using a slow one-handed DPS weapon provides a substantial TPS boost.

[purusa]

I used to tank back when Naxx was fairly new, and due to a sudden influx of tanks into our guild (sounds like BS I know, but it's true, we had like 5-6 tanks willing to raid everyweek) So I went holy. After ICC was introduced, I've returned to tanking. Went I first switched back (still using a lot of nax gear) I went into a VoA, and got smoked by pretty much all the dps. Since then I've picked up tons of gear, and importantly, got my 969 down. Even changed my action bars to make my main 5 abilites HUGE.

[tlitd]

(...) the 969 rotation. (...) It's been proven to be the maximum threat & dps rotation. (I)

Seals of the Pure is LESS TPS than Crusade. Crusade ROCKS for threat. Until you get math telling you otherwise, any prot pally putting points into SotP should be laughed at. (II)

I. No, not really. No. Search, read, understand.
II. Prove it, champ. Fair warning : referencing this will get you mocked off the internet.

[MestHoop]

I. No, not really. No. Search, read, understand.
II. Prove it, champ. Fair warning : referencing this will get you mocked off the internet.

Stop trolling. What he said was correct and what the hell is wrong with maintankadin?

[tlitd]

(...) the 969 rotation. (...) It's been proven to be the maximum threat & dps rotation. (I)

Search, read, understand. Look, I'll make it easier for the ignorant crowd : "969 is the highest-threat rotation that maintains 100% Holy Shield Uptime and minimizes JotJ dropoff chance". Which is to say that 6/9 is relatively output-optimal, not absolutely.

Seals of the Pure is LESS TPS than Crusade. Crusade ROCKS for threat. Until you get math telling you otherwise, any prot pally putting points into SotP should be laughed at. (II)

Referencing this will get you mocked off the internet. Secundum quid.

Who the fuck is trolling here, MestHoop ? Display your righteousness somewhere else, for I am unimpressed.

[Frumpy Frumpy Frak]

He needs more expertise and less hit.

The Facelifter should do nicely. And tell him to get that blade ward crap off his weapon, agility or mongoose is the way to go.

[Eurytos]

Search, read, understand. Look, I'll make it easier for the ignorant crowd : "969 is the highest-threat rotation that maintains 100% Holy Shield Uptime and minimizes JotJ dropoff chance". Which is to say that 6/9 is relatively output-optimal, not absolutely.Referencing this will get you mocked off the internet. Secundum quid.

Who the fuck is trolling here, MestHoop ? Display your righteousness somewhere else, for I am unimpressed.

What are you getting at? Are you suggesting that paladins with threat issues should change their rotations to not have 100% uptime on HS, if only to provide a bit more threat but to take significantly more than is necessary dmg? Also, what is this rotation that produces more threat than the current 969? Please, share with us oh wise one.

[Bamboozles]

Search, read, understand. Look, I'll make it easier for the ignorant crowd : "969 is the highest-threat rotation that maintains 100% Holy Shield Uptime and minimizes JotJ dropoff chance". Which is to say that 6/9 is relatively output-optimal, not absolutely.Referencing this will get you mocked off the internet. Secundum quid.

Who the fuck is trolling here, MestHoop ? Display your righteousness somewhere else, for I am unimpressed.

What are you talking about? If you aren't using 969, then you're doing it wrong. 969 is the rotation used to maximize threat output. I don't see where the discrepancy is?

[Dedweight]

As others stated his spec and gear look fine, his spec is slightly different than mine(the two points in DG I put elsewhere but that's a personal preference) but nothing too bad.

Not sure if it was mentioned but if he's always using the Righteous Defense glyph he could swap it for the Judgement glyph for most fights and only swap to the other for taunt sensitive fights(H DBS, Festergut(I think he's the one can never remember the right name for those two bosses), and Putricide though even then the glyph is iffy with his 13% spell hit.

Also I haven't read too much on Blade Warding and it used to be(still is?) I fairly poor choice for Paladin tanks. He could consider swapping the enchant for Mongoose or possibly the 65 AP or 20 Str enchants.

[MestHoop]

Search, read, understand. Look, I'll make it easier for the ignorant crowd : "969 is the highest-threat rotation that maintains 100% Holy Shield Uptime and minimizes JotJ dropoff chance". Which is to say that 6/9 is relatively output-optimal, not absolutely.

We're talking about tank threat here. Saying that dropping holy shield and JotJ will net you higher TPS is like saying you will get higher TPS if you wear full DPS gear.
If you're talking about optimizing your rotation for threat for tanking within raids, it's implied that you also keep up your buffs/debuffs which increase survivability.
It's like going to the warrior forums and telling people they forgot to add demo. shout to their rotation. Everyone does that anyway, there's no reason to mention it again.

Referencing this will get you mocked off the internet. Secundum quid.

Second time you said this without any real back-up. The wiki page doesn't apply.
The fact of the matter is that DPS and TPS coming from a certain rotation revolves around math, and thus end results can be calculated.
Gear does not matter in this case as these are calculated based on %. The only exceptions are these: set bonuses and reckoning.
Reckoning scales directly with weapon damage and in the example theck used the 251 version of the marrowgar mace and OHMYGAWDWHATACOINCIDENCE that's the same weapon the OP's tank is using.
Set bonuses (such as 2p t10) further increase the usefulness of crusade over SotP aside from the tier 8 bonus. We're talking t10 content here so this doesn't even apply.

Who the fuck is trolling here, MestHoop ? Display your righteousness somewhere else, for I am unimpressed.

You're just nitpicking on shit that doesn't even apply to the OP's question. You disregard implied information yet you go around, quote people and then tell them they suck without valid argumentation (Though I have to admit, so did I in my previous post).

[Gaffer]

69 is the rotation used to maximize threat output. I don't see where the discrepancy is?

As was pointed out, this is a common misconception. 96969 maximizes threat under certain conditions that are favorable to tanking. Utilizing Avenger's Shield and Hammer of Wrath are threat increases, though that increase comes at the expense of some of your survivability. That said, 96969 still should be used, especially since I assume the original poster is unaware of the rotation.

As others stated his spec and gear look fine, his spec is slightly different than mine(the two points in DG I put elsewhere but that's a personal preference) but nothing too bad.

Divine Guardian is such an amazingly powerful cooldown that now Protection or Holy Paladin should ever be without it. Three talent points for a second Damage Reducing cooldown that doubles as raid protection is outstanding.

Referencing this will get you mocked off the internet. Secundum quid.

I'd also be interested in hearing more about this. What I found most interesting was you referencing one Theck post to support your findings while damning another of his posts. Regardless, such hostile statements need some sort of support.

[Eurytos]

As was pointed out, this is a common misconception. 96969 maximizes threat under certain conditions that are favorable to tanking. Utilizing Avenger's Shield and Hammer of Wrath are threat increases, though that increase comes at the expense of some of your survivability. That said, 96969 still should be used, especially since I assume the original poster is unaware of the rotation.

This is absurd talk. Just like the other guy that said it was "under certain conditions."
Also, most everyone in this thread is looking at this from the wrong point of view. The tank is not the one with threat issues, its the dps. DPS should control themselves until the tank is on a lvl that can handle the threat output of dps, not vice versa.

Tanks that use a rotation that doesn't maximize their survivability are doing it wrong. Threat is secondary to surviving. Certainly it is important, and the OP can likely do things to increase his threat, but no one can argue that an unhealable tank is really not a tank at all.

Survivability is the most important thing as a tank, and the 969 rotation establishes this first, and threat second. They work together. The dps should diverge from their rotations far before a tank does. Using AS and HoW on CD in the 9 spot at the expense of HS is not acceptable. Using it in place of the other 9 spots is certainly viable and, if youre having threat issues like the OP, can be useful.

I could make the same argument for SS. If you dont have a holy paladin in your raid with SS on the tank, I would argue that SS should be used on yourself every 1min, especially in place of a threat/dmg producing spot in the rotation.

I know some of my examples might be considered extreme or unnecessary(they may be)but, the whole point of this is that saying a tank should divert from the highest survivability rotation(that also produces enough threat when executed properly, mind you) in favor of a rotation that exposes the tank to more dmg is not a valid argument for helping this lad increase his threat. Refining rotation, gear, gems, etc., is more helpful.

[Gaffer]

The tank is not the one with threat issues, its the dps. DPS should control themselves until the tank is on a lvl that can handle the threat output of dps, not vice versa.

We're getting wayyy offtopic here, but tank threat is currently ridiculous. Outside of the first ten seconds of a mob pick up (solved by various threat redirections), a tank should never be struggling with threat.

Beyond that, all that we're doing is correcting your untrue statement about 96969 being the maximum threat output when. No one said anything about using the other, higher threat abilities and, in fact, everyone has said you should use 96969. That said, the static rotation isn't the end-all, be-all and there are certainly times where you should consider adjusting that rotation based on needs including situationally dropping Holy Shield.

Using AS and HoW on CD in the 9 spot at the expense of HS is not acceptable.

Also offtopic, but the cost of sacrificing a Judgement when you might risk losing Judgements of the Just is going to turn out to be much greater than skipping a Holy Shield.

[woulacrosse]

Wow this has gone way off topic...

To the OP...The real bottom line here is your pally is pulling insufficient threat. 7-8k is not optimal for his gear setup, many tanks would pull that with less gear. Tell him to work on his rotation more, cause i can tell you right now that's his prob.

[Eurytos]

We're getting wayyy offtopic here, but tank threat is currently ridiculous. Outside of the first ten seconds of a mob pick up (solved by various threat redirections), a tank should never be struggling with threat.

except the OP was having threat issues, so this^ is irrelevant.

Beyond that, all that we're doing is correcting your untrue statement about 96969 being the maximum threat output when. No one said anything about using the other, higher threat abilities and, in fact, everyone has said you should use 96969. That said, the static rotation isn't the end-all, be-all and there are certainly times where you should consider adjusting that rotation based on needs.

I didn't say it was the highest threat output rotation. So this^ is irrelevant.

Also offtopic, but the cost of sacrificing a Judgement when you might risk losing Judgements of the Pure is going to turn out to be much greater than skipping a Holy Shield.

kinda proving my point now with this^.


So I'll say it once again, and hope your reading comprehension is a bit better. In regards to the OP, advising him to deviate from the 969 rotation to generate more threat is bad advice. Instead, it is more helpful to suggest refining his rotation, along with other things one might notice from his armory. Considering his armory looked to be fine, and his gear was in line with the rest of his raid, the only logical conclusion is that his rotation is not tuned. Meaning, he could be doing better. If he does better then he wont have threat issues because 969 is more than sufficient to supply the needed threat while also keeping his survivability at its highest.

If you read between the lines, what I'm really trying to say is that we as a community should be more clear when giving ppl advice on doing certain things. To say one thing is good at the expense of another might be TRUE advice, but it isnt always GOOD advice, in this case it was threat/survivability. It could be numerous other things in other threads. MMOC isnt a site like EJs or others that regulate everything said in specific forums down to minor details, so we have to be more accountable to ourselves so that we not only give true advice but also good advise for the question at hand.