1. #1

    Lightbulb Off Specs and Artifacts

    While unfortunately I have yet to receive a beta invite, and despite being overall optimistic for Legion, I am somewhat concerned about what I've read about the rate in which artifacts are upgraded. To my understanding, it takes a relatively lengthy amount of time to upgrade and fill out your artifact, and even more so when trying to do so with more than one. As one who enjoys playing multiple classes and specs, this seems like an issue that will ultimately funnel people into one spec / class.

    I have seen feedback on this, but this is Blizzard in a beta we are talking about, so we will see. If the rate in which artifact power is acquired isn't adjusted to be more friendly to effectively being able to switch between different specs / roles, what do you all think about making artifact power be shared across all artifacts, thus having all 3 / 4 level up together. By doing this, healers (tanks?) wouldn't have to work twice as hard to either level up their character or make their weapon competitive, as well as easing the transition between DPS specs.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Maugin View Post
    I have seen feedback on this, but this is Blizzard in a beta we are talking about, so we will see. If the rate in which artifact power is acquired isn't adjusted to be more friendly to effectively being able to switch between different specs / roles, what do you all think about making artifact power be shared across all artifacts, thus having all 3 / 4 level up together. By doing this, healers (tanks?) wouldn't have to work twice as hard to either level up their character or make their weapon competitive, as well as easing the transition between DPS specs.
    It already is adjusted to be more off-spec friendly since you'll acquire artifact knowledge that will boost the rate at which you'll get artifact power.

    http://blizzardwatch.com/2016/04/22/...rtifact-power/
    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    >"*any change happens*"

    OMG BLIZZ YOU HAD ONE JOB!!

  3. #3
    It's just that the artifact knowledge items don't work right yet so most of us don't get to test pacing

  4. #4
    I'm more concerned that the artifact weapons are just a way to implement Vanilla Talent Tree 2.0. Granular % increases on a spell? We left that shit behind in MoP for a much better system (albeit still a flawed system). I might just main multiple classes so I can fill each role without having to deal with offspec artifact issues.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    It already is adjusted to be more off-spec friendly since you'll acquire artifact knowledge that will boost the rate at which you'll get artifact power.

    http://blizzardwatch.com/2016/04/22/...rtifact-power/
    That doesn't really solve the issue. With the current level of grind in place (and horrible balance, seriously to unlock the gold dragons you literally need 10x more artifact power as a shadowpriest than as a rogue) you want to funnel everything into your mainspec. Any time spent on your offspec is power wasted for mainspec. This is even true after filling it up since well, you gain a % dps or healing increase based on how much you grinded.

    Its a pretty big concern, and is very much like diablo's paragon leveling system... which did not turn out well at all.
    Ones brain cannot co-pilot if ones mouth is on auto-pilot.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I'm more concerned that the artifact weapons are just a way to implement Vanilla Talent Tree 2.0. Granular % increases on a spell? We left that shit behind in MoP for a much better system (albeit still a flawed system). I might just main multiple classes so I can fill each role without having to deal with offspec artifact issues.
    There is always a % boost thing in each expansion though. As for Vanilla you had to choose which talents to use even if most of them were % boost. With the Artifact you will end up getting ALL of them, just in different orders. In Draenor we had specific spell upgrades randomly given out as we level up (or was it a specific order?).

  7. #7
    I have to say I really don't understand why some specs can unlock their golden traits by 24 and others take as long as 29. Those 5 trait points will take a long time to get.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Antermosiph View Post
    That doesn't really solve the issue. With the current level of grind in place (and horrible balance, seriously to unlock the gold dragons you literally need 10x more artifact power as a shadowpriest than as a rogue) you want to funnel everything into your mainspec. Any time spent on your offspec is power wasted for mainspec. This is even true after filling it up since well, you gain a % dps or healing increase based on how much you grinded.
    Depends on what you think the issue is. OP mentioned that he didn't want to grind everything twice, which he doesn't have to, so the issue according to him, according to Blizzard, according to me, is already solved.

    If you think that you shouldn't have to make decisions about what spec to level, and that everyone should be able to play every spec at the same level for whatever reason, then yes you have an issue with the current system, but it's definitely not the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antermosiph View Post
    Its a pretty big concern, and is very much like diablo's paragon leveling system... which did not turn out well at all.
    How is it anything like the paragon leveling system?
    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    >"*any change happens*"

    OMG BLIZZ YOU HAD ONE JOB!!

  9. #9
    There arent already about 10 threads exactly the same as this one, or anything.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    There is always a % boost thing in each expansion though. As for Vanilla you had to choose which talents to use even if most of them were % boost. With the Artifact you will end up getting ALL of them, just in different orders. In Draenor we had specific spell upgrades randomly given out as we level up (or was it a specific order?).
    I spent some time considering a few talking points regarding some of the problematic core systems of Wow combat. To start, I would like to shift away from the artifact as a weapon and focus more on the 'talents' side of the discussion. We seem to have developers exercising conflicting philosophies when designing the combat aspects of the game. There's a difference between what defined talents in earlier expansions and what defines talents now, and those differences are not beneficial to the overall game. So then, what exactly defines a talent, ability, or glyph these days? I've asked other players that, I've asked myself that, and I can't seem to come up with an answer.

    For those unfamiliar with World of Warcraft, we have a combat system designed around Four main ways to customize your character. You have gear, specializations, talents, and glyphs. While I am trying to avoid a discussion about gear for the moment, I understand the relationship the Artifact Weapon will have in regard to character customization in Legion and I am planning on discussing that a little later. At the present, we should discuss the other three systems and their relationship to each other in the current expansion. Found in each players spell book,there are a set of basic abilities they learn automatically as they level. Additionally, choosing a specialization unlocks another set of abilities, giving your class a different flavor based on the spec chosen. This is the primary foundation for customing your character, as this is where you will see the most difference across your class. These specializations will form the basis of your core rotation and offer tools unique to your spec. Most of these are active abilities that offer benefits upon key press. Some of these are passive abilities that modify other abilities. All of your base and specialized abilities are found in your spell book UI.

    Talents give you a set of tools to further modify your spec with. Many of these are passive abilities designed to augment your other abilities compared to other players of the same spec. Other talents are abilities themselves, with built in modifiers to change depending on your active specialization.

    Glyphs are the newest addition to the customization family, offering a set of tools to modify your spec with (sound familiar?). Most of these are passive modifiers for your spells, with some of them being new abilities themselves. Noticing a pattern here? If I'm being honest, I would have to admit there's quite a bit of overlap in the design space of these systems. Which is what Blizzard must have realized prior to making the announcment they've decided to remove glyphs as a customization system in Legion. Glyphs that offer incremental increases will be removed or baked into the spells they benefit. Glyphs that add an ability will be considered for addition to the spellbook permanently as a base ability (and it appears as though they're being made availalbe at level 1). Glyphs that modify abilities in other ways will likely be added as selectable modes of using the spell they benefit inside the spellbook. Overall, this seems like a step in the right direction for Glyphs, but what about the Talent UI and Spellbook?

    Again, if I'm being honest, these 3 systems are completely redundant in design philosophy. They weren't always like that. Once upon a time, there was a pretty clear distinction between your spell book and the talent tree ui. Abilities found in your spell book were still basic and specialized abilities, but your talents were either passive ability modifiers or spec flavored active abilities. You didn't find passive abilities in the spell book. You didn't find base abilities in the Talent Tree. So then what happened? Blizzard decided that the problems caused by the old talent design warranted an overhaul, streamlining the talent trees by moving all the passive incremental modifiers to the spell book, citing the need to remove the 'meaningless choices' from the talent trees.

    That's right. They removed the old system because it didn't offer compelling choices to players. And then ruined any differentiation between the systems. But what's this? In Legion, we're weapons with talent trees on them. And not just *any* talent trees, but the ones that Blizzard removed due to them lacking in meaningful choice. At the end of the day, Artifact talents aren't any more meaningful, and the only difference will be that you just get one tree tree for your spec (can't hybrid spec) and there isn't a limit to how many of the talents you can unlock. Ultimately, these talents offer less meaningful choice than the original talents because you can just get everything by some point.
    Did I say talents? I mean 'Artifact Traits.' Don't want Blizzard to get angry. I'm not sure I like the current system any more than the old system, nothing is clearly defined anymore. I'm also not sure that's being fixed in Legion. I'd like to have a spellbook AND a talent tree again.

  11. #11
    I agree with most of what you mention in the post above. However considering we will be able to unlock all things in the end on the Artifact Weapon I don't see the reason why the choices in it needs to be meaningful other than the obvious addition of a new ability which it has a couple. I have to say I prefer the Artifact system of upgrading our character compared to the Draenor version where we randomly was assign a spell upgrade on each level. If I remember correctly it was random in the way that you might not get them in the same order as another of the same class.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Antermosiph View Post
    That doesn't really solve the issue. With the current level of grind in place (and horrible balance, seriously to unlock the gold dragons you literally need 10x more artifact power as a shadowpriest than as a rogue) you want to funnel everything into your mainspec. Any time spent on your offspec is power wasted for mainspec. This is even true after filling it up since well, you gain a % dps or healing increase based on how much you grinded.

    Its a pretty big concern, and is very much like diablo's paragon leveling system... which did not turn out well at all.
    This is so correct. And it's slow going gathering power... For beta peeps that have only played a few hours it seems reasonable... because the first few points in the weapon come quickly... but each additional point continues to cost more and more... and the feeling of "progression" gets lost.

    Indeed... even after the LONG time it will take to level your "artifact knowledge" (the stuff that increases how much power you earn from items) you will find yourself spending on your main spec weapon. I suspect at some point they will backtrack and make resources available to all specs... meaning you earn 50,000 power... then EACH spec has 50k available to it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    I agree with most of what you mention in the post above. However considering we will be able to unlock all things in the end on the Artifact Weapon I don't see the reason why the choices in it needs to be meaningful other than the obvious addition of a new ability which it has a couple. I have to say I prefer the Artifact system of upgrading our character compared to the Draenor version where we randomly was assign a spell upgrade on each level. If I remember correctly it was random in the way that you might not get them in the same order as another of the same class.
    Because of the feeling of progression. You may have one class whose placement of the talents and the value (meaningful increase of power) si really high for say 10,000 power.... but another class/spec's tree is not as well thought out and taking longer. You spend days grinding power and seeing no real "upgrade" to your character... while Joe Rogue received a MASSIVE upgrade in power for half the work.

    That translates to some classes/specs being able to farm and grind resources/materials/gold/legendaries much faster than you... all the while your frustration builds as you get sat from raids until you grind out a lot more artifact power. Or maybe you cannot compete in the CM's or Mythics while others have long since been farming them.

    This is going to happen.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    Because of the feeling of progression. You may have one class whose placement of the talents and the value (meaningful increase of power) si really high for say 10,000 power.... but another class/spec's tree is not as well thought out and taking longer. You spend days grinding power and seeing no real "upgrade" to your character... while Joe Rogue received a MASSIVE upgrade in power for half the work.

    That translates to some classes/specs being able to farm and grind resources/materials/gold/legendaries much faster than you... all the while your frustration builds as you get sat from raids until you grind out a lot more artifact power. Or maybe you cannot compete in the CM's or Mythics while others have long since been farming them.

    This is going to happen.
    I would assume that all Artifact had the same amount of unlocks otherwise it would be strange in the way that Blizzard believes that some classes need more buffing than others and yet choose to do that through the Artifact instead of actually buffing them directly.

  14. #14
    The application process for "serious" guilds will now include a screenshot of your artifact tree for the spec you are apping as.

    Calling it now.


    OT: Given the exponential scaling, it takes less AP to get three artifacts to L30 than it does to get a single artifact to L34. Players will have to make intelligent discisions as to how they want to spend their AP and their time. One thing that is absolutely certain is that players with more time to grind will have an unmistakeable power advantage over those who just casually log in a few times a week. Not that i have any complaint about that - but many people will once that realization sets in with the general populace.

  15. #15
    i havent really checked on beta, but how exactly do artifacts go about "retraining"? like if you want to switch around stuff, can you unlearn something, get your AP back and put it somewhere else?

  16. #16
    Respeccing your artifact costs as much AP as would your next trait purchase. The balance is returned to your artifact and can be respent for that artifact only. Respeccing will become enormously expensive once you have devoted a lot of grind to levelling your weapon.

    It is the weapon that earns the experience, not the player. So AP earned on one weapon is utterly useless for any other.
    Last edited by Nihilan; 2016-06-06 at 06:31 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilan View Post
    Respeccing your artifact costs as much AP as would your next trait purchase. The balance is returned to your artifact and can be respent for that artifact only. Respeccing will become enormously expensive once you have devoted a lot of grind to levelling your weapon.

    It is the weapon that earns the experience, not the player. So AP earned on one weapon is utterly useless for any other.
    And really, there rarely is a reason to retrain.

    My plan is to use AP for my soloing spec up to the first golden trait (grab ashes to ashes for ret unless things stay like they are and prot ends up leveling faster) then use AP on your mainspec till cap.

  18. #18
    There is usually a path with better ST and a path with better AOE, or better survivability in the case of tanks. It definitely pays to at least think ahead a bit before diving in.

    Just imagine the outcry that will come a month after Legion launches and Blizzard launches one of their big tuning patches. If they dont provide full artifact refunds to effected players who suddenly find that thier traits have been nerfed or reshuffled the rage will be very real.
    Last edited by Nihilan; 2016-06-06 at 09:35 PM.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord sykoex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilan View Post
    There is usually a path with better ST and a path with better AOE, or better survivability in the case of tanks. It definitely pays to at least think ahead a bit before diving in.
    Interesting, nice to know that your choices matter.

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