Screenshot of the Day, Blue Post, Concept Art

[Medivh]

CATA = end of 25ppl guilds and raiding
/sad

I agree totally!!!

[Buckwald]

Eh, no? It's because of all those addons called DBM, BigWigs, AVR, that AVR-wannabe addon that uses your screen as a top-down map instead of the 3d world (forgot the name) and all the like.

This is why any scrub can clear Icecrown nowdays, but not Naxx pre-TBC.

No one can clear Naxx pre-TBC, because it doesn't exist anymore... and even when it was current content a majority of the WoW population never saw it nor cleared it, does that make them scrubs?

But, no, not "any scrub", actually what is your definition of a scrub? Do I fall into your definition? My main is a Death Knight, I raid 9 hours a week, sometimes 12 if I make my guild's Sunday raid. I only play maybe 15 hours a week. I'm 10/12 ICC 25 Heroic. I mean you can check my armory in the link below if you want more. So, a scrub is someone who doesn't put in as much time as you? They don't stay on MMO-Champ or EJ? What is the big deal that the someone gets to see the same content you see? Their experience and fun should not take yours away. Unless of course they are try to grief or troll in trade chat.

[kaijyuu]

25s will be alive and well if all these people claiming to like them are indicative of wow's general population, and not just a vocal minority.

Time will tell. 25s will just have to survive on their own merits rather than being propped up.

[NefariousNinja]

The Bridge in Redridge Mountains
No spoilers, but there is no way we could request Redridge without the bridge playing a prominent role.

Hehe, it would be funny if Deathwing decided to blow it up just to be a jerk.

[powerstuck]

Hmmm, what would be the case scenario for this, say a guild ran a 25 man run of WotA and then due to member dropout issues had to split the raid to 2x10's. Would the loot table change dramatically, what I mean is: if the next boss were to drop a Legendary could it drop twice due to there now being 2 raid groups or only once since it started as a 25 so it's programmed to only drop once.?

From my understanding you cannot run two different 10mans out of one 25man raid since they will share the same lockout (RaidID : 123456789 - 25m run becomes RaidID : 123456789 - 10m run) you only change the number and difficulty.

---------- Post added 06-18-2010 at 07:29 AM ----------

I don't care what incentive they are going to give in 25man to make it viable over 10man. Don't care if it's a legendary, more loot, more gold, more mounts, more whatever. But they better keep 25man alive and give enough motivation so my guild and all current 25man raiding guilds keep raiding 25man. If not the game is over for me.

10man does not even come close to the epicness of 25man. 10man are for lazy people. It won't be fair if 10man is exactly the same as 25man, same difficulty, same loot, same vanity items and in the same amount. This way 25man will die out because 95% of the people play for gear, want to earn it the easiest way possible and show it off in cities. Dunno what poeple get from doing the latter.

I respect your opinion, but here is mine :

25man does not even come close to the epicness of 10man. 25man are for lazy people. It won't be fair if 25man is exactly the same as 10man, same difficulty, same loot, same vanity items and in the same amount. This way 10man will die out because 95% of the people play for gear, want to earn it the easiest way possible and show it off in cities. Dunno what poeple get from doing the latter.

---------- Post added 06-18-2010 at 07:31 AM ----------

The Bridge in Redridge Mountains
No spoilers, but there is no way we could request Redridge without the bridge playing a prominent role.

Hehe, it would be funny if Deathwing decided to blow it up just to be a jerk.

lol, Didnt they speak somewhere of horde establishing a camp in Elwynn...maybe the brigde will play a PVP role into that.

[Alraml]

The Bridge in Redridge Mountains
No spoilers, but there is no way we could request Redridge without the bridge playing a prominent role.

Hehe, it would be funny if Deathwing decided to blow it up just to be a jerk.

I keep getting the mental image of the bridge being completed, the wood being weak in one place and Foreman Oslow breaking it and getting stuck in his own bridge.

[Druchii]

Boub, you broke the front page.

It no longer shows new posts at the top.

[DodgeOwner]

O'Neill, that screenshot appears to be of Goa'uld origin. We must investigate..

Grab Teal'c, Hes sure to tell us whats up!

[AuthurDent]

Hah, Skill>gear, there you have it guise. Right from the mouth of GC.

We have always known this... hwoever.. GC's comment was outrageously exaggerated.

"because the skill of the raiding population has grown so dramatically"

Really? I mean REALLY? I suppose if you are talking about the "TRUE" raider.. then yes while their numbers have dropped in HALF... the other half have increased in skill. But if you add the umpteen bazillion casual peeps that are applying to guilds to fill in the void... then no... NOOOO way is skill getting higher "on overage"... it is SOOO dumbed down it isn't funny.

[Micutu]

We have always known this... hwoever.. GC's comment was outrageously exaggerated.

"because the skill of the raiding population has grown so dramatically"

Really? I mean REALLY? I suppose if you are talking about the "TRUE" raider.. then yes while their numbers have dropped in HALF... the other half have increased in skill. But if you add the umpteen bazillion casual peeps that are applying to guilds to fill in the void... then no... NOOOO way is skill getting higher "on overage"... it is SOOO dumbed down it isn;t funnt.

Just don't recruit idiots period

And for all those "this will be the end of 25s" "omg, gc is writing bullshit, 10s are for dumb people" "omg, vanilla was so much better, now there is full of idiots around us" I can only smile.
Yes, the population has grown, and thus more inexperienced people play nowdays, but you have the option to play with your friends, which should either do good enough or is time to find some other friends in game. It's your own choise to play with idiots so stop blaming blizzard, they are just making money and offering you entertainment. If you don't like it, quit it and stop making drama.

Yes, alot of content was dumbed down, part for making it most part of the game available for masses for the entertainment, part becuase you outgear it, but that's why you were given hardmodes. Don't tell me all of you who QQ just 1 shot hardmode bosses as they were shipped with the appropriate gear (not talking 10s using 25s gear).

Anyway QQ more somewhere else

[Phonix]

We have always known this... hwoever.. GC's comment was outrageously exaggerated.

"because the skill of the raiding population has grown so dramatically"

Really? I mean REALLY? I suppose if you are talking about the "TRUE" raider.. then yes while their numbers have dropped in HALF... the other half have increased in skill. But if you add the umpteen bazillion casual peeps that are applying to guilds to fill in the void... then no... NOOOO way is skill getting higher "on overage"... it is SOOO dumbed down it isn't funny.

It's not hard to learn how to raid.....it never has been......please shut up go play in a busy road and take your elitism with you ^^!

True raider?, lol people who learn how to raid and have the time to raid all day every day aren't true raiders just people with time, there are no "true" raiders. It depends on the people you play with. Raiding requires group work, you need a group of people, with skill. A lot of people do have skill now like GC said, if there are idiots, don't play with them, flame them, and they'll never learn

Why can't casual people have skill? or enjoy raiding?, i bet there are casuals with better skill than you "hard core" raiders, but at the end of the day there casual for a reason. Like i said, take your elitism and shove it up your arse

[AuthurDent]

Just don't recruit idiots period

It's your own choise to play with idiots so stop blaming blizzard, they are just making money and offering you entertainment. If you don't like it, quit it and stop making drama.

While others are QQing.. I am ecstatic about 10's having access to top gear... as are a LOT of serious, skilled peeps. Maybe we only makeup 20% of the "serious" raiding population that's still playing... but who are you gonna fill those 5 seats in your raid... when we leave to start/join serious progression driven 10 man guilds?

MANY 25 man guilds will breakup over this... because while it's easy to SAY "Don't recruit idiots"... it's much harder in practice when ALL that there is left are the inexperienced, casual players.

ANYONE that says there is a pool of experienced peeps to recruit from is full of shit.

So with only 20 peeps// what you gonna do? Recruit the inexperienced peeps... or just sit there and wait for 5 skilled peeps to "poooof" out of thin air...

Oh I know.. split in to two 10 man teams... "fixed"

25 man will become the new "casual" raids... the ones getting pugged because more peeps can be carried and get more lootz/badges... First 2-3 bosses killed then it disbands.. while the 10's clear each week and get "more gearz", server firsts and nearly ZERO drama.

Lovin' it...

[restoftw]

How are people suppose to learn to play though? I just left a raid weekly that was Malygos, 4 of the people had never even seen the fight!! Somehow in 2 years these people had never been in there once on any character???!!!!? of course someone gave a quick overview of the fight, we pulled and wiped at the first vortex and then i and a couple others just left.

Is this what the game is suppose to become? Carry people through heroics so they can get the latest tier gear and still do 1700dps? and then get stuck carrying them through raids.

Maybe you should stop being a douchebag and try help those that didnt understand? if you did that you would probably had downed him.

[AuthurDent]

A TRUE raider:

Is a person who committs to a guilds raiding schedule. IT's liek asoftball team... you PLAN to be there... not show up if nothign else "gets in the way"

You come prepared with all consumables... not show up and say "Sorry I forgot to farms mats".

They research their toon, gear, spec, rotation/priority every week... and then practice them in 5 mans, weeklies and dummies.

They reseach the fights... adjust their addons and UI... and have discussions with other guildies about tactics/tips.

Has NOTHING to do with raiding 30 hours + per week... unless THAT is what you comitted to.

And finally... it's being able to stand in the fire once... seeing it's bad, and adjusting so that you don't do it again.

---------- Post added 06-18-2010 at 12:33 PM ----------

The word "Casual" has a lot bad stigma attached that is unfair.

Of COURSE casuals can be some of the most highly skilled players... they simply either cannot or choose not to play the game any more than they do. NOTHING wrong with that at all.

But a "casual" softball player doesn't join a team that plays in a league... they may get a game together every once in a while.. and that suits them. Because they cannot or do not want to COMMIT to showing up to practice 3 times a aweek and game 2 times a week.

Then you have the "Wannabe's" The peeps that are SOOO excited about raiding... they push and grind and research and such... they raid their asses off and they are pretty good. But after getting mostly geared up... they kinda lose interest and get bored... they "got their gearz" and wow... playing Xbox with Joe sound more fun than raiding tonight with the guild. Eventually they drop out of the guild.. and your guild has to try and gear up ANOTHER person.

Then you have the inexperienced peeps... Peeps who may VERY well become committed team players... but simply lack the skills/experience to be of benefit to the team.. at least for some time. If they show initiative you may kite them thru raids to gear them... but without consistent Heroics and raiding they will not skillup very quickly.

And lastly you have people who are truly inept. No matter HOW much they or you try.. they do not have the where-with-all to develop the skills and situational awareness to become a contributing raid member.


That leaves us with the "True" or "serious" raider. Who simply is the hobbyist. Raiding in WoW is their hobby. WHen you are into a hobby.. you incorporate it into your life... you read magazines and websites, watch videos, makes plans to get equipment and practice diligently. You think about it form time to time when not in game.

There is nothign elitist about me or the above viewpoints. I am simply stating the fact that hobbyists are becoming few and far between... and that in Cataclysm they will tend to reorganize and clump together to share their hobby with likeminded peeps.

[Clbull]

If you want to know a little secret, part of the reason we can't use gear as a barrier to entry any longer is because the skill of the raiding population has grown so dramatically. The guilds who got the first kills in Icecrown probably could have done it with gear from a couple of tiers prior (with the possible exception of heroic LK). Skill trumps an enormous amount of power from gear.

You heard it here first.

Ghostcrawler confirms the point which every idiot who uses GearScore doesn't understand. Skill trumps an enormous amount of power from gear.

[Deleted]

I know what happens to redridge *Shakes booty* God I love being in the alhpa.

/envy

[Clbull]

Maybe you should stop being a douchebag and try help those that didnt understand? if you did that you would probably had downed him.

THIS. A million times over.

If you haven't done Malygos at this time, it could either be because of one of these 2 reasons:

• You semi-recently dinged 80. I mean in the Trial of the Crusader days. (Most likely, its like everything below Icecrown Citadel is now obsolete and no-one can be arsed to run them anymore.)
• You've been in bad groups. (I avoid calling the player a bad because raiding is meant to be a team effort.)

Somehow in 2 years these people had never been in there once on any character???!!!!? of course someone gave a quick overview of the fight, we pulled and wiped at the first vortex and then i and a couple others just left.

Sorry mate, your elitist "head stuck up your own arse" approach to Tier 7 raids doesn't quite cut it here.

That being said, the vortexes should have been piss easy to handle. It doesn't do much damage and if the healers were awake, you wouldn't have wiped then. Otherwise, many of the wipes come from phase 2 or 3.

[Worgoblin]

So many whiny bitches in the 25 vs 10 man threads. I love the raid changes. It's logical and fair. But then all these ZOMG NERD RAGERS clearly just don't want more people having leet items like them, it will bruise their fragile ego to see a 10 man raider decked out, as if their self esteem is based on pixels. PATHETIC!

[bullseyed]

I love how the solution to "no one likes killing the same bosses twice a week" is to make it so they can only access half the content. What if the devs actually did their jobs and made the bosses between 10 and 25 man different, unique and exciting? You know, like they did back with the original dev team in Vanilla and TBC.

I personally like killing the bosses twice a week.

1.) Can practice on 10 heroic before trying 25 heroic.
2.) Can experiment with strat ideas (risky decisions) to improve gameplay on 10 man without wiping 25 people for hours.
3.) Any halfway decent guild will clear all heroic 25 mans (except LK) in 3 1/2 hours. This means less than one night of raiding per week. My guild has started running alt 25 mans because we're all so piss bored with this game.
3a.) That is what Blizzard wants though. They know most the players are shitty beyond measure. They want the good players to level alts and do alt runs, because they know 5/25 of those people will end up being PUGs you carry through the content, which means more $$$ for ActiBlizzard.



Another thing that comes out of this... they made the game easy because such a small percentage of the player base was experiencing content. So lets say 2 months in with 25s and 10s being mutually exclusive the breakdown is 90% of ppl in 25 mans and 10% of people in 10 mans. Then the 10% in 10 mans is too low of a portion of the population to "bother" developing content for, just like good players are currently seen as too small of a portion to bother with content for.

Would this mean that they would stop making 10 mans? If not, then they admit that their own logic is terribly flawed.

[Winfernal]

All the people raging against this, dont really enjoy 25 mans. You act like some spoiled brat by saying. "owell, 25 mans r dead". Why?

Its certanily better lootwise to go 25mans in Cata, no matter what you say, you will never outsmart blizzard, they know what they are doing. If they want to kill 25 mans, they remove it. Get 24 other people and you got yourself a 25 man group.

I also see some desperate people trying to do maths out of this, and 1/100 of those are doing it right. Get your facts/maths straight.