Why is it that Death Knights are so Awful at PvP? (Class Mechanics not player skill)

[skaarrj]

Obviously, Death Knights were probably the most overpowered class in any content of this games career and needed to be brought down. It was obvious Blizzard wanted to try some cool new things with Death Knights, but didn't quite think of the consequences of some of these cool ideas (lets face it, shadow of death was really really cool, and so was the death and decay glyph for tanking purposes). But now they're so far behind in about everything pvp relatated issues that...well I'm not entirely sure where to focus on or what issues i should bring up. I took a long break from my Death Knight in both PvE and PvP. I played my warrior instead (Whom is better than my DK because they're much better designed. I guess that's what happens when you introduce a new class to one that's been working already for 5 years. It's kinda appalling how much better warriors are than Death Knights in just about everything.

I returned to my Death Knight 2 days ago. Just because i put a ton of time and effort into him, and i enjoy him. But when it comes to doing pvp (which i love doing) i'm just so fustrated at Blizzard because they aren't doing anything in the near forseeable future (aka, THIS EXPANSION) to fix it. And it's really got me on edge. So i thought maybe I could talk about it.

I'm going to go over what I personally find distasteful about Death Knight pvp. These are going to be very short Roman Numerals of things i can't stand.

I). Defenses using Runes. Why runes? These are much too important for attempting to burst down people. The choice between using a cooldown intelligently and spamming cooldowns should be based on either the cooldown length or the situation in which it is used. It shouldn't be a resource battle. I feel like I'm struggling with my resources all the time. I don't want to struggle with my resource in a pvp environment in the first 4 seconds of a fight.

II). Lack of burst. I don't have the "uumpff" to finish someone off that I've been engaged with when they drop to around 30-25% health. But I can sure as hell kill someone if I have all my runes available to me if they're that low. DK's are pretty good at the whole killing-blow-stealing meta-game.

III). Lack of viable pvp specs. Just 1 spec. And I don't even like it all that much. I hate pets. That's why i was 2 handed frost.

IV). No Synergy! DK's have terrible Synergy with classes! We can peel really well but this isn't enough justification to bring a DK! Please edit DK's so that we are viable with certain classes depending on specs! The ones we are viable with will often do better in other comps!


I actually don't have much of a problem with dispells, because there's a clear vision on how to fix that given by Blizzard. So I'm cool with that. Necrotic Strike seems iffy. Will it replace scourge strike/Obliterate or Frost Strike/Death Coil? Will it provide synergy with Mortal Wounds users? Don't know jack about it yet really. Will the new Rune System go over better in pvp than the current one? I don't know yet. Will our strikes hit harder?

All i know is i'm frustrated at being ignored when my favorite class needs some help in pvp. And I felt like I should post about it.

[Doctadrew]

Why is it that Death Knights are so Awful at PvP?
You just explained it.

[evrazin]

two handed frost <33 Learn to play, is all i got to say. DKs are fine against caster. That's what they do and they perform very well at it. PVP isn't balanced around 1v1/2v2 encounter, you have tools to bring to your team, use them and quit whinning.

[Zarios]

I see plently of DKs that do fine, maybe it's just you(Not saying that you're bad, but that could the problem). What's your gear like, who are you facing? I see a lot of full wrathful Dks on my realm that do fine..

[Doctadrew]

two handed frost <33 Learn to play, is all i got to say. DKs are fine against caster. That's what they do and they perform very well at it. PVP isn't balanced around 1v1/2v2 encounter, you have tools to bring to your team, use them and quit whinning.

What?
Wait... what?

[skaarrj]

Well hopefully some serious posters get on rather than the ones who flame out of ignorance.

[akaTheDude]

This is a TROLL please move along

[rugglee]

this guy actually have made my day ty buddy QQ about dk jesus....

[skaarrj]

This is a TROLL please move along

I am not, and I will not let your fires of rage douse my calm and sound reasoning. Sorry, but I'm here to converse, not partake in a petty exchange of verbal abusive statements because of something that was not in my control at launch of this expansion.

[Babetina415]

If you ask me,dks are powerful in pvp,but when it comes to killing holy palies/resto droods,NO TY!

[Ym1r]

I honestly do fine with my DK in PVP. I'm unholy/frost atm, and the whole point of my spec is to pretty much trickle them to death, much like a warlock uses their dots on multiple targets. In 2v2/3v3 I spread my diseases as much as possible, so the healer is stressed to take down the diseases/heal over the diseases. My objective is to outlast them, however with the recent flare of cleaves in arena, I understand where you're coming from.

[rkoehorst]

two handed frost <33 Learn to play, is all i got to say. DKs are fine against caster. That's what they do and they perform very well at it. PVP isn't balanced around 1v1/2v2 encounter, you have tools to bring to your team, use them and quit whinning.

As the OP mentioned, there is not a lot of synergy between DKs and other classes in PvP. I mean, there's been TSG, but can't recall any other serious DK teams.

[Deleted]

DKs are not that bad in arenas really. Their best sinergy is with hunters, obviously they mostly peel, then interrupt, silence, DG heal on some healer plus help out with burst a bit and = kill. Also TSG with DK doing the same thing in the end to the healer. Check out some videos from Jigslol, I myself dont play a DK in PvP nor ever played with one in arena but from his videos you can see that DKs really arent useless.

[K4ge]

They are not.

[skaarrj]

I do not like our current comps, and I dislike being the peel-bot. Does not stop me from peeling when needed, but I don't like how we fit in with other classes right now. It's kinda bad.

I just feel like we shouldn't have to wait for cataclysm for these changes to be in effect that will give a much needed boost to our class. You know? I mean are you really currently happy with what comps you fit in and what synergy your class has with others? Explain your reasoning outside of "i like it or i don't like it".

I will happily continue to play my arms warrior in pvp if that is the path blizzard wants me to go down. They're stronger than DK's in arena's and BG's. I genuinely like my DK a lot. He's really interesting to play. But I can't really bring myself to do it if my warrior ....

- Does more burst damage
- Has more comps to fit in

I think the only way I could genuinely play my DK and feel happy about is just having more comps. It sucks rolling a class, and discovering that he can only be viable in a way you did not expect to be.

[gunner007]

TSG, Shadowcleave, PHD are all pretty viable arena specs. Glad capable? Very. I'm having a bit of fun on my alt DK in the dulldrums and at 2.1k with our shadowcleave (playing as unholy). If you're talking about 1v1, well the game really isn't based around that.

I can't understand your warrior comment though, warriors have to be babysat in arenas, otherwise they sit in sheeps, novas, and all kinds of CC when force to go defensive. If I'm sticking to a caster who's low, I can strangulate, pop ERW, and goto town. Gnaw the healer if its up, and use AMS to prevent CC. A warrior basically nerfs his dmg to go defensive and do nothing for dmg for the time he's turtled up.

[Flaks]

Being a peel bot and having consistent burst AND DEFENSES THAT DON"T KILL YOUR DAMAGE is better than being an MS bitch. That's literally all a warrior is now in 3's this far into the season. All of those comps you're seeing having been successful with warriors was earlier when people didn't have the gear to compete as well with warrior comps. Now, any half-brain-dead comp can beat most warrior teams.

Warrior comps are in the same boat as dks and we are FAR MORE RELIANT ON HEALERS. So yea... QQ MOAR BADDY :P

TL;DR WARRIORS SUCK QQQQQQQQQ (I'm trolling)

[nomad1206]

okay i think that you forgot some things .remember the times when dk were op? well than we had awesome damage and all the frustrating skillz for our enemies (silence,pet stun,slow), thats the reason why we were so OP. but blizzard had to take a decision one of the two things that made us op had to go and they chose the damage. i think its the best idea i mean cmon what would've remained to us if they took away all the fun stuff strangulate and the other spells ,the damage hah i prefer the way the dk are now. our job is not to kill the enemy in the arena our job is to make the kill easier for our teammates. get used to it! i've learned to love it .also depending on your style and skill you can end up being the best at damage . also gotta love corpse explosion.

[Citaxis]

I can't tell you how to make it easier to play a death knight in PvP, since I abandoned mine as soon as I finished leveling my paladin, but I can give you hints as to what you're expecting that is hindering you.

I). Defenses using Runes. Why runes? These are much too important for attempting to burst down people. The choice between using a cooldown intelligently and spamming cooldowns should be based on either the cooldown length or the situation in which it is used. It shouldn't be a resource battle. I feel like I'm struggling with my resources all the time. I don't want to struggle with my resource in a pvp environment in the first 4 seconds of a fight.

I've bolded what your first issue is. Paladins, death knights, and (Arms) warriors are designed to be limited by resources. It IS an resource battle. If you could spam every ability you had all the time without thought to resources, you'd be a steamroller in Arenas.

I'll make this a little bit more specific, to explain better (since I'm pretty bad at it). Take your Arms warrior. If you could constantly keep Heroic Strike queued, while spamming Execute, Revenge, and Overpower every single time they procced, while nuking the Slam button between their cooldowns, how long would even a plate-wearing class last against you? 5 seconds, not even counting Bladestorm, maybe 6? Rage is a resource you have to manage to keep you balanced. Now, imagine that you're taking a lot of damage and want to use a defensive cooldown. You don't have to dump your rage, but you have to strap on a 1H + shield to use Shield Wall, which limits your damage-dealing capabilities, in exchange for higher survival. See where this is going?

A death knight is limited by runes to pick and choose what they want to do, rather than simply spamming everything they possibly can on cooldown. Imagine popping IBF, UA (since I'm guessing you're still Frost), spamming CoI on every enemy within GCDs, proceeded by full disease spreading, and mashing the Obliterate key. Would anything at all have a chance against you? Now, from the sound of it, I'm guessing you actually looking to simply be competitive, rather than being an OP steamroller like 95% of the Ret paladins in the PvP forums want. Blizzard designed your abilities to fit in around a 10-second rune cooldown, which is unfortunately hard to wriggle burst into, but you have an infinite resource, limited only by cooldowns. Therefore, the only tradeoff Blizzard can put into the damage-vs.-survival decision is to make your survival CDs require runes. In exchange for the ability to never run out of resources, while retaining survival (*cough* rogues *cough*), and a VERY powerful anti-caster niche, Blizzard has decided to limit your bursting abilities. You have to design your play style around high-survival, low-burst (think Frost mage or Prot pally/warrior).

IV). No Synergy! DK's have terrible Synergy with classes! We can peel really well but this isn't enough justification to bring a DK! Please edit DK's so that we are viable with certain classes depending on specs! The ones we are viable with will often do better in other comps!

I have to agree partially with this, death knights don't really have very good synergy. They are the #1 Peelbot, but they also have an extremely good anti-caster niche. This has both a good and a bad side to it. Casters (save Frost mages) are focused entirely on nuking people down before they get close. A death knight can drop a caster's burst like a brick tied to a cannonball, but casters (except my poor warlock QQ) have enough escapes to reset their burst while a death knight's defenses are still on cooldown, and just go straight back to turning the world to flame. While the caster is escaping, as well, the death knight lacks the burst to definitively kill them first. Your best bet for synergy is to provide healer silencing/distraction with disease spreading and Mind Freeze, survival (with cooldowns) against burst-heavy classes like Arms warriors and rogues, or the aforementioned anti-caster role, in which your best bet is to be paired with another burst-heavy class to make up for your lack thereof. Preferably a hunter, who can drop a melee burster from range while they're pinned on you, nuke a healer while they're silenced, or simply snipe a caster who's busy trying to escape from you.

The short version of all this is that it really isn't an issue of "L2play" or anything like that (since that's such a helpful suggestion, too, right?). It's simply that death knights went from being OP classes that COULD nuke everything in front of them to being kind of this niche class, with an entirely different playstyle. I think the issue is that your focus should be more on utility pressure, rather than the main meat grinder for your Arena team. Your Arms warrior has a completely different role than your death knight, and I suspect that's what's got you confused, since death knights used to mow down people like frightened rabbits in front of a John Deere.

Of course, the best way to see what happens is just to try it out, so try being more of the Frost mage to your partner's Destro 'lock. If it doesn't work well for you, by all means, call me an idiot and go back to your Arms warrior. I'll still be in the 200-level bracket figuring out which end of my sword I'm supposed to stick in people, wishing you luck.

[Mufasaprime]

@citaxis

yeah.. i do feel that us dks have been well.. made into wet noodle status which is quite a shame, let alone the 19 respecs ive had to do, two full regems, countless regearing, and more rotation changes then id care to relay

i do pve tank/dps HM farming, id say well geared, pvp with a good amount of pvp experience and id say a decent arena ratting, now that being said, it is rough to pvp, it really is, 1v1 i feel i do well, and usually when i beat arena masters, gladiators and high ratted arena players im called a n00b, scrub, and to go play a real class (im also a pre bc warrior tank, rogue to wotlk and now the dk) i feel that once the 2v2, 3v3 brackets come in, i am very gimped to a large variety of comps, usually anything including holy pally, resto druids, i am excited for the necrotic strike (the dks own version of MS) in the expansion, and hopefully this will help give the competitive edge i need to be more arena utility over peelbot

one thing i am hopeing though, make my damage modifier (my dots, removable unless i fire a deathcoil every 10 seconds, god forbid if i dont have enough runic power and my dots go bye bye thanks to cleanse) kinda like the ret pallies, a stacking debuff on strike, and lets say 5 stacks to give the same effect of what the dot modifier would be