What am I doing wrong?

[Sheadeo]

so this is my problem.. I'm tanking ICC with a fellow warrior who is a pretty decently geared warrior. his GS is 5518 my gs is 5688 (ya I know boo hiss for GS, but used properly it can be a descent tool. also in this context I'm using it to show that we both are fairly evenly matched gear wise) and for some odd reason when I pull something and smack it, it doesn't stick to me instead it flips to him for a second then flips back. or flips to another person completely. like our famous fury warrior who tends to die alot (he is kinda like our good luck charm, its not an aw some raid with out at least one death from him.) and for the life of me, I cant figure out why this is happening.
the way I pull is I FF/maul (macro ed together) once it gets to me I mangle apply a few lacerates and slap maul again then mangle/ff/lacerate rotation with a roar or 2 or more mixed in. sometimes I just pull with growl then ff/maul/rotation. thats signal target rotation. for aoe I spam swipe/maul macro with a roar thrown in as well.(he ussualy doesnt pull off me when I aoe). usual bear stuff. so I'm not quit sure its my opening rotation. so the other thing I'm looking at is spec. I went for as much threat as I could and still be well protected. I'm maxed hit and expertise isn't too shabbie either (maxed for the dodge and nearly maxed for the parry)
now I know that some of my gear is a little unconventional (like my neck piece and my ashen verdict ring my cloak and the gems in my boots) but some of it is severing double duty for kitteh (the ring and boots). And as for the other stuff if I'm not using it then I'm screwed for hit and expertise. and yes I realize that the shoulder enchant is a pvp one but I have so much agi that I decided that I would benefit more from the stam then the dodge. but I digress. the main point to my mad half asleep rambling (Ive been up for more the 24hrs) is that I cant figure out how my fellow tank buddy is pulling off me, unless he is taunting off me.. and I really don't think that is the problem. any ideas guys?
I would provide an armory link but the website gods say I have to post a few times to do so. oh well Im the only sheadeo in game so it wont be hard to find me. Sheadeo of Validus Knights on Feathermoon.
any ideas or help would be apreciated alot. and sorry for the rambling.. I do that when Ive been up for more then a day.

[Archimand]

havnt played feral bear alot ... just for leveling but i was under the impression u wanna use swipe on single target as well

[Euq]

The rotation I use on single target is:
FF - Mangle - Roar - Laceratex2 - FF - Mangle - Laceratex3.
After this you use Mangle and FF on every CD where Mangle > FF.
You refresh both lacerate and roar when it's around 3 secs left.
And when you got nothing else to use, you swipe.

(Keep Maul macroed into your attacks)

[Sheadeo]

The thing is They are pulling off me as soon as the mob Gets to me. I get to FF with maul qued up (cause its macro ed into FF) then as soon as the boss gets to me I slam my mangle button. then after that (when I should have enough agro to keep it on me) the mob will flip to the other tank. I of course lacerate x2 throw in a roar, mangle again and the mob flips back to me. its like a split second thing. its like pull, smack, flip to other tank, then flips back to me. though some times it flips to an ambitious fury warrior and smacks him dead. sorry if I wasnt clearer earlier. kinda in a brain fog atm.

[Sumanis]

Could be a number of different reasons for this, The dps pulling off you is because there stupid and watch meters and dont let you get a hit in first.. The tank may be pulling off you because 1 he taunted 2 his initial hit was a crit or just causes more agro then you. I macro maul to everything FF,lac,mang. If you hit the mob first with mangle and some swipes before worrying about lacerate (because maul is macro'd to everything and isn't something you need to worry about) you'll have less chance of loosing initial threat. Looking at your armory you need to change some enchants being a tank, You dont need the hit to gloves get agil, change your boots to stam. get rid of the expertise enchant and gem on wrists and get straight stam, and get +22 agil to back.. if your tanking you dont need expertise and should go for all stam on gems unless meta socket needs otherwise. Also if your tanking change your ashen verdict ring your loosing alot of HP and dodge from getting the dps one.

[Sheadeo]

fixed sig url.. sorry new to this whole linking stuf thing

[Sumanis]

fixed sig url.. sorry new to this whole linking stuf thing

Updated earlier post per new armory

I also see your dual speced for what looks like tanking and cat, you either need 2 sets of gear or alot of gold to regem everytime because either your tanking will suffer or your dps.

[Sheadeo]

Hmm. well its my bad for assuming that all druids works up 3 1/2 sets of gear ( 1/2 cause my resto gear shares with my chicken gear a bit). yes I have a completely different set for kitteh. the only pieces that get shared between kitteh and bear are the ashen verdict ring and the boots.yes I know I would get better stats if I switched the ring to the tanking one but I'm unwilling to spend 120g for every raid I have since I don't have a ring to replace the dps version of the ring. while on the other hand I do technically have a tanking replacement for the ashen verdict ring. its just item lvl 200 and sucks balls. and when I looked at the AV ring I saw that it actually had higher stam then my crappy ilvl 200 ring.so I said what the heck and went with it.So the shared items get agi gems in them. which has the added advantage of boosting my dodge and crit.
from all the research I have done yes experitse is important as it prevents bosses from dodging your attacks once you have 26 expertise,which adds to your threat. theory being less dodging more hitting more threat. and curtails hasted parries when you hit around the 40s.
Having peaked at my gear again Ill have to see if I cant drop that glove enchant. as for the boot enchant it would have to be to agi because that is one of 3 items that are shared between kitteh and bear.(I know I said only 2 but I forgot about the bracers thats shared too)
the cloak I actually just got today and it was gemmed and enchanted mid raid by my awesome guild mates. so ya thats defiantly going to change to 22 agi as soon as I can afford it.
the weird thing is before I wasn't enchanted for hit on the gloves and boots I was enchanted for agi on both and still had issues with mobs flipping back and forth when I first pull and get the mobs to me. of course that was because I had a bit different gear. I recently upgraded my head piece to t10 and lost allot of hit and expertise with it. (once again I was having the same problem I'm having now) so I flipped to my shaft of glacial ice for the hit and did the expertise enchant on my bracers. still same problem happening. I should mention that before I switched to the glacial ice I was using Lightborn spire. since I was able to get the cloak and the neck piece and with me switching to the AV ring (its so annoying typing the whole name out) I didn't have to worry about hit or expertise,I flipped back to the LBS.
as for my kitteh gear, its even better then my bear gear. so no worries there. XD
Ill add a link to my sig for wowheroes so you can see how my bear and kitteh sets work together

[Duilliath]

Shieldblocked Shield Slam is a lot of threat up front. Followed by a Concussion Blow, it's not that unlikely he'll pull off you, especially not with a few crits.

What's more interesting though, why aren't you getting the Tricks of the Trade of Misdirects?

--

Sidenote, there's nothing wrong with the PvP enchant for the shoulders.

[Deleted]

you do know some mobs just target another player randomly because they are standing too much on front of the sily mob?
like the icc deathbound wards and lord marrowgar aswell i believe. anyway if you have enough rage at the start and dont spam miss a mob you should be abl to keep aggro. just pull with ff, bind everything on maull, mangle, lacerate up and swipe with mangle on cd. and feari fire on cd.

[Sheadeo]

weelll... unless actualy talked out before the pull, my fellow tank and I tend to duel for the agro till one of us gets on them. its kinda fun and challenging.. unless its on a boss then we make sure to point out who goes first. so realy the hunters in our group dont realy use MD all that often unless asked for it. realy though I find these problems happening mostly when we are on the dogs. wich we tend to not treat as realy bosses cause we mow them down so quickly. Ill remeady this next time and ask fellow tanky buddy who goes first for the dogs.
and as for the trixting.. sadly we dont run with a rogue very often. we tend to have one or 2 spots that we pull in who ever wants to go on that week if our regular dosnt show up.
group make up runs like this:
2 hutners
2 shaman (one of them is resto/elemental the other is ememental/enhance)
2 druids (me and a tree)
1 preist (disc/shadow)
2 warriors (one fury one prot)
and a floater spot whom we tend to pull in either a lock or a rogue or something

[axxey]

Warriors have better snap agro than druids.

That being said, with your raid make up you're shooting yourselves in the foot.

2 hunters and possible rogue and you're fighting for first agro?

[Aminozuur]

if your hunters/rogues dont md/tricks just let your dps die there fault for overaggro they wont do it if they keep dieing on a pull and tell your hunters/rogues to let them use the first tricks/md on you and when you taunt to use it again shouldn't be that hard for a hunter/rogue with a focus target macro

[Sumanis]

Well as far as hit goes your over hit cap which is 263 and as far as expertise goes for feral druid it has nothing to do with dodging as a tank thast for cat, Bear form it prevents parry and with Primal Precision (2/2), tanking Bears need 443 effective Expertise Rating to eliminate enemy Parry, You say you and other tank fight for agro but wonder why boss goes back and forth well um you are fighting for agro.. You should have your MT choosen for the raid and there should be no fighting for agro hunters should be MDing to MT and it would prevent alot of the problems for you and for dps taking boss off you and dieing in the process.

[exochaft]

Fighting for aggro and not dedicating a role at the start is generally bad.

In terms of MD/TotT, if there's no set tank decided, if both tanks receive threat redirection, of course the boss is going to jump between tanks. Beyond that, it's a stress on the healer because they don't know who is going to be taking the damage.

If DPS are stealing aggro, the hunters are probably not MDing either tank (which might be because they don't know who the MT for the fight is going to be?). Beyond that, your stats/spec don't show any glaring threat generation issues. In terms of warrior vs druid, warriors do have much better snap threat than druids. If the DPS are dying within the first couple seconds of the pull, have them put aside their "big numbers" ego (smart DPSers know their tanks and know when to throttle/not die) and let the tanks get some initial threat for a couple seconds.

If you and the warrior tank are still fighting for aggro and the boss is switching non-stop every few seconds... depending on the fight, it's really bad in terms of boss mechanics. There's nothing wrong with stopping your attacks so the warrior tank can get some threat lead over you and vice versa. I've had to work with some tanks before on this, but some fail to realize that when their partner tank taunts, it's generally not a good idea to throw all your high-TPS burst immediately after (especially if the taunting tank gets an unfortunate string of parries).

Long story short, everyone should be worried about threat and work together to stabilize it. Otherwise, you'll end up tearing each others heads off with endless blame games and kill your instance progress.

[Whydrood]

...the way I pull is I FF/maul (macro ed together) once it gets to me I mangle apply a few ....

...The thing is They are pulling off me as soon as the mob Gets to me. ...

I don't mean to be a jerk, but it seems to me that your pattern here is to make the target come to you instead of you charging in and showing the mob who is boss. If you are range pulling with FFF/Maul, stop it. Feral Charge, then FFF/Maul and start your rotation.

[bavarcarus]

Too much hit, especially if you generally have a draenai in your raid. I think it's about 230 if you do. The amount of expertise you have is nice for threat, but that bracer enchant simply isn't worth it compared to the stm enchant you could be using. Also there's no such thing as too much dodge, to put it simply there is such a thing as not enough or too much stm. You'd be better off with the dodge defense shoulder enchant IMO.

Replace the boot enchant with tuskarr's vitality and the glove enchant with agi.

Your pull should be FF - mangle - lacerate/maul - lacerate/maul - mangle...ect...

Replace lacerate with swipe when you have a 5 stack. Learn to do this while strafing back to the group if you need to pull mobs back. You might check to see if the warrior has vigilance on you too.

---------- Post added 2010-06-25 at 02:50 PM ----------

also, let the warrior do his demo shout

[Sheadeo]

now that I have had more sleep lets see if I can make things clearer.
no we do not in general fight for agro on bosses. mainly trash and mainly only on the second wing, and its noticed mostly when we hit the dogs. most of the time when we hit the boss we set up who is first and let the group know.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but it seems to me that your pattern here is to make the target come to you instead of you charging in and showing the mob who is boss. If you are range pulling with FFF/Maul, stop it. Feral Charge, then FFF/Maul and start your rotation.

as much as I like charging in and showing the mobs who is boss, its better polocie to pulls safely back to you and control were the mob placement is. though there are a few parts were I can charge in and /rawr all over thier faces.

now for the macro everything to god and back bit. ya thats a good idea in general. and ya I could do this instead of having it only macro ed to a select few of my abiliteis. but I have it glyphed and Im the type of person that I forget to switch out my abilities when we are going up against bosses such as sarafang and his blood beasts. and then forget to switch back. so I prefure to keep it macro ed to a few set abilities so I have control over when it goes off. also when im goofing around in 5m heroics and I have everything macro ed to maul I find that I tend to be rage starved frequently becuase Im not getting hit enough to generate agro. not ussualy a problem but annoying none the less.

as we are prociding further into Icc Ive been thinking about unglyphing it and going for something like super growl or the new mangle glyph. my theory for the mangle glyph is that boosted damage = more agro = better snap when the boss hits me. no I dont have math to support my theory because I suck at math.

as far as expertise goes for feral druid it has nothing to do with dodging as a tank thast for cat, Bear form it prevents parry and with Primal Precision (2/2), tanking Bears need 443 effective Expertise Rating to eliminate enemy Parry

tecnicaly you are right at this one and yes I do relise that. but wouldnt the theory hold up that it would work for bear too? if the mob is dodging my hits Im not hiting it as much and therfore not building as much agro as I potencialy could. as for the parry part, my gear sits now Im almost at the expertise cap for that.
on a side note since I notice some one mention my bracers, they are serving a double duty for cat and bear. and the way they are set up right now they help with maintaning the expertise cap for me in kitteh and adding to the expertise cap in bear. so they are fine the way they are.

In terms of warrior vs druid, warriors do have much better snap threat than druids

hmmm. that might actualy be the problem right there. since its only in the initail stages that this agro fliping is happening. but once we have establish agro its not a problem for one of us to hold it. once again noteing that the problems tend to arise mainly once we hit the dogs. for the other trash and bosses leading up to them there ussualy isnt a problem.

with your raid make up you're shooting yourselves in the foot.

yes our raid make up is a bit unconventinal. but it works. yes we sometimes have to be a bit creative with how we do things. but isnt that a sign of a good raid group, the ability to go in and pull of what is needed to be pulled off despite what your group make up is?

[axxey]

hmmm. that might actualy be the problem right there. since its only in the initail stages that this agro fliping is happening. but once we have establish agro its not a problem for one of us to hold it. once again noteing that the problems tend to arise mainly once we hit the dogs. for the other trash and bosses leading up to them there ussualy isnt a problem.


yes our raid make up is a bit unconventinal. but it works. yes we sometimes have to be a bit creative with how we do things. but isnt that a sign of a good raid group, the ability to go in and pull of what is needed to be pulled off despite what your group make up is?

Selective reading?

You're screwing it all to high heaven.
There's no concievable reason to have agro problems in any way at any time at all with 2 hunters in a 10 man raid.

1 point infected wounds is not an option.
expertise to bracers is terrible for everyone.

[bavarcarus]

^^

you don't need to cap expertise in cat.