How difficult is it for a fury warrior to sunder?

[Griefel]

Ideally, you should always Min/Max DPS.

I do not see how you are min/maxing DPS w/o a prot warrior in raid.
I mean if you are that hardcore to care about the few thousand DPS at the start of a fight, what happened with your logic when you've made a raid w/o a prot warrior in it?

EDIT: And at the moment that "DPS loss" over the raid is probably comparable to a DPS proccing his trinkets late, or the latency of 3-4 ppl making them a tad slower or 1-2 casters moving 1-2 yards further from a "fire". If you wanted to really see the difference on a dps meter it's so small you couldn't, not in ICC anyways with a 25% buff and neither in RS. You guys got a very good theoretical point however it's not really significant practically.

[Purelybetter]

I do not see how you are min/maxing DPS w/o a prot warrior in raid.
I mean if you are that hardcore to care about the few thousand DPS at the start of a fight, what happened with your logic when you've made a raid w/o a prot warrior in it?

Paragon raids with a prot pally and feral druid. They have 1 fury warrior in their raid roster who goes prot for Professor Putricide. Don't talk about min/max when you have shit facts.

Ive noticed that sundering as a Fury warrior is a few hundred DPS loss due to the clipped CDs, Missed Slams, etc. but that obviously is outweighed by the Raid's DPS increase. Another thing is to those non-informed or troll out there talking about "fury threat" any Fury warrior in good gear (ArP Hardcapped) will Aggro to a stupid level w/ or w/o any threat buffs, so the sundering threat problem is legitimate (my raid's pallies have Salv macros w/o me sundering, since fury's threat is as high as a non-hybrid class w/o a threat drop of its own)
as it was said b4... Prot > Fury > Rogue > Arms (if it gets to this point, just let it go, Arms warriors get enough crap as it is)

Just for the sake of friendly debate, I'd say if you are Arms, and this thread is about min/max in a raid, I'd put Arms right under prot. Serious raiding Arms warriors are only arms because of the buffs they add, AKA you're a buff bot. It's like a demo lock spec'ing into Imp Shadowbolt for the crit. My guild's demo lock does it because although there are better DPS talents, he views himself as a buff bot so he'll sacrifice his DPS for someone who is there for straight DPS. I hope this made sense.

[Griefel]

Paragon raids with a prot pally and feral druid. They have 1 fury warrior in their raid roster who goes prot for Professor Putricide. Don't talk about min/max when you have shit facts.

So ? Ensidia got like 90% of world firsts with their casters using Tuskkar's vitality enchant and HP flasks, instead of the DPS alternatives, long before people realized they were better for progression. And what about Kungen, is he always replace? XD

[Nakkí]

You're doing it wrong. Unless you're doing like 75% of your raid's DPS, you're losing DPS.

The damage lost by throwing your sunders up when its convenient is much higher than the damage gained from you using your BT and WW.

I wouldn't be so hasty to call out "wrong." One has to take the nature of the fight/raid into account.

I'm assuming that all five stacks would be up within 3 WW/BT rotations. The method I described is not the one for progression fights, where absolute dps minmaxing is a must. It is, rather, a comfort-of-use method to be employed when content is safely on farm, and DPS is in any case well over the fight's requirements.

tl;dr: Slightly slower stacking of sunders (than five GCD's in a row) is IMO valid, unless one raids in a very tight-ass minmaxing environment. Not for max DPS, but for a smoother flow of play.

[saberon]

I wouldn't be so hasty to call out "wrong." One has to take the nature of the fight/raid into account.

I'm assuming that all five stacks would be up within 3 WW/BT rotations. The method I described is not the one for progression fights, where absolute dps minmaxing is a must. It is, rather, a comfort-of-use method to be employed when content is safely on farm, and DPS is in any case well over the fight's requirements.

tl;dr: Slightly slower stacking of sunders (than five GCD's in a row) is IMO valid, unless one raids in a very tight-ass minmaxing environment. Not for max DPS, but for a smoother flow of play.

smoother flow of play? really? You just press the same button 5 times then go back to your original rotation. Seems fairly straightforward and "smooth".

Using phrases like "smoother flow of play" to rationalise inefficient and selfishness behaviour is ridiculous.

[Daffyduck]

so why bring a rogue to a pug when you can bring a fury warrior more raid utility and can do more then rogues. dont tell me bring the player not the class to a pug cause that arguement will not fly

lol warriors have lots of utility don't they...

[Griefel]

Imho guys let's assume we're just beating on the dead horse here until someone comes with real numbers on whether or not sundering at the start or within rotation is better, till then I think the only thing we can agree upon is that sundering whenever is still one of the important reasons we prot, fury or arms warriors are in a raid.

[saberon]

Imho guys let's assume we're just beating on the dead horse here until someone comes with real numbers on whether or not sundering at the start or within rotation is better, till then I think the only thing we can agree upon is that sundering whenever is still one of the important reasons we prot, fury or arms warriors are in a raid.

...

---------- Post added 2010-07-06 at 01:59 PM ----------

If you are seriously suggesting that throwing up all 5 at the start is worse than throwing up sunders only during your free GCD, you need to get the fuck out of life. Like the faster you kill yourself the better.

If we use the normal rotation, you're looking at something along the lines of BT -> WW -> free -> BT -> Free -> Free -> repeat. Now assuming you're a selfish prick(which you are for this method), you won't push back your second BT for sunder, and you won't put a sunder up if you have slam. So we're looking at an average of 1 per rotation, but for funsies we'll go with 1 sunder -> 2 -> 1 ->2

Now a normal rotation takes 8 seconds roughly. We know this because we use BT Twice. Now at 8 seconds, we have 1 sunder. At 16 seconds we have 3 sunders. At 24 seconds we have 4 sunders. At about 30 seconds we will have our 5th sunder up. It takes 30 seconds to get DPS at max strength. If you popped heroism at the start, grats you just lost a shit ton of DPS, however you lost either way.

Now method 2, the good raider method. You throw up 5 sunders ASAP. Each GCD is a little over 1.5 seconds when you count in latency. Therefore 5 sunders are going to take about 6 seconds, and around 8 seconds to start your rotation. However, you "lost" 1 cycle or about 30k damage from holding off. However, your raid has 24 more seconds of 20% less armor on a target, which last I checked is an increase of around 4.5% for most. Assuming you have about 10 melee, not too uncommon, that means to make up for 30k damage you lost, your raid would need to be doing that 30k damage x about 20(its a 5% increase roughly) which gives us the damage your raid would need to do in 24 seconds. Divide by 24, then divide by 10 for melee. This gives you the DPS each person needs. 2500.

This is math while tired/half drunk but I bet its still better than what you can do.

Read it.

The figures are accurate to within ~100 dps per person.

[Alianthos]

ˆ

The above quoted math is quite flawed. First of all, 10 melee is a bit overkill, not seeing that in ICC a lot.

What I do is, actually, BT - WW - Sunder - BT - Sunder - Sunder - BT - WW - Sunder - BT - Sunder
Because what you can do is Sunder up to 5 stacks WITHOUT delaying BT / WW cycle too much and not wasting your trinkets procs. So you dont use Slam procs and you delay the 2nd BT only.

So, there. 5 sunders up in 15 sec instead of 6, without fucking up your cycle / rage generation / whatever. Straight 5 sunders works too, yeah. But in my scenario, i dare you to proove me that it is SO obvious. When you have 5 sunders up, i've got 2, it's only gonna take me 9 sec to put the last three ones. In the meanwhile i'm already at 80% of my regular DPS (maybe even 100% if there isnt any Slam proc).

So what about my math now =)

[saberon]

ˆ

The above quoted math is quite flawed. First of all, 10 melee is a bit overkill, not seeing that in ICC a lot.

*Shrug* Don't forget that it includes hunters, too. Regardless, half that so you have 5 physical dps. If they pull 5k dps each it's still better to sunder first. And if they don't, they should be taken out the back and shot.

ˆ

What I do is, actually, BT - WW - Sunder - BT - Sunder - Sunder - BT - WW - Sunder - BT - Sunder
Because what you can do is Sunder up to 5 stacks WITHOUT delaying BT / WW cycle too much and not wasting your trinkets procs. So you dont use Slam procs and you delay the 2nd BT only.

So, there. 5 sunders up in 15 sec instead of 6, without fucking up your cycle / rage generation / whatever. Straight 5 sunders works too, yeah. But in my scenario, i dare you to proove me that it is SO obvious. When you have 5 sunders up, i've got 2, it's only gonna take me 9 sec to put the last three ones. In the meanwhile i'm already at 80% of my regular DPS (maybe even 100% if there isnt any Slam proc).

So what about my math now =)

As for that, i cbf doing maths since im fairly tired.
But i'm gonna go out on a limb and say, if you get em up in 15 seconds, the physical RDPS required would be ~double, which is about 50k rdps. Which I think most raids could manage.
So it's still probable that straight up sunders is superior, but the difference probably isn't too great.

[Griefel]

Random napkin math of someone assuming all raids in the world have exactly 10 melee, and also assuming all are using a spec that gives them exactly 4.5% more damage from sunders it's not I would have in mind. If that math satisfies you then it's ok, no one is judging, but it's not something we can call science in my opinion.

[saberon]

Random napkin math of someone assuming all raids in the world have exactly 10 melee, and also assuming all are using a spec that gives them exactly 4.5% more damage from sunders it's not I would have in mind. Please let it die until you really have something palpable.

The math isn't based on having exactly 10 melee. It's based on total physical RDPS (Which was 25k).

And whilst the sunder damage increase may not be precisely 4.5% per person, on average across the entire raid it is about that.

Moreover, the damage increase could be as little as 2% and it would STILL be better to sunder straight up, assuming your raid was capable of ~50k RDPS. Which should be achievable by even an average guild.


I'd consider that pretty darn "palpable".

[Orukmeta]

I get irritated when i see my stack of sunders disappear because of a rogue. If a fury warrior is in the group, let him deal with it. Although chances are, you'll get the asshat who wont do it for the good of the raid, and this same person wont help with encounter mechanics like Marrowgar's Bonespikes just so he can say he pwnt the raid on dps.

[Eudeyrn]

Sundering as fury is not a big deal at all. I do it out fo habit since it fills a spot for white damamge swings. As far as missing and insta-slam, I admit I use an addon called Spell Flash with the warrior mod loaded and one call Slam Alert. the proc itself has 5 seconds and with 4pc T10, is easier to get teh double slams so ther is no reason to miss becasue you are sundering, It even flashes the Sunder icon when less than 10 seconds, I rarely see that though. So you just have a lazy warrior is all.
Arms on the other hand is horrid at keeping Sunder up. You could Macro it in with a HS but then the rage cost may leave you starved too many times.

[Battousai]

If you are seriously suggesting that throwing up all 5 at the start is worse than throwing up sunders only during your free GCD, you need to get the fuck out of life. Like the faster you kill yourself the better.

If we use the normal rotation, you're looking at something along the lines of BT -> WW -> free -> BT -> Free -> Free -> repeat. Now assuming you're a selfish prick(which you are for this method), you won't push back your second BT for sunder, and you won't put a sunder up if you have slam. So we're looking at an average of 1 per rotation, but for funsies we'll go with 1 sunder -> 2 -> 1 ->2

Now a normal rotation takes 8 seconds roughly. We know this because we use BT Twice. Now at 8 seconds, we have 1 sunder. At 16 seconds we have 3 sunders. At 24 seconds we have 4 sunders. At about 30 seconds we will have our 5th sunder up. It takes 30 seconds to get DPS at max strength. If you popped heroism at the start, grats you just lost a shit ton of DPS, however you lost either way.

Now method 2, the good raider method. You throw up 5 sunders ASAP. Each GCD is a little over 1.5 seconds when you count in latency. Therefore 5 sunders are going to take about 6 seconds, and around 8 seconds to start your rotation. However, you "lost" 1 cycle or about 30k damage from holding off. However, your raid has 24 more seconds of 20% less armor on a target, which last I checked is an increase of around 4.5% for most. Assuming you have about 10 melee, not too uncommon, that means to make up for 30k damage you lost, your raid would need to be doing that 30k damage x about 20(its a 5% increase roughly) which gives us the damage your raid would need to do in 24 seconds. Divide by 24, then divide by 10 for melee. This gives you the DPS each person needs. 2500.

This is math while tired/half drunk but I bet its still better than what you can do.

This is about the most rushed pos theorycrafting you could possibly come up with.

Use dps instead of rotation. 30k is a grossly underwhelming estimate for the 7.5 seconds of time the fury warrior wastes. And yes you are wasting it, sunders can be woven into your rotation without a loss in dps. I'd say a better estimate of the damage lost form the fury warrior not attacking basically for 8 seconds is roughly in the neighborhood of 80,000-100,000, especially when you consider that inital round of trinket procs. Use your dps minus the White damage % * total damage done to get a better number.

Now to the second and I can't believe anyone hasn't caught this and ripped you apart for it yet. I'll let you even take your estimate of 30 seconds till the 5th sunder goes up. Your raid isn't missing out on 24 seconds of -20% armor reduction. You raid is missing out on -20% armor reduction for at most...~6 seconds (unless you are getting some seriously lucky slam procs). After that there will be 1 sunder up...and your raid is now missing out on 16% armor reduction for another ~6 seconds, then 12%...and 8% and finally 4% for the last few seconds. In other words just becuase sunders aren't going up in the first 8 seconds doesn't mean the raid ins't getting an increasing benefit for the duration of the other 24 sec...you don't magically START seeing an increase when the 5th stack goes up.

So...your magical number of 4.5% per phy damage dealer for 24 seconds is SEVERELY overestimated. Couple that with your SEVERE underestimate of a fury warriors damage during the inital 8 seconds of dps time...and your numbers are seriously skewed to the point of ubsurdity.

I'm really not going to do the math myself, cause I don't care that much...mostly because of the many underlying variables I'd be forced to consider. The number of people that benefit from the buff in my raid (raid comp for THAT day), their gear (trinket procs), which fight it is (heroism at the start...split dps). All of these variables are going to change from one person to the next...so calling out absolutes is pointless (absolutes in general are really risky bud...there's not many of them in this world...even when it comes to math).

So, I'll tell you what I do...I don't sunder it up right away. I simply replace my regular slam procs (the non 2x GCD bonus ones) with sunders at the beginning of the fight..except when I get a Taunka proc, in which I normally pop DW and sunder when it doesn't hurt my rotation.

[Kysimir]

*Shrug* Don't forget that it includes hunters, too. Regardless, half that so you have 5 physical dps. If they pull 5k dps each it's still better to sunder first. And if they don't, they should be taken out the back and shot.

Except only Feral and Fury get 100% return from Sunders. Rets, Rogues, Hunters, DK's all have anywhere from 30 - 60% Magical damage.

[Bloodkrayze]

So pretty much butt-hurt rogues in here QQing..

[Purelybetter]

ˆ

The above quoted math is quite flawed. First of all, 10 melee is a bit overkill, not seeing that in ICC a lot.

What I do is, actually, BT - WW - Sunder - BT - Sunder - Sunder - BT - WW - Sunder - BT - Sunder
Because what you can do is Sunder up to 5 stacks WITHOUT delaying BT / WW cycle too much and not wasting your trinkets procs. So you dont use Slam procs and you delay the 2nd BT only.

So, there. 5 sunders up in 15 sec instead of 6, without fucking up your cycle / rage generation / whatever. Straight 5 sunders works too, yeah. But in my scenario, i dare you to proove me that it is SO obvious. When you have 5 sunders up, i've got 2, it's only gonna take me 9 sec to put the last three ones. In the meanwhile i'm already at 80% of my regular DPS (maybe even 100% if there isnt any Slam proc).

So what about my math now =)

This time, I'm not drunk. So I am going to take these numbers and give you the estimated DPS over a 5 minute fight required for 1 fury warrior. This will give you the required physical DPS of the raid to warrant sunder 5x immediately.

First off, as you said it will take you 16.5 seconds to start your rotation, all 5 are up at 15 seconds. Using a straight forward sunder you have them all up in 6 seconds, starting your rotation in 7.5. We'll use when you start your rotation.

Now losing 80-100k damage is complete horseshit. You should still be doing Heroic Strike and normal melees. If not, that's your own damn fault for sucking. In 7.5 seconds you would normally lose a BT, WW, BT, and a slam. Of course this varies, but this seems like a good average. Now I'm going to assume the BT Crits and the Slam crits. Using my parses from last night, that's 48k. A lot more than I assumed at first, but enh I guess Shadowmourne shot them up and Im using Sunder for this value.

Now, 48k is what I lost.(Adding these parenthesis in to signify where I took a break) However, this rotation also loses all slams. So if we assume 3 slams during 2 rotations, not too uncommon, I'll be nice and use all non-crits. That's about 18k. We're back down to 30k damage difference. However, in the second rotation I get a slam that you don't. We're down to 24k. 24k over 9 seconds with 5% increase to all physical damage is around 53k RPDPS(Raid Physical DPS). Now Im going to say you have: yourself as a fury, a combat rogue, a feral druid, a frost DK, a ret, and a MM Hunter. All of these are far from unheard of. Yourself and the Feral are pure physical. So we'll say they're around 12k DPS. That brings us down to 29k over 4 people for pure physical. The ret is probably only 5k physical, but the rogue and hunter are closer to roughly 9k physical. This means the Frost DK would have to do 6k Physical. This is before tanks.

Now you can debate the values, this is THEORYcrafting after all, but don't just dismiss the values without a suggestion. If you can't be bothered to do the math, then you shouldn't be bothered to debate it. The closer to real values, the more likely we are prove one way or the other.

[Battousai]

This time, I'm not drunk. So I am going to take these numbers and give you the estimated DPS over a 5 minute fight required for 1 fury warrior. This will give you the required physical DPS of the raid to warrant sunder 5x immediately.

First off, as you said it will take you 16.5 seconds to start your rotation, all 5 are up at 15 seconds. Using a straight forward sunder you have them all up in 6 seconds, starting your rotation in 7.5. We'll use when you start your rotation.

Now losing 80-100k damage is complete horseshit. You should still be doing Heroic Strike and normal melees. If not, that's your own damn fault for sucking. In 7.5 seconds you would normally lose a BT, WW, BT, and a slam. Of course this varies, but this seems like a good average. Now I'm going to assume the BT Crits and the Slam crits. Using my parses from last night, that's 48k. A lot more than I assumed at first, but enh I guess Shadowmourne shot them up and Im using Sunder for this value.

Now, 48k is what I lost.(Adding these parenthesis in to signify where I took a break) However, this rotation also loses all slams. So if we assume 3 slams during 2 rotations, not too uncommon, I'll be nice and use all non-crits. That's about 18k. We're back down to 30k damage difference. However, in the second rotation I get a slam that you don't. We're down to 24k. 24k over 9 seconds with 5% increase to all physical damage is around 53k RPDPS(Raid Physical DPS). Now Im going to say you have: yourself as a fury, a combat rogue, a feral druid, a frost DK, a ret, and a MM Hunter.

I have no idea what you're trying to say with this. However, if you're trying to debate two BTs, a WW, and a Slam I can tell you that my BTs hit for 7-8k, WWs hit for 10k, and slams hit for 6-7k. At a 50% crit rate half of these will crit, and so you are talking 30k minimum with no crits and 45k with a theoretical 50% crit. These numbers get much higher depending on what proc I gt from DBW.

Now about class representation you somewhat fixed your percent of dps increased by the 20% reduced armor...albeit you pulled imaginary numbers out of thin air. This has never been the hard part about the comparision. Now go ahead and theorycraft the difference in raid dps in the first 6 secs with no sunder, then 1 sunder for the next 6 sec, ...etc instead of trying to claim the raid isn't getting any benefit for a full 24 seconds.

However... there's a much easier way to do this. Record your raids damage done for every boss for the first 24 seconds with 5 stacks immidiately, and the next week where you weave sunders in with the last one going in at 24 seconds.

Compare the damage done and come back and tell us your results.

[Ragewar]

I have no idea what you're trying to say with this. However, if you're trying to debate two BTs, a WW, and a Slam I can tell you that my BTs hit for 7-8k, WWs hit for 10k, and slams hit for 6-7k. At a 50% crit rate half of these will crit, and so you are talking 30k minimum with no crits and 45k with a theoretical 50% crit.

Now about class representation you somewhat fixed your percent of dps increased by the 20% reduced armor...albeit you pulled imaginary numbers out of thin air. This has never been the hard part about the comparision. Now go ahead and theorycraft the difference in raid dps in the first 6 secs with no sunder, then 1 sunder for the next 6 sec, ...etc instead of trying to claim the raid isn't getting any benefit for a full 24 seconds.

However... there's a much easier way to do this. Record your raids damage done for every boss for the first 24 seconds with 5 stacks immidiately, and the next week where you weave sunders in with the last one going in at 24 seconds.

Compare the damage done and come back and tell us your results.

Calculating 2 different weeks/boss doesn't work well. Best way to do this would be to go with multiple failed attempts at Heroic Deathbringer Saurfang from the same night while doing sunder armor both ways and then compare.

First 40 seconds or so (or is it 30?) at the start will always be the same. So you can easily compare raid dps at the start with only RNG being the one changing things. Anyway, I am pretty sure both ways are pretty much equal in terms of total raid dps while one is more towards personal dps. The difference must be very very very small. Which could make both ways very viable as a wipe at 1% is so very rare.

Note: I usually do 5 stacks of sunder hoping I don't get a trinket proc. No BT or WW reduces the proc chance so you can delay the proc and not waste any bit of it! If the trinket procs Taunka or Dwarf (Vrykul sucks) off auto attacks, WW and BT are not on cooldown so I turn around and start my dps rotation to get benefits from the proc. It's RNG at its best right?