Thread: Windfury ICD

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Synthets View Post
    Just give me back the old windfury totem and it proccing on yellow (ability) hits and I'll be a happy paladin.
    1.) no. blizz wants to homogenizise buffs. dk´s bring 20% haste, rets will bring it with cata, enh brings it

    2.) no. the old wf totem was way to strong for certain classes while at the same time completely or almost completely useless for others ( feral druid and enh, rogue poisons )

    3.) no. wf is THE melee shaman defining spell and it should be exclusive for them.

    4.) no. it would make enh the by far best supporter and mandatory for every raid
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    yes it will be. didn´z you see that vid where wf was glitched? 45k dps peak with ulduar gear on a dummy.

    yes it was wf/wf in the vid, but even with wf/ft, it will surely be a 10k dps increase atleast not factoring in icc instance buff.

    enhancement shaman are stacking haste already as it is. what currently limits it´s value is the cooldown on abilities like stormstrike, shocks, lavalash, fire nova etc. with wf´s icd gone our haste value would go out of the roof and as we already run with nearly 1k haste rating without any procs/buffs, you can bet that we´ll be totally destroying any other dps class without any trouble.
    A change like that would require cross proccing. Any ICD on Windfury will prevent cross procing.

    ---------- Post added 2010-06-29 at 04:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Askold View Post
    probability of chaining wf procs is only 0,2*0,2 = 0,04 (4%)
    so if blizzard make enchants' unique then removing ICD isn't problem
    Windfury attack generates 2 hits, meaning you have a 4% chance to proc a second windfury from each attack of your first windfury. That's 8% chance to proc a windfury from a windfury, or in other words a double or higher windfury is over 1/3 as likely as a single windfury.

    My probablity is really rusty so I think I'll ask someone about this tomorrow, but suffice it to say that with no ICD the expected number of hits from a single attack with a WF imbued weapon is over 2. Think about what that means considering with the current windfury the expected number of attacks is about 1.2.
    Last edited by Fornaw; 2010-06-29 at 04:45 PM.

  3. #43
    I don't think they could completely remove the ICD with out causing dps problems and PvP problems. Fornaw is right on the money when he talks about windfury procing from windfury hits. This is why the ICD was added in the first place. Chaining Windfury procs added too much dps and too much burst, especially when we were using 2hders. This would lead to occasionally popping people in Pvp with multiple windfury procs going of and essentially 1 shotting someone before they could respond. Dropping it to .5 seconds would still prevent the chain procs but would remove one of the barriers to fast weapons as even a highly hasted fast dagger should still have the chance to proc every hit.

    Granted, I don't think just removing the Windfury ICD is enough to make fast weapons viable for the main hand. Stormstike and any PPM mechanics on the main hand will still favor a slower weapon. Making fast weapons viable would require carefully checking all of our mechanics to make sure they didn't heavily favor a slow weapon and any minor favoring balances out and it would need to be checked across gear levels to watch for scaling issues.
    Last edited by evan_s; 2010-06-29 at 05:01 PM.

  4. #44
    What about the idea of a damage gain for every swing with windfury, that is consumed by windfury proc? Keep the current ICD, and anytime windfury *would* have hit, give a +30-50% windfury damage, stacking to a maximum of 60-100% or something. This way you don't have buggy Windfury spam mechanics of classic, And you don't have a massive dps loss due to bad weapon setup.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarios View Post
    I've always been a raider throughout Wotlk, Just bored of PVE.. And yet, I still had no trouble keeping up with others. Maybe in ulduar on certain fights, but that's about it.
    Which negates your opinion on the matter because your raid isn't optimized to it's potential and therefor not a true example of enh dps. Enh and ele shaman are clearly behind other classes and specs.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Dewote View Post
    Yea, it needs to be lower.
    Removing it completely would be overpowered (yet really fun ).
    Just a video in ulduar gear without ICD (bugged ptr) = insane dps
    that video is WF procing off of another WF proc along with no ICD obviously, so it wouldn't quite be that crazy but wouldn't be to terribly far from it having WF go off almost every swing

  7. #47
    so 0.5 sec wf ICD would be optimum, but they should somehow force not to use us wf on off hand

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Askold View Post
    so 0.5 sec wf ICD would be optimum, but they should somehow force not to use us wf on off hand
    This entire conversation was spawned from a post talking about making the enchants unique.

    This can be read two ways, only usable per spec.

    OR

    One per weapon.

    Considering the way other abilities are being added into enh, I'm reading this as 1 per weapon.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Askold View Post
    probability of chaining wf procs is only 0,2*0,2 = 0,04 (4%)
    so if blizzard make enchants' unique then removing ICD isn't problem
    However, what we'd like to do is: A) Restrict DW to Enhancement only, B) Restrict shaman weapon enchants to being unique (meaning no WF / WF or FT / FT), and C) Remove the internal cooldown on Windfury, since once you can only have one, the proc rate won't be a balance problem.
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  10. #50
    Every single chance on hit thingy has became ppm in this game, why is it so absurd to do same thing for wf? Ppm system also scales with haste (afaik) so it would be easy to change (no weeks of programming like they re afraid. I mean, every other enchant is ppm). Ofc removing cd would be awesome but i dont think they'll do it.

    Btw daggers will !NEVER! be "fine" for us. Have you guys ever played rogue? They use daggers becouse mutilate's tooltip clearly states "can only be used with dagger". They would use a freakin two handed if they could.

    I dont think we'll ever get a talent or skill that favors daggers so dont worry, we'll be choppin and poundin with axes/maces/fist weapons.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    Every single chance on hit thingy has became ppm in this game, why is it so absurd to do same thing for wf? Ppm system also scales with haste (afaik) so it would be easy to change (no weeks of programming like they re afraid. I mean, every other enchant is ppm). Ofc removing cd would be awesome but i dont think they'll do it.

    Btw daggers will !NEVER! be "fine" for us. Have you guys ever played rogue? They use daggers becouse mutilate's tooltip clearly states "can only be used with dagger". They would use a freakin two handed if they could.

    I dont think we'll ever get a talent or skill that favors daggers so dont worry, we'll be choppin and poundin with axes/maces/fist weapons.
    I don't really disagree with making windfury a PPM, but honestly it's not necessary. Most PPMs in the game are designed with the intention of normalizing weapon speeds. For example if MW was a specific chance on hit we would all be using daggers in Wrath. Windfury doesn't really need this treatment, without the ICD Windfury is completely neutral, it favors neither fast nor slow. The reason is because the damage done by windfury is completely dependent on weapon speed (unlike MW for instance). The ICD makes slow weapons favored because you need to get the most damage from windfury when it can actually proc.

    Technically we already have a talent which favors daggers, it's called Static Shock. As long as static shock remains a small portion of our damage compared to SS and LL we can expect slow will have preference in Cata. There's one little hickup here, which Rouncer was eluding to on the forums earlier. With so much of our damage coming from spells caster weapons look really well itemized. The dps sacrifice to gain spellpower can actually be a good thing. Considering caster weapons are all MH only 90% of which are fast, and the primary reason we prefer slow MHs, windfury, becomes normalized in Cata there's legitimate concern that caster daggers/maces may become our best choice in mainhand weapons. I don't think Blizzard is dumb enough to allow caster weapons to be our primary mainhand choice, but I don't see a good solution other than #1 leave the ICD and keep caster weapons fast, #2 make spells a small part of our overall damage. Neither of those is appealing.

  12. #52
    Prior to the ICD across all WF ranks it had a proc rate of roughly 16% with wf/*, and 18% wf/wf. That said, no WF ICD means WF proc = 36% chance to proc a second WF. If it happens to proc the very first swing of the WF proc, you then get 18% *3.

    This is all great and wonderful, but you should understand that the removal of the WF ICD moves enhancement back to what we were in BC: Enchancement Shamans. Meaning our DPS is totally dependent upon RNG, as i watched my DPS sometimes vary +/- 400 DPS (in BC HUGE difference), im not entirely happy with this train of thought.

    So lets break out the "in theory" phrase (hence forth referred to as IT). IT you could one shot: A mob, a player, or even a raid boss. IT you can also take a hundred 100 sided die and the roll be sequential. Again, this is IT. Its called RNG (random number generator). When using randoms it is completely possible to roll the same number, 100 times in a row, how ever unlikely.

    So as a final parting, 2H IS DEAD GET OVER IT! Look at the possible 2H weapons, they are all staves, slower than our 1H weapons, with the same DPS. When compared with stats as well, DW comes out ahead. I hope im not crushing anyones hopes and dreams (i actually i do), buts it over, live with it.

  13. #53
    Herald of the Titans Baabinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciege View Post
    Prior to the ICD across all WF ranks it had a proc rate of roughly 16% with wf/*, and 18% wf/wf. That said, no WF ICD means WF proc = 36% chance to proc a second WF. If it happens to proc the very first swing of the WF proc, you then get 18% *3.

    This is all great and wonderful, but you should understand that the removal of the WF ICD moves enhancement back to what we were in BC: Enchancement Shamans. Meaning our DPS is totally dependent upon RNG, as i watched my DPS sometimes vary +/- 400 DPS (in BC HUGE difference), im not entirely happy with this train of thought.

    So lets break out the "in theory" phrase (hence forth referred to as IT). IT you could one shot: A mob, a player, or even a raid boss. IT you can also take a hundred 100 sided die and the roll be sequential. Again, this is IT. Its called RNG (random number generator). When using randoms it is completely possible to roll the same number, 100 times in a row, how ever unlikely.

    .
    It already is.

    Think about, maelstrom, static shock procs, wf procs.

    What they are doing is actually slightly reducing the RNG on windfury's side. By not having that 3~ second ICD it can now proc from EVERY weapon swing! Which is ALOT easier to balance, and will have less influence on your RNG-based DPS.

    So as a final parting, 2H IS DEAD GET OVER IT! Look at the possible 2H weapons, they are all staves, slower than our 1H weapons, with the same DPS. When compared with stats as well, DW comes out ahead. I hope im not crushing anyones hopes and dreams (i actually i do), buts it over, live with it
    You know, they're actually (not on purpose i assume) making it stronger by incorporating +% additional weapon damage in Stormstrike, and even more with the simple removal of the WF ICD. So yes, it might still be weaker then d/w but it sure as hell is alot more fun!

    On a side note: I am quite sure they will not allow us to proc WF from WF again. The stars might have to align for it to work, but one-shotting a boss is just retarded no matter how you to it.
    Last edited by Baabinator; 2010-07-06 at 12:37 PM.
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  14. #54
    You're aware of course that removing the WF ICD will not change anything with 2H weapons compared to today ? Because no 2h weapon has a speed < 3s !

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Trample View Post
    You're aware of course that removing the WF ICD will not change anything with 2H weapons compared to today ? Because no 2h weapon has a speed < 3s !
    Haste. Unless windfury is based on base weapon speed, which I don't think it is, haste would affect the dps of a 2 hand a lot. Flurry is already a talent, add in some haste, maybe Mongoose (that has haste a haste proc right?) and you could get pretty fast swings.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Baabinator View Post
    It already is.

    Think about, maelstrom, static shock procs, wf procs.

    What they are doing is actually slightly reducing the RNG on windfury's side. By not having that 3~ second ICD it can now proc from EVERY weapon swing! Which is ALOT easier to balance, and will have less influence on your RNG-based DPS.



    You know, they're actually (not on purpose i assume) making it stronger by incorporating +% additional weapon damage in Stormstrike, and even more with the simple removal of the WF ICD. So yes, it might still be weaker then d/w but it sure as hell is alot more fun!

    On a side note: I am quite sure they will not allow us to proc WF from WF again. The stars might have to align for it to work, but one-shotting a boss is just retarded no matter how you to it.
    Well they consider removing the ICD. So WF might proc from WF again but only on a MH weapon. Why not i say? Probably wont be HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE dps increase, like we will be OP or something.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxhoundn View Post
    Well they consider removing the ICD. So WF might proc from WF again but only on a MH weapon. Why not i say? Probably wont be HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE dps increase, like we will be OP or something.
    What is this word you speak of? It doesn't show anywhere in my How-To-Shaman book!


    Trample
    You're aware of course that removing the WF ICD will not change anything with 2H weapons compared to today ? Because no 2h weapon has a speed < 3s !
    And the possibility of stormstrike proccing WF right after a normal white hit procced WF.
    And perhaps even Unleash Weapon.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Baabinator View Post
    What is this word you speak of? It doesn't show anywhere in my How-To-Shaman book!
    yeah thats why im saying it...would like to feel it once tho

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronoz View Post
    i kinda like this enhance has gone to much to the spell casting side but thats just my opinion and thats why i respeced to ele. but lowering the icd on wf is like messing with the beast just pimp the damage or give us wf atk button that you can press ever now and then instead :P
    Did you really just say that enhance casted too much so you respecced to elemental??
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