Skill? GS?

[AuthurDent]

This is what you are getting using gearscore:

[Blizzyb]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=raid+awareness

Thanks! I'm good at PvE now!

[Evilmoo]

Thanks! I'm good at PvE now!

Join my guild please!

[Riboe]

Most of you will say "You have to know your class"... Comon... Read a bit, play a bit and your good to go.

Have you been living in a cave or something? I see an incredible amount of people who fail at the 'know-your-class'-part everyday.
It does require some skill. If it didn't take skill, there would be no players at level 80, with 500 DPS.

So, after examining that, skill = your reaction, the better you react the more skillful you are. If skill is in fact, your reaction, then in PvE it has no significance at all! The part which is concidered as your reaction in PvE is knowledge and rotation, which could be found on the net. You know what your opponent will do next, hence you know what to do next without even having the need to think of doing that.

If it doesn't take skill to look up something on the internet, learn it, memorize it and finally do it, there would be no raids that would wipe at all (Assuming they have the gear required for that particular raid).. The only raids that would wipe is those that are world first kills..

Also reading about something, then doing it can be hard.
You might see someone drowning, you know what to do, but you fail to do it because you panic, gets distracted or something else. Reading =/= Doing what you read..

[Eboncor]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-gt-Chronicles

ICC in blues

Success in this game is solely the result of knowing how to not stand in fires.

[meroosher]

Its no exactly skill, its more of "dont be a dumbass and move your ass out of shit", which gear wont really do for you.

This.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=raid+awareness

Plus, "don't stand in that thing" doesn't require skill, it requires a minimal level of intilligence.

[Blizzyb]

That is true. Seriously though, it doesn't take that much skill to raid. That palading is probably just lazy, dont care, can't read, etc. I didn't mean to say PvP>PvE, I added PvP as an example.

Does this totally contradict what you're trying to say in the OP?

"It's so easy to google these things, not a single person ever could be doing it wrong...except for him."

[Disarmed]

I lol'd at

1. Gear
2. Rotation
3 Knowledge

or whatever it was.

It's funny how that my DK, with what, 5400 or 5500 GS? Not too sure, but I can out perform kids who I can see are better geared than me. Just this past week I was out DPSing and out performing some other DK in my raid. Gear will never be more important than skill


go away

[Elrath]

Every now and then I see the usual thread/post/comment about "Skill > GS".
I think this isn't true. Don't get me wrong, I'm against "if GS not 5.5k gtfo" and in favor of letting everyone raid and have fun, but I think what a lot of people say isn't true.

Let's examine the role of DPS in a raid.
There are three factors which affects the contribution of a DPS role:
1. Gear.
2. Rotation. (the spells he uses and when)
3. Knowledge. (tactics and whatnot)

Let's start with the least controversial:
1. Knowledge. It's not difficult to find everything you need to know about a certian boss/raid in the internet. Every idiot can use Google, wowwiki, etc.
So far, everyone could do that. No skill so far.

2. Rotation. This could fall under knowledge, but whatever. Anyway, if you level your character all the way to 80, you figure out along the way what spells are good and bad, and when to do what. If you couldn't figure that out, (which isn't hard) you can always Google it up. Again, not hard.
So far, everyone could do that. No skill so far.

Both of the section above can be learnt by anyone, it's not hard at all! That leaves us only with gear as the factor that affects how will the player contribute.

3. Gear. In order to get a good gear you must do heroics and raids. If a player knows the two factors above, he can reach that without any problems. As we saw, it's not hard to master a good rotation and get some information, so that leaves us only with the gear!

In PvE everything is already known, you don't even need to think, just do what the tactic says. The players know how the boss would react.

In PvP though, one must have skill, how your opponent will react is unknown, Therfore, you have to react by thinking fast, and doing the right action. In every combat, you have hundreds of possibilities, everything you do will affect the combat.

So, after examining that, skill = your reaction, the better you react the more skillful you are. If skill is in fact, your reaction, then in PvE it has no significance at all! The part which is concidered as your reaction in PvE is knowledge and rotation, which could be found on the net. You know what your opponent will do next, hence you know what to do next without even having the need to think of doing that.
In PvP, you can't know what your opponent will do next. You can try and predict it but you won't know it for sure. You will act according to the opponents actions, which aren't known to you!

Most of you will say "You have to know your class"... Comon... Read a bit, play a bit and your good to go.
Tanking is harder I must admit. Tank must have some skill because there will always be some unpredictable stuff: losing aggro. This would probably happen if the DPS didn't follow the tactic, which brings us to just reading... again.
Healing is also a bit harder than DPS, although all you do is throw some heals, throw a shield once in a while, and that does it.

You can flame me all you want, but you know it's true.

'Hokay, so. You state that basically gear is everything, and that knowledge and rotation are minor...

Im 1 level from 80 on my 4th 80, and I have a priest at 50, leveling quickly. I have geared two of my toons to a decent Gayscore, my druid being my main with 5.8, my warrior being my tank, at 5.5. I can tell you when I was at 4.9k, 5k gs, I was going into ICC on my warrior because of the simple fact I knew my stuff more than an average joe player.

Example:
Player A is a veteran at the game, much like myself, I maximize DPS as much as I can, while trying to help the raid or pull anything I can to help, example our Hunter who doesn't feign as often as he should is about to pull aggro off the tank, I switch from Berserker Stance to Defensive and Intervene him to reduce his threat by 10%.

Player B is a sortof newbie, decent gearscore, whatever. He tunnelvisions bosses, often failing to fire or other mechanics of the boss, he sees the hunter about to pull, even though he has the ability to reduce his threat, he decides against it because he is all about the DPS meters.

See my point? A veteran knows everything about their class, another example.

LK10, my warrior as fury was being carried by a valkyr, what do I do? Intervene the nearest target because the dps didn't down the valkyr. I doubt your average 5.5k GS player would do that for the simple fact all they care about is gayscore, and dps.

Another example (Yes this is a pvp example), would you prefer to fight a wrathful gladiator geared terrible player, or a Wrathful Gladiator title'd savage gladiator geared player...? I'd take the terrible player....

Either way, in short, skill can turn the tide of a fight around, I know I probably seem like a "know it all", etc. But honestly, im pretty sure you'd prefer a 4.8k GS Pandemonium or Paragon player over a 5.5k GS nobody. I mean really, how can you argue that?

[Bigwolfe]

I didnt read through the whole thread, but i just wanted to say GS is nothing more important then those trivia games or bejeweled. My former GM had a 6.2k GS, but with a 25% buff and doing a range friendly fight, H PP25, he couldnt break 6.5k dps. But u know, he must be good because he has a 6.2k GS, right?!?!

[jonfauscett]

In all honesty, I don't care... GS discussion should have it's own subgroup just so that we don't have 4000 GS discussions taking up space on these forums.

[Renshe]

GS = Skill because you need skill to get good gear! It's not like someone can just bring you into an ICC 25 and kill the bosses for you, no no no, it just wouldn't work.

[Ruski]

Your English is appalling, so I edited it so people can read it.

Every now and then I see the usual thread/post/comment about "Skill > GS."
I think this isn't true. Don't get me wrong, I'm against "if GS isn't 5.5k, gtfo," and in favor of letting everyone raid and have fun. However, I think what a lot of people say isn't true.

Let's examine the role of DPS in a raid.
There are three factors which affect the contribution of a DPS's role:
1. Gear
2. Rotation (The spells he/she uses and when)
3. Knowledge (Tactics and whatnot)

Let's start with the least controversial:
1. Knowledge. It's not difficult to find everything you need to know about a certian boss/raid on the internet. Every idiot can use Google, wowwiki, etc.
So far, everyone can do this, no skill so far.

2. Rotation. This could fall under knowledge, but whatever. Anyway, if you level your character all the way to 80, you figure out along the way what spells are good and bad, and when to do what. If you couldn't figure that out (which isn't hard,) you can always Google it up. Again, not hard.
So far, everyone could do that. No skill so far.

Both of the sections above can be mastered by anyone, it's not hard at all! That leaves us with gear as the only factor that affects how well the player contributes.

3. Gear. In order to get good gear, you must do heroics and raids. If a player knows the two factors above, he can reach that without any problems. As we saw, it's not hard to master a good rotation and get some information, so that leaves us only with the gear!

In PvE, everything is already known, you don't even need to think. Just do what the strategy guide says. The players know how the boss would react.

In PvP though, one must have skill. How your opponent will react is unknown. Therefore, you have to react by thinking fast and doing the right action. In every situation you have hundreds of possibilities, everything you do will affect the combat.

So, after examining that, skill = your reaction, The better you react, the more skillful you are. If skill is in fact, your reaction, then in PvE, it has no significance at all! The part which is considered your reaction in PvE is knowledge and rotation, which could be found on the internet. You know what your opponent will do next, hence you know what to do next without having the need to think.
In PvP, you can't know what your opponent will do next. You can try and predict it but you won't know it for sure. You will act according to the opponents actions, which aren't known to you!

Most of you will say "You have to know your class"... Comon... Read a bit, play a bit and your good to go.
Tanking is harder I must admit. Tank must have some skill because there will always be some unpredictable stuff: losing aggro. This would probably happen if the DPS didn't follow the tactic, which brings us to just reading... again.
Healing is also a bit harder than DPS, although all you do is throw some heals, throw a shield once in a while, and that does it.

You can flame me all you want, but you know it's true.

[meroosher]

Does this totally contradict what you're trying to say in the OP?

"It's so easy to google these things, not a single person ever could be doing it wrong...except for him."

No... I said "that much skill" -- really low, and easy...

---------- Post added 2010-06-29 at 08:54 PM ----------

'Hokay, so. You state that basically gear is everything, and that knowledge and rotation are minor...

Im 1 level from 80 on my 4th 80, and I have a priest at 50, leveling quickly. I have geared two of my toons to a decent Gayscore, my druid being my main with 5.8, my warrior being my tank, at 5.5. I can tell you when I was at 4.9k, 5k gs, I was going into ICC on my warrior because of the simple fact I knew my stuff more than an average joe player.

Example:
Player A is a veteran at the game, much like myself, I maximize DPS as much as I can, while trying to help the raid or pull anything I can to help, example our Hunter who doesn't feign as often as he should is about to pull aggro off the tank, I switch from Berserker Stance to Defensive and Intervene him to reduce his threat by 10%.

Player B is a sortof newbie, decent gearscore, whatever. He tunnelvisions bosses, often failing to fire or other mechanics of the boss, he sees the hunter about to pull, even though he has the ability to reduce his threat, he decides against it because he is all about the DPS meters.

See my point? A veteran knows everything about their class, another example.

LK10, my warrior as fury was being carried by a valkyr, what do I do? Intervene the nearest target because the dps didn't down the valkyr. I doubt your average 5.5k GS player would do that for the simple fact all they care about is gayscore, and dps.

Another example (Yes this is a pvp example), would you prefer to fight a wrathful gladiator geared terrible player, or a Wrathful Gladiator title'd savage gladiator geared player...? I'd take the terrible player....

Either way, in short, skill can turn the tide of a fight around, I know I probably seem like a "know it all", etc. But honestly, im pretty sure you'd prefer a 4.8k GS Pandemonium or Paragon player over a 5.5k GS nobody. I mean really, how can you argue that?

I'm not saying they're minor. I'm saying you can learn them pretty easily... If you can read and understand what you read, after a few tried you will get it right, even if its hard.

[Limbs of a Stare]

DPS is pretty easy in this game with a small amount of intelligence and actually trying.
However OP has not factored in tanking or healing, both of which require a lot more skill than dps. If the tank or the healer can't do their jobs properly than the group is probably going to wipe verses if a dps is under performing it is easy for a dps or two to get carried.

[deathtakes]

Just because you can Google most everything (rotation, what gems/enchants/consumables to use, tactics, BiS gear and so on) does not make you a good player. GS is simply a gauge at which to see where people are at progress/gear wise and then you can pray that they know how to play their class half decent.

Case in point, (and I'm sure this has happened to everyone at least once) you go into a heroic, the tank has full badge gear, but doesn't have frost presence on or righteous fury on or is just running around heroic striking each mob individually or any other variation of this nightmare you've been a part of. The worst part is is they can get 5k+ GS doing this and they will get invited over someone with 4.5k GS who doesn't do this simply because of the mod.

P.S. OP disguised "PVP V PVE" thread as a "skill>gs" thread.

[xionkarl]

DPS is pretty easy in this game with a small amount of intelligence and actually trying.
However OP has not factored in tanking or healing, both of which require a lot more skill than dps. If the tank or the healer can't do their jobs properly than the group is probably going to wipe verses it is easy for a dps or two to get carried.

You're wrong.

Tank is the easiest job in a raid, and as tank you rely more on gear than skill. About the only skill a tank needs in a given boss fight is the ability to know when to hit cd's and when to taunt.

Healers' job is also easy. You find a place to stand where you are relatively out of the way (Albeit not possible on some encounters) and you heal. With the addons people use nowadays to heal it isn't that difficult to heal and still avoid encounter mechanics. It's even easier when you are a tank healer, and your sole responsibility is healing one or maybe two people.

However, as a damage dealer, you have more pressure on you, it's easier for you to die or screw up, and you have to play to encounter mechanics while keeping up a good amount of damage. There are more damage dealers than a raid than any other job, so the pressure is greater, if you don't do your job up to par, you will probably be replaced pretty easily.

Damage Dealing classes rely heavily on having to perfect their rotation, research their class and spec options, and figure out what works the best for each situation.

[Evilmoo]

You're wrong.

Tank is the easiest job in a raid, and as tank you rely more on gear than skill. About the only skill a tank needs in a given boss fight is the ability to know when to hit cd's and when to taunt.

Healers' job is also easy. You find a place to stand where you are relatively out of the way (Albeit not possible on some encounters) and you heal. With the addons people use nowadays to heal it isn't that difficult to heal and still avoid encounter mechanics. It's even easier when you are a tank healer, and your sole responsibility is healing one or maybe two people.

However, as a damage dealer, you have more pressure on you, it's easier for you to die or screw up, and you have to play to encounter mechanics while keeping up a good amount of damage. There are more damage dealers than a raid than any other job, so the pressure is greater, if you don't do your job up to par, you will probably be replaced pretty easily.

Damage Dealing classes rely heavily on having to perfect their rotation, research their class and spec options, and figure out what works the best for each situation.

DPS is more pressure then tanks and HEALERS?
lets take arcane mage for example (xD) 111PROC2,3,11PROC1(<see teh skill!),2,3..

[FattyXP]

Just to give my 2 cents on this bit...
I do agree that skill>gs... when it comes to certain things. I've killed the Lich King... so I'm experienced and I'm somewhat skilled. But I'm not going to try to take a 4k gs alt of mine through icc.... doesn't matter how skilled I am. I'm not going to be doing enough dps/heals or I'm going to get 1 shot by trash as a tank. If everyone else super outgears the content (ie they are in all heroic gear and we are doing normal mode, or all 25 man gear and we're doing 10) then I would bring AN undergeared heals or dps, as everyone else makes up for it. (ie single, one, less than two)
You can get a 6k gs by simply running the first wing of 25 man icc every week (which as we all know isn't exactly hard) There are a few people on my server that are examples: resto druid with 5910 that hasn't cleared past first wing on 25 OR 10 man, and heals with nothing but Healing Touch. (I looked at recount) So using GS as a skill meter just doesn't work.

DPS is more pressure then tanks and HEALERS?
lets take arcane mage for example (xD) 111PROC2,3,11PROC1(<see teh skill!),2,3..

Its not as easy as you think playing an arcane mage. Especially as easy as that. You have 4 long use cooldowns to time correctly, and you have to hope and pray that the 60% chance to proc missles doesn't take 12 blasts to proc (I myself have had such a dry spell that I got off 16 blasts before missle proc) You'll run yourself oom if you don't pay attention or just wait for a missle proc that never comes. Not to mention blowing cooldowns at the wrong or bad times completly nerfs your dps for the entire fight. Lets talk about how hard your tank rotation is... Hmm lets see 6 abilities... oh they all have nifty cooldowns that end up GIVING you your rotation by just using them. So hard. (see my sig? I have a pally tank too)

Come to think of it. Lets analyze every dps rotation... They all have 6-10 abilities, all of which have specific circumstances in which to use them. (ie one is aoe, one is single target)
Please, PLEASE enlighten me as to what class actually has a hard rotation, cause I've played them all and none of them do.

[Rejuv]

I have several geared 80's you are a retard for saying pretty much everything.

This is in my opinion of course
::
ORDER OF SKILL

Healing
DPS :: based on movement not damage
Tank

I have done them all and HEALING is definitely the most difficult job on raid encounters, considering most encounters pivot on healer skill in ICC and Ulduar. I would suppose as long as you don't stack healers which is just dumb. We run minimum heals to get the job done and it can be very tough going. People just don't realize what it takes to keep idiots alive. Although I speak from a raid healers perspective (druid) I would guess tank healer has it pretty easy comparably.

I run a shadowpriest as my main DPS'er and I gotta say DPS is pretty damn easy, just watch your ass and know the fight. Tho I will say its slightly tougher than tanking because stuff can actually kill you.

Tanking is by far the easiest. When I want to take it easy for a raid I bring my tank, tanks don't have to worry about most raid hazards and pretty much pop cd's and afk, especially in ICC what a joke.


ORDER OF WORTH

Tank
Healing
DPS