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  1. #21
    I understand what you are saying evan but, in fact, this shaman tank has videos of him doing Ulduar, and it looked like he was doing fine. And like I said, I am not asking for enhancement shamans to become tanks, just wondering why they have things that give us certian abilities to tank. Just like feral druids can spec either way.

    And for shockadins, still this is early stages, and we will have to see if they remove the instant heal from ret pallies if they are allowing them to use holy shock.

    But I completely agree with you about changing the mechanics on getting def gear will make tanking easier. Hell, Ill make my pally prot in that case, come cata

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-06 at 04:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalokagathos View Post
    What i find wierd about the Rockbiter taunt is.. Its meant for saving a healer in a stressed situation (Or something likely)..
    But you will have to apply rockbiter to your wep before you use Unleash Weapon, there after to reput whatever wep ench you had on before..
    never thought of that one, I see what you mean. Maybe this will encourage us to chanage our enchants. Perhaps for pvp when we need the heal, we might use earthliving weapon for unleash weapon.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by evan_s View Post
    My point is that based purely on the percentages of classes that could be a tank there should be plenty of them around so the fact that there isn't enough around isn't because of a lack of options. It's because there are other factors that make people not interested in tanking, especially in random heroics. If the tank problem isn't due to not having enough options, then adding another option isn't going to substantially change the situation.
    im a longtime playing enhancement shaman. it´s my main since before tbc and will always continue to be it. i wouldn´t mind tanking one or two heroics, or even taking up the role in a raid.

    what´s keeping me from tanking is not that i h8 lvling, but that i h8 having to farm the gear.
    after i have leveled a character on 80, i immidiate lose interest, because it´ll mean farming heroics for badges till im sick of it and additionally looking for pugs. gearing a new character takes much of time and i´d rather have the option to tank with the current enhancement gear ( agility based tank ), than having to take the time and go through the trouble of building up my tank twink.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-06 at 08:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalokagathos View Post
    What i find wierd about the Rockbiter taunt is.. Its meant for saving a healer in a stressed situation (Or something likely)..
    But you will have to apply rockbiter to your wep before you use Unleash Weapon, there after to reput whatever wep ench you had on before..
    and that´s blizzards recipe for shaman in general. ability clusters and abilities which need other abilities to work.

    ability clusters:
    shocks
    totems of same element
    call of the spirits/ancestors/elements
    shields
    elemental totems

    abilities to use abilities:
    feral spirit abilities
    unleash weapon effects
    fire nova/fire totem
    fire shock/lvb crit ( that´s a minor one, i admit )


    and ofc there are abilities fulfilling more than one purpose, which is crap:
    wind shear =>threat dump/interrupt
    shamanistic rage => damage absorb/mana regen/dmg increase(t10)
    thunderstorm => knockback/aoe dmg/mana regen

    those three types of abilities are one of shamans main weakness, and blizzard keeps expanding on those.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbuns View Post
    I understand what you are saying evan but, in fact, this shaman tank has videos of him doing Ulduar, and it looked like he was doing fine.
    Ok, so no ICC buff but you can outgear it by so much that it is effectively the same thing. That doesn't change what I said. It's a gimick being done by bored people, like the all dk OS, not an indication that it is remotely viable.

    And like I said, I am not asking for enhancement shamans to become tanks, just wondering why they have things that give us certian abilities to tank. Just like feral druids can spec either way.
    Having some defensive abilities doesn't mean that they are tanking abilities. Pretty much every class and spec has at least some abilities that are defensive in nature. They are generally considered PvP talents not tanking talents. Just look at the talents. Anticipation has a reduction in the duration of a disarm and toughness has a reduction in the duration of snares. Those can be useful in PvE but are really for PvP considerations.

    As an example of another class with defensive cooldowns, shadow priests have Shadow form and dispersion, which both reduce damage taken.

    There are even other non-tanking classes/specs that have taunt abilities. Hunters are a pure dps class yet still have a taunt.

    At this point shaman don't really have any more tanking abilities than any other non-tanking class. Sure we had some others back in the day but they have long since been removed.

    Kalokagathos is exactly right about why the Taunt on Rockbitter weapon is rather pointless. To actually use it to save a healer or something we would need to switch enchants and not have Unleash Weapon on CD which means at least 1 GCD before the taunt and more likely longer than that. I think they should just remove rockbitter at this point as the clearly don't have any other good ideas for it and I don't really see any remaining niches it could fill. Resto is always going to use earthliving. Elemental is going to use flametongue and enhancement is going to eh WF/FT with frost being the pvp snare utility option. I just don't see a spot for rockbitter.
    Last edited by evan_s; 2010-07-06 at 08:25 PM.

  4. #24
    go to youtube and type in shaman tanking ulduar, he taped the video when ulduar only came out.
    Clearly he is not outgeared when he was doing this, and this is one of many of his videos. He claims that he uses a mixture of tanking rings/trinks/necklaces/gems/chants/pvp gear.

    Now blizz has given us 2 taunts now....frost shock...and now rockbiter weapon. With the use of shamanistic rage, stoneclaw totem(with glyph), and instant healing yourself (which could be considered something like frenzied regen, or little LoHs) which would allow you to tank.

    Dont forget those are the classes with pets, can you imagine a hunter's pet leveling that doesnt hold aggro? Jeez that would suck. But keep going with this lol, maybe blizz would read it and get some ideas haha

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbuns View Post
    Clearly he is not outgeared when he was doing this, and this is one of many of his videos. He claims that he uses a mixture of tanking rings/trinks/necklaces/gems/chants/pvp gear.
    pvp gear´s resilience does not work in pve anymore to reduce the chance getting critted. blizz does everything they can to spit those renegade enh tanks in the face while still adding tanking mechanics.

    so far we got:
    stoneclaw totem dmg absorb & aoe taunt
    feral spirits aoe taunt
    earth elementals aoe taunt
    frost shocks extra threat
    rock biters extra threat
    unleash rock biter taunt
    shamanistic rage dmg absorb

    we also have
    -toughness, which exists in warriors tanking tree, paladins tanking tree and frost dk tree, all of them tank classes hmmmmmmmm
    -anticipation for extra dodge
    -spirit weapons to learn parry, while at the same point being able to block and getting good amouints of dodge through agility, and also wearing mail

    we also had (for a very very long time) shield specialisation

    we dont need your halfassed taunt, blizz. either make us real tanks or scrap all that crap and give us things we need. better aoe (especially for ele, make quake baseline), survivability, better selfheal for dps specs, better mobility, make our buffs into spells etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  6. #26
    Instead of it being a taunt and giving the idea of us being able to tank, we could use it instead to root the player or increase armor in pvp, oh wait isnt that what frostbrand weapon supposed to do....no, instead we get to slow them even more. I know that they say tht we are the master of no area...but seriously....we cant even freeze the person to stop, we just slow them down...even MORE?!

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbuns View Post
    go to youtube and type in shaman tanking ulduar, he taped the video when ulduar only came out.
    Clearly he is not outgeared when he was doing this, and this is one of many of his videos. He claims that he uses a mixture of tanking rings/trinks/necklaces/gems/chants/pvp gear.
    Checking YouTube the oldest video I could find was from july 09 and showed him taking Ignus. This is about a month before ToC came out and is in the 10 man version. It is entirely possible that he was geared out in a variety of 25 man gear including heroic mode gear and did in fact outgear the instance. It isn't a given like it would be today, but it is hardly impossible. Given that this is basically a bored stunt by him and his guild mates it is likely that they did outgear the instance otherwise they wouldn't have been trying this on a boss that was still challenging. Many of his other videos were actually after ToC had come out.

  8. #28
    The rockbiter taunt is a retarded idea. Are you seriously going to unbuff / rebuff your weapon mid combat so that you can then run over and heroically save the the healer that just pulled aggr.... oh, he is dead, because it took so long to dick around and try use a useless ability. If something is that critical that you need some sort of non-tank offtank I can guarantee you the job will go to hunters every single time, and with good reason. It is what they do well.

    If you want to tank, roll a flipping tank.
    Enhance / Elemental do DPS. Resto heals. Get over it.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jynks View Post
    The rockbiter taunt is a retarded idea. Are you seriously going to unbuff / rebuff your weapon mid combat so that you can then run over and heroically save the the healer that just pulled aggr.... oh, he is dead, because it took so long to dick around and try use a useless ability. If something is that critical that you need some sort of non-tank offtank I can guarantee you the job will go to hunters every single time, and with good reason. It is what they do well.

    If you want to tank, roll a flipping tank.
    Enhance / Elemental do DPS. Resto heals. Get over it.
    I have a warrior to tank for me. I rolled an enhancement sham because I liked the idea of a melee spellcaster. But what I am wondering is if you are going to make enhancement dps....then give us better dps skills. I dont want a taunt on rockbiter, instead make it increase the damage of earth shock or make it act like the talent fire mages have, "Impact" that stuns the target for 2 seconds. THis would be beneficial to our class

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalokagathos View Post
    What i find wierd about the Rockbiter taunt is.. Its meant for saving a healer in a stressed situation (Or something likely)..
    But you will have to apply rockbiter to your wep before you use Unleash Weapon, there after to reput whatever wep ench you had on before..
    You could make a weapon switching macro? I dunno, I think it will be used as more of a kiting thing (Like zombies on VDW or something) than a "zomg save teh healzorz!" button.

  11. #31
    Or you could get a hunter to do the same job infinetly more competantly with less risk.

    I know what I'd choose.

  12. #32
    yeah it would be a major pain but quit with the halfassed shit like omanly said, either get rid of it or make us friggin tanks, this isnt funny anymore ._.

    Press in dire situations http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jynks View Post
    Or you could get a hunter to do the same job infinetly more competantly with less risk.

    I know what I'd choose.
    I mean, of course an on demand taunt, frost shocks and instant indoor-ghostwolf makes up for some awful kitting right there.
    Add earthbind totem + roots if you're elem and heals if you get in danger that certainly is far from being on par with hunters right.

    I gladly welcome this change because i'll be able to make sure kitting or range tanking is appropriatly done instead of hoping some hunter doesn't fuck up.

  14. #34
    ok I know this isnt on the right subject, but it does fit into the topic of what I originally wrote about blizz not helping a class that has great potential.

    Wouldnt maelstream weapon work better off of crits? That way we could gem agility for pvp, which would give us extra armor (which we need), extra heals (which we need), and more damage (which we kinda need)

  15. #35
    The thing is that we only gain half the power on spells from agility compared to AP thats why AP > Agi.

    So making us use agility would probably still be worse, since it only boosts the Armor mitigable dmg.

  16. #36
    The Shaman tanking a few ICC bosses was starting to be shot only at 10-15% increase, not 25%. Unbuffed, I think he has 40-42k hp and is defensed cap.

  17. #37
    Good god, I thought bringing this crap up on these forums just got the threads deleted.

    So tired of hearing this, same with whiners whining about wanting 2Hrs back. Do you want Shamans to go back to being a balance clusterfuck? Do you really? 'cause frankly I'm quite happy with the spot we're in now.

    It's true that Enh still has a few leftover bits from when it had actual other tanking talents, but expect those to finally get the axe after the next huge overhaul they announced today. What's more, the removal of Defense as a stat in Cata will finally be the last glorious nail in the Tank Shaman coffin. So let it rot already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbuns View Post
    ok I know this isnt on the right subject, but it does fit into the topic of what I originally wrote about blizz not helping a class that has great potential.

    Wouldnt maelstream weapon work better off of crits? That way we could gem agility for pvp, which would give us extra armor (which we need), extra heals (which we need), and more damage (which we kinda need)
    Uh, no, that would be completely ridiculous. I'm pretty certain they originally DID run off of crits anyway, and it was changed for a reason.
    Last edited by Yetal; 2010-07-08 at 04:46 AM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    Really? The vanilla I remember forced every priest, shaman, druid, and paladin into healing roles and Warriors were the only viable tanks. I do remember people shaman tanking or using smite priests for shits n giggle, and theres nothing stopping you from doing that today. In fact, its a lot easier to pull that stuff off.

    I would like to see more tanking classes though. I'm not sure I'd like it to be a Shaman since we've already got a support role. Part of the problem the game has right now is that the support roles are spread too thin. It'd be better if they turned Demo Locks or BM Hunters into tanking classes.
    agree with this post If you wanted to raid then you had to fit the role that they needed you for! My priest wanted to be shadow for so long *sniff* but they always kept him holy.
    Afk= Attack, fight, kill! teh healer tellin u to kill monsters!

    OOM= out of mobs, go pull more

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetal View Post
    Good god, I thought bringing this crap up on these forums just got the threads deleted.

    So tired of hearing this, same with whiners whining about wanting 2Hrs back. Do you want Shamans to go back to being a balance clusterfuck? Do you really? 'cause frankly I'm quite happy with the spot we're in now.

    It's true that Enh still has a few leftover bits from when it had actual other tanking talents, but expect those to finally get the axe after the next huge overhaul they announced today. What's more, the removal of Defense as a stat in Cata will finally be the last glorious nail in the Tank Shaman coffin. So let it rot already.



    Uh, no, that would be completely ridiculous. I'm pretty certain they originally DID run off of crits anyway, and it was changed for a reason.

    It's far from crap, it's a new ability, for which we have been discussing the potential uses for. 30% increased threat gen and a taunt? Yeah, warrants some discussion.

    As for the deleting of posts and the rest of what you said, perhaps you should delete your own post, there is really no need (or room) for your unnecessarily negative comments here. Also, irony with the whining thing.

  20. #40
    As a vanilla wow player that raided and was server 1st in downing Nefarian, this is all I have to say...

    Stop wanting to return to the past. It's just your rose colored glasses thinking it's better. It isn't.

    Back in Vanilla the only tank used by anyone is a warrior. In face, if you were LF Tank, you were looking for a warrior. Every group REQUIRED a mage for polymorph because every other CC sucked, was unpredictable, or wasn't able to be used again in combat. Druids, priests, shamans, paladins had no other role besides healing. Warlocks were the laughing stock(Until a later patch in Vanilla). It wasn't fun, hence why they moved away from that.

    Now the game is infinitely times more fun and the only thing missing is that sense of community. The amount of complaints didn't drop, it just shifted. If they decided tomorrow that they were going to wipe everything off and restart on Vanilla server for everyone, trust me you guys wouldn't like it at all.

    PvP wasn't any better either. I was in Full T2 with T2 weapons and I by myself as a survival hunter can EASILY take down 3-4 guys. I once one shotted a mage running by the field of strife with an aimshot crit... that's how boring it is...

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