Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1
    Mechagnome
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    735

    Shadow: how much Haste is too much?

    I'm getting concerned about my haste, I may be going a little nuts with it. (Armory link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...l&cn=Tremulous)

    Was reading on Shadowpriest but my eyes are starting to glaze over. I have to wonder despite Muqq's post about there being no true cap for haste, is there a good guide on when I should stop with the haste and get on crit? I saw something about some Spriest don't drop below 30% but not sure about the validity of that. I may dump the H-Midnight Sun and go back to Frozen Bonespike, I've just always gone for haste over crit and I have to wonder if I'm at a point now where the haste isn't worth it over the crit. I'm just looking for some insight from the pros here. Thanks.
    Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.

  2. #2
    When MF is 1s is when you have too much haste.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by fabian View Post
    When MF is 1s is when you have too much haste.
    Mathematically, this is true. However, as I sit near 1300 haste, I can see some performance variability with changes to my connection. With changes in latency, I find myself clipping flays and I need to adjust my casts. This is forever why I will contend shadow DPS to be the toughest since we are primarily reliant upon a channeled spell.

    Short answer is in the current gear available, you cannot have too much haste. But be sure you have some mod to tell you if you're clipping MF.

  4. #4
    Test some different gear sets on a dummy or sim it imo. Haste for every caster is pretty money though.
    Check out my Ret Paladin YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/VarabenGaming

    #RETPRESENT

  5. #5
    Sim, sim, and sim some more. Never, ever use Target Dummies as reliable data for testing.

  6. #6
    Eventually you're going to have to much haste and to little spell power. Just try and use balance.

    I have about 1300 atm, and I've stopped being so concerned about stacking. These days I'm trying to inch out some more crit and spell power.

    You don't need a sim to direct common sense.

    80 Kingslayer Shadow Priest - Spirestone
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...e&n=Direshadow

  7. #7
    Except that even at that point, Crit won't outweigh Haste. It can come up to equal, at certain points, but yeah... You should be gemming Spell Power, SP/Haste, or SP/Spirit. I don't know where you say that gives you "too much haste, too little SP".

    You don't need a sim to direct common sense, but that "balance" isn't common sense. Where is the fine line that actually makes the difference? Common Sense says "Spell Power Increases 100% of my damage so I should use that". That's a very logical path to follow, but it's not the path to follow in pursuit of damage done.

    That's why sims are invented. Your hatred for shadowpriest.com and sims really really confuses me.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Sim, sim, and sim some more. Never, ever use Target Dummies as reliable data for testing.
    I mentioned dummys because sometimes latency and other factors give different results in the actual game vs sims. I know sims give theoretical maximums and are useful, but I think a healthy dose of dummy ing is good also. Helps with rotation etc. He may find a certain % of haste gives an easier rotation for similar dps somehow. I am sure sims do the same thing . Sims are just boring and too theoretical for me.


    I think saying never use target dummys for testing is a little silly. Not saying its "reliable data" but its still useful.
    Check out my Ret Paladin YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/VarabenGaming

    #RETPRESENT

  9. #9
    Too much haste is when Devouring Plague deals its whole damage in one second. Good luck on getting that :-). The value of haste doesn't significantly drop in any amount reachable in-game. Don't ever think you have too much haste...
    Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? Who knows? Who cares?
    I hope shadowfiend will still be able to do damage in 3.1., it's my second "nuke" button next to Inner Focus!

    Leap of faith:
    Good news everyone, we can now heal stupidity!
    http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...l&cn=Brokolice

  10. #10
    Just try and have a certain balance between ur stats that goes according with their values.
    Atm i have 3.3k sp 37% haste and 30% crit .... i wouldn't go for 27% crit and 40% haste....
    But that's just me :P This is not simcraft or everything it's just personal preference and experience since i was at that point and i prefer having abit more crit and a bit less haste.
    Oh and that must come from gear... never ever gem anything besides 23sp / 12sp/10haste / 12sp/10spi.


    Cheers
    Zoulis
    Last edited by Zoulis; 2010-07-06 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Typo's

  11. #11
    Mechagnome
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    735
    Appreciate all the input. Again, I know there's no "cap" for haste and you can theoretically never have too much haste, my concern is if there's a point where because my crit gets so low, my damage output suffers as a whole regardless of haste. Dire, I'm not sure how I'd have too little spellpower? That just keeps going up with new equipment as well.

    Also, I really like this Heroic Midnight Sun. I have the same mana regen with it as Frozen Bonespike, plus haste instead of crit. I'm puzzled as to why it ranks lower than Bonespike in the Shadowpriest.com raid thread (http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=24134).
    Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.

  12. #12
    Never... haste is linear dps returns... 1% haste is effectively 1% increase to DPS.

    Crit on the other hand has diminishing returns, the dps gain from changing your crit from 10% to 11% is more DPS than changing it from 50% to 51%.

    As such you never customise or look for crit and you stack haste/sp until the cows come home. The fact that you did read muqq's post and know there is no such thing as a haste cap has me wondering why you even asked the question, you researched the answer.

    Edit: Spriests have naturally low crit, your DPS doesn't suffer from low crit we don't really have any dps on crit talents and we don't really gain extra resources when we crit... therefore critting is simply adding damage. 1% more crit means that 1 spell in a hundred will deal double damage... whereas 1% haste lets you cast 1 more spell per hundred and that spell has the possibility of critting. That means if you're crit rate is something around 35% raid buffed that 1% haste is adding 1.35 times the damage compared to 1 that crit will.

    In any case, disregard crit, stack haste and sp. However if you're dps is poor it's got more to do with your DoT uptimes and number of MF ticks you are pulling off. Invariably poor dps has to do with GCD maximisation more than it does with gear.
    Last edited by Worshaka; 2010-07-06 at 11:03 PM.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    735
    Thanks for that post Worshaka, I appreciate your two cents.
    Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    So...

    You asked a question you already knew the answer for, just to have an opportunity to link your armory?

    Well, I will be the first to say it then, congrats on your Twilight Charred Scale I assume that was the hidden intention of this undercover bragging threat of "I has mucho haste lul"?

  15. #15
    Deleted
    don't worry about having too much haste, it's fairly unrealistic you're going to have 'too' much at this point with the available gear.
    the main thing is just to make sure you aren't sacrificing more of other stats to get haste. You mentioned midnight sun and bonespike. if that's heroic bonespike then it's still a massive upgrade because of the spell power, regardless of the haste difference.

    As for other stats, just keep simcrafting. It's fairly rare, and if you're following the commonly used gear sets it really shouldn't happen but there are times where haste > spell power. and also crit > haste.
    These points would require some regemming but in all honesty, it's unlikely you'll ever be in that situation if you gear sensibly.

  16. #16
    Mechagnome
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    735
    Quote Originally Posted by Mew View Post
    So...

    You asked a question you already knew the answer for, just to have an opportunity to link your armory?

    Well, I will be the first to say it then, congrats on your Twilight Charred Scale I assume that was the hidden intention of this undercover bragging threat of "I has mucho haste lul"?
    Actually, no. Let me go over this again: I have a lot of haste. My concern was that by building up too much haste and lowering my crit to 27% and lower, that I would be in effect "running in place" even by gaining haste because I would be losing "critical" crit, as it were. Does that make sense?

    Now, Worshaka brought up a good point that I like, saying "Spriests have naturally low crit, your DPS doesn't suffer from low crit" along with "In any case, disregard crit, stack haste and sp".

    Redsparrow also confirms this, but mentions at high levels crit can be greater than haste, and honestly with my lack of Spirit as well, I have to consider if using Volde's instead of Lich Wrappings would be better, along with the Spike/Sun issue.

    BTW Sparrow, I don't have heroic Spike yet, I'm hoping for it soon though if I'm lucky. Heroic BS would be an obvious choice over Sun!

    Aaaaaaaaaaand....I never post on these forums unless I have a question, which is fairly rare as I'll try to research the answer first, so I'm not worried about bragging to a bunch of people who I don't know on the internet.

    For anyone curious, I am so ridiculously low on spirit that right now I'm going to use Volde's over Lich Wrappings simply for the crit/spirit, also it has more raw SP than Wrappings. I lose mana quick, and even with fiend/dispersion/glyph of dispersion it's a pain.

    Edit: still bugs me that even normal Spike is higher on the 3.3 thread than Sun, I may just go back to that. Guess I need to sim. Never simmed before, time for more research I guess.
    Last edited by Pontificate; 2010-07-07 at 03:49 AM.
    Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    don't worry about getting more spirit.

    spirit will never be worth more than 0.59 spell power (unless you're human, or if you decide to value the regen part of spirit into a DPS value) it will however decrease in value with lower crit (spirit gets value from ST / glyph of shadow which have uptimes based on crit, ofc haste lets you crit more often but you get the idea)

    the thread with the few simcrafted gear sets can be found here:
    http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopi...28295&start=60

    the part of value:
    'Here is what I got for BIS gear with Tailoring and Enchanting, 300 sec duration without FM:

    1. HCTS + HDFO
    12890 dps
    Scale Factors:
    Int=0.5383 Spi=1.2546 SP=2.2442 Hit=3.2702 Crit=1.8025 Haste=1.7194'

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontificate View Post
    Redsparrow also confirms this, but mentions at high levels crit can be greater than haste, and honestly with my lack of Spirit as well, I have to consider if using Volde's instead of Lich Wrappings would be better, along with the Spike/Sun issue.

    Redsparrow doesn't know what he's talking about... at high levels crit gets worse and worse... as I stipulated earlier the dps effect going from 1% crit to 2% crit is > than the dps effect of 50% to 51%... crit always has diminishing returns.

    Haste on the otherhand is a linear scaling stat, that means the DPS effect from 1% haste to 2% haste is exactly the same as 50% haste to 51%.

    In addition the iLvl points required for 1% haste is considerably lower than that of 1% crit (32.79 rating vs 40 something rating)... haste is by far the superior stat...

    In terms of stat weights or equivalence points 1 haste is basically worth 1 sp... 1 crit is worth something around 0.7 (forget the exact number because I haven't really been playing competitively for awhile)

    Trust me and try to stack haste/sp as much as possible and simply take whatever crit comes with gear.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy View Post
    = With changes in latency, I find This is forever why I will contend shadow DPS to be the toughest since we are primarily reliant upon a channeled spell.
    Arcane?
    Even my horse has a Celestial Steed.
    http://imgur.com/kIg56.png

  20. #20
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka View Post
    Redsparrow doesn't know what he's talking about...

    ...
    Trust me and try to stack haste/sp as much as possible and simply take whatever crit comes with gear.
    you're saying i don't know what i'm talking about and then admit to forgetting the exact number of stat weights.
    how can you 'remember' something that changes with gear? a stat weight isn't a number that will work with any gear. The stat weights that are given by simcraft are the value of each stat for the NEXT 100 of that stat.
    so in my above example haste will improve dps by 1.7194 per 1 haste.
    crit will improve dps by 1.8025 per 1 point of crit.
    this is with using 2 haste trinkets. crit and haste scale well with each other, so saying just stack haste and ignore crit is just... silly.
    The quote from pontificate was taken out of context since you clearly didn't read my previous post.
    when he says 'high levels' he's talking about gear levels (277 gear / BiS gear sets) not high stat numbers (although these largely come hand in hand)

    The example being discussed was using 2x haste trinkets, DFO and CTS, using this combination will bring you to a massive amount of haste (in the region of 1500haste) but losing the crit from PotNL will make a large imbalance of stats (you'd only have around 900crit)

    Further more, your point about DR of crit. Maybe i'm missing the point of what you're trying to say... but 1%crit to 2% crit is the same dps increase from 50% to 51% providing other stats aren't effected.
    However i agree with you in the example you gave because the uptimes of glyph of shadow and ST would see the whole benefit of the 1% to 2% change but would likely see no further uptime between 50% and 51%.
    HOWEVER, at the gear levels relevent to this discussion (sorry we aren't catering to newly levelled 80s) glyph of shadow and ST should be very close to maximum uptime anyway, regardless of the gear choices being discussed here.
    The same is true for haste, haste is not a linear scaling stat for many reasons and to different amounts. The point you can cast exact spell lenths between other spells without clipping / waiting will be more valuable. the point at which the GCD becomes lower than 1sec lowers the value of haste, even if this is only during procs / BL. Again the uptimes of procs are also affected by haste up till 100% uptime, at which point haste further loses it's value although i can't think of any procs that aren't based on crit meaning crit and haste scale TOGETHER.

    The points you made are true when talking about general wow mechanics, but applied to a shadowpriest it seems like you're talking out of your ass.

    And to Blodbyz, arcane blast is not a channeled spell.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •