Shadow: how much Haste is too much?

[Strykie]

Also, I really like this Heroic Midnight Sun. I have the same mana regen with it as Frozen Bonespike, plus haste instead of crit. I'm puzzled as to why it ranks lower than Bonespike in the Shadowpriest.com raid thread (http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=24134).

..........................
You do realise that Mp5 is a 0 DPS stat?

Sim doesn't account for player ability, Dont exceed 1100 haste.

[Pontificate]

I realize that, yes. I also see it gives me the same mana regen as Frozen Bonespike. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Sun is about 6 points less than FBS according to BRG 3.3 Edition thread, so that just goes to show the superiority of Haste over Crit considering that MS has a 0 DPS stat as you mention. Also, some people who were kind enough to give their advice in here recommend stacking as much Haste as possible, which would make MS more appealing than FBS. Of course, this doesn't really jibe with Shadowpriest.com, and that's leading to some confusion. I actually mentioned I'll probably go back to FBS and now I think I definitely will.

lol, I'm not a math wizard, and I'm no expert at crunching numbers. I just like playing the game, and I'm trying to do my best without having to come up with the Theory to Life, the Universe, and Everything. I came in here hoping for a simple answer but there never is one with Shadow Priests. ><

Call me wacky but I'll try my luck with 1268 haste, if things get really out of control I'll just step away from the keyboard.

[Worshaka]

you're saying i don't know what i'm talking about and then admit to forgetting the exact number of stat weights.
how can you 'remember' something that changes with gear? a stat weight isn't a number that will work with any gear. The stat weights that are given by simcraft are the value of each stat for the NEXT 100 of that stat.
so in my above example haste will improve dps by 1.7194 per 1 haste.
crit will improve dps by 1.8025 per 1 point of crit.
this is with using 2 haste trinkets. crit and haste scale well with each other, so saying just stack haste and ignore crit is just... silly.
The quote from pontificate was taken out of context since you clearly didn't read my previous post.
when he says 'high levels' he's talking about gear levels (277 gear / BiS gear sets) not high stat numbers (although these largely come hand in hand)

The example being discussed was using 2x haste trinkets, DFO and CTS, using this combination will bring you to a massive amount of haste (in the region of 1500haste) but losing the crit from PotNL will make a large imbalance of stats (you'd only have around 900crit)

Further more, your point about DR of crit. Maybe i'm missing the point of what you're trying to say... but 1%crit to 2% crit is the same dps increase from 50% to 51% providing other stats aren't effected.
However i agree with you in the example you gave because the uptimes of glyph of shadow and ST would see the whole benefit of the 1% to 2% change but would likely see no further uptime between 50% and 51%.
HOWEVER, at the gear levels relevent to this discussion (sorry we aren't catering to newly levelled 80s) glyph of shadow and ST should be very close to maximum uptime anyway, regardless of the gear choices being discussed here.
The same is true for haste, haste is not a linear scaling stat for many reasons and to different amounts. The point you can cast exact spell lenths between other spells without clipping / waiting will be more valuable. the point at which the GCD becomes lower than 1sec lowers the value of haste, even if this is only during procs / BL. Again the uptimes of procs are also affected by haste up till 100% uptime, at which point haste further loses it's value although i can't think of any procs that aren't based on crit meaning crit and haste scale TOGETHER.

The points you made are true when talking about general wow mechanics, but applied to a shadowpriest it seems like you're talking out of your ass.

And to Blodbyz, arcane blast is not a channeled spell.

You should spend less time thinking u know everything and more time researching...

Crit has DR... if you cast a spell that does 1K damage 100 times u have 100k damage... if you increase crit by 1% all of a sudden you've done 101k damage on account that the 1 time u crit you dealt 1K more damage. This is an increase in damage by 1%.

Now lets assume a 50% crit rate, so in 100 spells you deal 150k damage, now you increase to 51% and deal 151k damage, this is an increase of 0.667%

Now lets go with 80% crit moving to 81... 180K damage to 181K is an icnrease of 0.556%

You arguments that I can't remember by rote what the rating conversions are is laughable, if you didn't realise I was responsible for the shadow priest DPS thread in these forums for 90% of the LK cycle, I know a thing or 2 about shadow DPS.

Just to illustrate the linear nature of haste. Lets assume a 20% crit rate... so in 100 spells of 1k damage you will on average deal 120k damage... if you increase your haste by 1% you can cast 101 spells in the same time, that extra spell has a 20% chance to crit (so you will deal 1.2 times your damage and not just 1 times extra damage as is the case with crit because an extra crit can't crit so to speak). That means the average damage u can now deal is 121.2k which is a gain of exactly 1%

Lets assume 50% haste so you are casting 150 spells at 1.2k each = 180k damage... now you can cast 151 spells (1% haste increase)= 181.2k damage and behold it's a 1% damage increase again.

Now on to your ignorance about stat weights... stat weights do NOT work with any gear. They are extremely dynamic, the more of something the less somethign may be worth or vice versa. Stat weights are only accurate for a specific set of the stats and the stat weights commonly used are based on a simcraft selected gear set that is usually accepted as what you can generally accept to be in by the end of a given tier. It is not calculated with absolute BiS, if you goto shadowpriest.com and actually read the particulars of the BiS gear list you can see what gear set is selected for the 3.3 stat weights.

As proven above the more crit you have the more downward pressure on the crit stat weight there is. For example someone with 20% crit will find that crit is higher valued than someone with 50% crit. It's far more complex than that but that's an easy illustration to show why stat weights are not useable with all gear and why they are calculated over many simcraft parses and if you read the fine print are only accurate for a specific set of stats.

Again I suggest you do some reading and less telling people how you think things work.

[fabian]

Lets assume 50% haste so you are casting 150 spells at 1.2k each = 180k damage... now you can cast 151 spells (1% haste increase)= 181.2k damage and behold it's a 1% damage increase again.

Actually, that is not a 1% damage increase. 180k * 1.01 = 181.8k
181.2k is actually closer to: ((181.2k - 180k) / 180k)*100 = .667%
Haste is still way better than crit though.

[Deyus]

Once you pass 1280 haste the value becomes effectively equivalent to crit on a point for point basis. So for the OP - haste is still by far your best stat for about the next 100 points, beyond that it becomes equivalent (or possibly marginally worse) to crit. This is interesting from a "what's the limit" perspective, but as haste, crit and spell power are still our strongest stats it does nothing to change the way we should be acquiring gear.

Also, be leery of the SimulationCraft results when you're closing on 1280 haste (the 1.0 sec GCD cap with full raid buffs). Simcraft uses a 150 point step to calculate scaling factors, so obviously if you're close to a "soft" or "hard" cap it becomes slightly unreliable (basically the scaling weight you get is the average over the 150 delta - if there's a break point inside that 150 you might have much better scaling up to the break point and much worse beyond it than the numbers the sim generates).

Here are the scaling weights for the three raiding shadow priest in our guild after last night's raid. Crafty has 983 haste, Jirral has ~1130 (I think) and I have 1317 haste at the moment. I'm considering replacing my remaining reckless ametrine gems with potent ametrine, but haven't made a decision on that yet. I'll probably hold off until I can get my hands on a better weapon to see how the boost in spell power changes things. I may change the gems to get back closer to 1280 simply because it makes casting a bit easier when there is no dead time after the cast bar for MB / VT ends.

Crafty - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...zzar&cn=Crafty
DPS/SP = 2.07
Haste = 1.06
Crit = 0.80
Int = 0.23
Spi = 0.57

Deyus - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...azzar&cn=Deyus
DPS/SP = 2.19
Haste = 0.74
Crit = 0.75
Int = 0.23
Spi = 0.58

Jirral - got hacked yesterday, armory not available at the moment.
DPS/SP = 2.16
Haste = 1.05
Crit = 0.80
Int = 0.24
Spi = 0.58

---------- Post added 2010-07-07 at 08:32 PM ----------

As proven above the more crit you have the more downward pressure on the crit stat weight there is. For example someone with 20% crit will find that crit is higher valued than someone with 50% crit. It's far more complex than that but that's an easy illustration to show why stat weights are not useable with all gear and why they are calculated over many simcraft parses and if you read the fine print are only accurate for a specific set of stats.

Not entirely true about downward pressure on crit. A bigger impact is the amount of spell power you have. See my above post for example - Crafty has more crit than I do but currently should get about 6% more benefit on a per point basis due to his higher average spell power (when including profession and trinket procs).

[Deleted]

i'm not denying crit has DR, i just don't really see how it changes anything here.
it comes across (probably wrongly) to me that in the extreme you're saying
a 10dps increase on 10dps is a 100% increase
a 10dps increase on 1000dps is a 1% increase
but both are still 10dps increases.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, i just feel you're missing things. haste is linear, except it also affects ST and GoS, making it non linear whilst reaching 100% uptimes.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about stat weights changing with gear... isn't that what i just said myself?
My point still stands that for most people concerned haste > crit but i can't ignore that this is not always the case.
It's never been mentioned before because the only times crit > haste has been with suboptimal gear sets. Now there is a very viable BiS setup which required gemming crit.

[axxey]

All theory crafting is pure math, you can't really model effectively the human error and latency.

As you reach high haste the window to fit in perfect maximised rotation without error(cliping, dot uptime etc) narrows. Kind of a side line arguement but as this happens(variable depending on how much of a machine you are, how close to server etc) the value of crit goes up as it isn't factored against time/durations.

This isn't something that's effectively modeled. Math is still always just math.

[Worshaka]

Actually, that is not a 1% damage increase. 180k * 1.01 = 181.8k
181.2k is actually closer to: ((181.2k - 180k) / 180k)*100 = .667%
Haste is still way better than crit though.

My math is wrong somewhere because haste is most certainly a linear return on DPS... another thing to point out is that haste buffs are multiplicative... whereas crit buffs are addative... so if you have the 3% and 5% haste raid buffs and have 20% haste from gear your actual buffed haste is 1.03 * 1.05 * 1.2 = 29.79%

If you then increase your haste to 21% then you have 1.02 * 1.05 * 1.21 = 30.8615% (wow rounds to 4 significant numbers as another tid bit of info). Most people tend to assume that they would have 3 + 5 + 21 = 29 which isnt' the case and as you can see for every 1% more in gear you get the multiplication effect adds slighty more than 1%.

Combined into that is that it takes 32.79 haste rating for 1% whereas it takes 45.91 rating for 1% crit... that means when you compare 1 haste rating with 1 crit rating haste is always going to win out.

For the purposes of gear strategy it is pointless to speak about needing to prop up crit... we are talking about what you choose to gem and enchant etc. You simply take whatever crit comes with gear, the best haste gear will generally have crit on it as well but in those gem slots you never choose to gem crit. The gems of choice are pure SP for red, haste/SP for yellow and personally I choose SP/spirit for blue because the loss in PP is something like 0.1 over pure SP and I figure another 10 spirit worth of regen is worth the loss of what is the equivalent of 0.1 SP, probably amounts to somethign in the range of 100 damage in an encounter, big whoop.

This idea that crit performs better at higher gear levels is ludicrous not to mention that this 1280 haste is some form of cap... at extreme haste levels (and assuming good ping) you drop MB and your MF channel with 4pc T10 is 1.7457 seconds (assuming the 3% & 5% haste raid buffs). That is nowhere near the GCD cap... in addition our DoTs benefit from haste linearly well after the GCD cap... in addition Muqq's post has been quoted in this thread showing that haste has no concievable cap with available gear. I am extremely skeptical for all the reasons in this post as to how crit could ever be more valuable than haste.

[Deyus]

This idea that crit performs better at higher gear levels is ludicrous not to mention that this 1280 haste is some form of cap... at extreme haste levels (and assuming good ping) you drop MB and your MF channel with 4pc T10 is 1.7457 seconds (assuming the 3% & 5% haste raid buffs). That is nowhere near the GCD cap... in addition our DoTs benefit from haste linearly well after the GCD cap... in addition Muqq's post has been quoted in this thread showing that haste has no concievable cap with available gear. I am extremely skeptical for all the reasons in this post as to how crit could ever be more valuable than haste.

The only ludicrous thing here is an under-geared priest who doesn't know what he's talking about lecturing people who actually are running (and sim-ing) that gear on what the performance/potential is near BIS gear levels. You are very quick to try and discount others perspectives, even when it's something you obviously have never worked it out for yourself. Taking a few minutes to consider your argument before posting would make you look at least 90% less like a douche.

If you doubt the decrease in haste's effectiveness beyond 1280 then please provide something other than your opinionated drivel to back it up. Go acquire the gear necessary to test it, or put together some wowhead profiles and run simulations. You're welcome to start with my armory if you like. Muqq's post was made several months ago based on the best information available at the time. Using the actual gear levels achieved in game today his projections are no longer correct (and I'm sure that he would be among the first to re-examine his work in light of updated input data).

[Lysdexic]

I think the haste cap is 1269 by the way. Shadow doesn't interest me nearly enough to get involved in this quagmire, but let me see if I understand.

Redsparrow and Deyus both understand that the ONLY DOWNSIDE to surpassing 1.0s GCD haste plateau as Shadow comes with refreshing dots, since you'll have a (very small) period of dead time between GCDs. Every other second of the encounter is spent mashing Mind Flay which does not suffer at all (mathematically speaking, maybe there's some human error about clipping that you're trying to account for) from surpassing 1269 haste.

So...
1. Re-applying the dots will cause some dead time, but those dots will still gain dps from this additional haste.
2. Mind flay will never suffer from being haste capped (realistically speaking).


If you both are in fact understanding that, then you need to explain something to me.

[Deyus]

Here's another way to think about it.

Below the 1.0 sec GCD cap more haste makes every button press happen faster. VT / DP / SWP / SWD / MF. All of them occur faster and allow you to use the next ability faster for every point of haste you pick up. In addition VT and DP tick faster.

Above the 1.0 sec GCD cap haste continues to allow you to spam the MF button and have VT / DP tick faster, but loses all of the other advantages. Refreshing each dot still takes 1.0 sec, casting MB to proc replenish takes 1.0 sec. Additionally, the number of times you need to refresh dots in an encounter continues to increase. Only about 55-60% of casts in a typical tank and spank encounter are MF - beyond the GCD cap the remaining 40-45% of button pushes stop scaling with haste.

Also keep in perspective that we're talking about a roughly 25-30% decrease in the value of each point of haste beyond the GCD cap. Every piece of gear still has spell power on it, and haste / crit are the next two strongest stats so it's not like anyone is saying "haste is bad, get gear with crit and spirit". This discussion really boils down to sorting out the optimum way to gem once you pass the GCD cap.

[Pontificate]

..........................
You do realise that Mp5 is a 0 DPS stat?

Sim doesn't account for player ability, Dont exceed 1100 haste.

Crap, I'm up to 1392, not sure what's gonna happen!

In all seriousness though, dropping the 5 points to quicken MB is huge, I filled out Shadow Affinity as before I would actually creep up on threat on LK against our tank, which is insane. Now, I don't have that problem and fights are fun again without having to worry too much about threat.

[Deleted]

i've spent the last week or so running various sims to find a proper BiS list since the RS loot has become available.

whilst most of it is pretty boring and predictable it might be worth pointing out that with DFO+CTS (and everything else BiS) crit does surpass haste point for point, meaning if you have this setup, you should gem crit.
HOWEVER because crit becomes greater at this point you'd be better off using a different trinket combo and gemming haste still. I also tried using the DFO+CTS combo with different 'BiS' sets, mostly using crit gear instead of haste gear (such as crit+hit ring etc) this yielded pretty much the same results as gemming crit, it's such a fine line that as soon as crit>haste, if you act on it then haste>crit.

Overall i found the BiS trinket combo was CTS+phalactry.
the rest of the gear set was fairly obvious, but i had best overall results amulet of silent eulogy to make up the lost hit from using the RS bracers.

All of the simcrafts were done with 10k iterations, 300/500sec lengths, 0/10/20% variable length. i tried with high and low latency, also testing patchwork and 'helter skelter' the results were pretty mucht he same across the board. crit and haste maintained their relative values with each other for each gear set, and changing the settings just altered their value in comparison to spell power (from around haste = 0.6sp to 0.95sp)

oh, and if you can rely on having FM all the time, DFO+CTS pulls ahead, and gem crit.

[gaymer77]

The reason why the shadowpriest.com thread has both of the Bonespikes higher than the heroic Midnight Sun is because we get use of spirit currently in addition to the crit & SP that is already on it AND because the Bonespike has more spellpower on it. The 100 SP loss to gain either 51 haste on the heroic version is not a dps gain.

As to the subject of the post, there's not really too much haste but if you have too low of SP & crit your dps will suffer. Its a good idea to have around 1100-1300 haste which most people have with the current gear.

---------- Post added 2010-07-16 at 05:34 PM ----------

Also thought I'd share that eventhough you got that staff on your first LK kill its a downgrade from the Bonespike. If you don't believe me you can look on that same ranking thread on shadowpriest.com. The staff is valued at 1180.84 PP (adjusted to have 81PP added for the 81 spellpower enchant) and the Bonespike is 1019.08 (adjusted to have 66.64 PP added for the black magic enchant). That means that all you need is an offhand valued at 161.76 to have the Bonespike equal or 161.77 to have it better to the staff which would be ANY offhand in ICC or even the Shriveled Heart from H HoR. If you're so worried about having too much haste & how a 277 dagger is somehow higher on a ranking than a 264 dagger & this post is not reall about showing off you getting our two best trinkets (RNG ftw) then you would have done the match before getting yet another thing that is a downgrade from your current weapon.

[Pontificate]

---------- Post added 2010-07-16 at 05:34 PM ----------

[/COLOR]Also thought I'd share that eventhough you got that staff on your first LK kill its a downgrade from the Bonespike. If you don't believe me you can look on that same ranking thread on shadowpriest.com. The staff is valued at 1180.84 PP (adjusted to have 81PP added for the 81 spellpower enchant) and the Bonespike is 1019.08 (adjusted to have 66.64 PP added for the black magic enchant). That means that all you need is an offhand valued at 161.76 to have the Bonespike equal or 161.77 to have it better to the staff which would be ANY offhand in ICC or even the Shriveled Heart from H HoR. If you're so worried about having too much haste & how a 277 dagger is somehow higher on a ranking than a 264 dagger & this post is not reall about showing off you getting our two best trinkets (RNG ftw) then you would have done the match before getting yet another thing that is a downgrade from your current weapon.

Thanks for your input. Clearly I missed that, I did the math and adding the value of the the 264 BS (835.39) plus the offhand I was using, Spindle (225.58) nets me a total of 1060.97, which is lower than the 1099.84 that Archus provides according to the thread. Granted, that's only a whopping 38+ point improvement, but my thought was I'll take what I can get. To be honest, I didn't notice that that thread doesn't count the enchants you can put on the weapons, which I find surprising.

EDIT: I completely missed your mistake. I had REGULAR BS, not HEROIC. Please rest assured that the minute I get HEROIC Bonespike, will be happily switching to that.



Also, while it's my first 25 LK kill, I unfortunately missed the previous one with my casual guild do to real life issues, which I'm never going to feel bad about. Fortunately I have 2 10 man kills under my belt which I did quite a while ago, so I can strut that pretty title around Dalaran regardless. Yay for me. By the way if you're curious, I was the only one interested in that staff. Everyone else has Heroic Dying Light, or Heroic Trauma, or Heroic Spike.

[gaymer77]

Archus + enchant = 1180.84 PP
Normal Bonespike + SPindle + enchant = 1127.61 PP

In addition to those number, you're in a thread complaining about having too much haste and are giving up 2 crit pieces for a haste piece. Higher rated or not, if you feel you have too much haste then why would you pick up more haste and ditch the crit from the other 2 pieces?

[klaps_05]

first work on your latency and bring it under 50ms then do calcs

[Pontificate]

Archus + enchant = 1180.84 PP
Normal Bonespike + SPindle + enchant = 1127.61 PP

In addition to those number, you're in a thread complaining about having too much haste and are giving up 2 crit pieces for a haste piece. Higher rated or not, if you feel you have too much haste then why would you pick up more haste and ditch the crit from the other 2 pieces?

I really don't recall "complaining" about Haste. I was asking a question. Those are two different things. I did lose a lot of crit using Archus over BS/SS, but Haste is kind of addicting...I just have this "moarmoarmoar" mentality which doesn't seem to be hurting my dps, and it's nice to have a staff over using a mh/oh combo for so long. I have to admit I'll be happy when my turn rolls around for Heroic BS (and I can wait for it, no rush) as I can get that crit back, plus add a lot of SP, which is always good.

At any rate, I'm quickly learning that delving into this subject on this thread is taking away from the enjoyment of the game for me, so I'm just not going to worry about it. I may not be perfectly min/maxed, but honestly I do enough to be somewhere around the top. Guess I just need to remind myself that it's just a game every now and then. Thanks for everyone's input.