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  1. #641
    Ghostcrawler also ruled out Tree of Life and Bestial Wrath.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuronv View Post
    I'm predicting the following specialization abilities

    Druid:
    Balance - Typhoon
    Feral - Mangle
    Resto - Tree of Life

    Hunter:
    Beast Mastery - Bestial Wrath
    Marksmanship - Chimera Shot (aimed shot baseline)
    Survival - Wyvern Sting

    Mage:
    Arcane - Slow
    Fire - Living Bomb
    Frost - Water Elemental

    Paladin:
    Holy - Holy Shock
    Prot - Holy Shield
    Ret - Divine Storm

    Priest:
    Disc - Penance
    Holy - Guardian Spirit
    Shadow - Mind Flay

    Rgoue:
    Assassination - Mutilate
    Combat - Blade Flurry
    Sub - Hemorrhage

    Shaman:
    Elemental - Thunderstorm
    Enhancement - Duel Wield
    Resto - Earth Shield

    Warlock:
    Affliction - Unstable Affliction
    Demonology - Felguard
    Destruction - Chaosbolt

    Warrior:
    Arms - Mortal Strike
    Fury - Bloodthirst
    Prot - Shield Slam
    I highly doubt that they would make Arcane Mage the only DPS class to not get a DPS talent in the 31st point spot, if they did that would be the biggest slap in the face to everyone that plays arcane. With that being said I dont know if I should be exictied or scared that Mages are the only class they didnt make reference to in the Blue Post :-|

  3. #643
    gj blizz now we are all druids, one tree builds bah

  4. #644
    Blizz has already stated that Holy Shock for Pallys will be baseline

    you will probably be looking at something even more stupid like the Angel Summon skill

    who knows

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuronv View Post
    Warlock:
    Affliction - Unstable Affliction
    Demonology - Felguard
    Destruction - Chaosbolt
    Chaosbolt is likely, and Unstable Affliction is a possibility (though I doubt it).
    Demonology not a Felguard. You are still collecting demons then so giving a demon lock the be-all end-all pet right at the start is asinine.
    The Demon tree is centered around beefing or using your pet powers. So any of the talents that beefs pets is most likely to be added: Master Dem., Dem Emp. or Dem. Pact are much more likely candidates to start off with from the start.

    They could also emphasize the link with the Demon and give the Fel Synergy, Manatap or Dem. Knowledge talents to give a more dynamic link with the demons.

    Honestly I'd love Demonic Pact for early locks. It's currently a signature ability of Demon Locks, even more so then the Felguard or Meta.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by rumbling View Post
    First good thing in Cataclysm (well, not really - flying over thunder bluff is pretty cool). They should have done this one expansion ago, now go make few but intresting talents and give us real choice in how to put our points! 20 different builds where only one is good enough is not a choice in any reasonable definition of the word.

    EDIT: The point of making you put atleast 31pts in the tree of your choice is ofcourse to avoid stupidity like prot-warriors with mortal strike and elemental shamans with earth shield and so on. Cuz that would be a monster to try to balance.
    You're probably right with that being the reason. However it wouldn't be an issue to balance necessarily because of dual wielding elemental shaman and anything akin to it. What I think is being overlooked is the fact that a shaman can select enhancement to receive the enhancemnt perks like dual wield. However they also receive useless melée abilities and they lose the elemental mastery perks. So would it really be hard to balance an elemental shaman who has melée mastery skills? I doubt it highly. Particularly when said elemental shaman doesn't have it's core class defining abilities.

    Personally I disagree with the whole you should feel like your talent spec argument which blizzard also uses to justify their 31 point rule. The system should be you should feel like your CHARACTER. And if that's a dual wielding elemental shaman then they should support that playstyle. I don't see anything wrog with cherry picking. Nothing blizzard does will ever remove players from doing that. Anything competitive requires it.

  7. #647
    Stood in the Fire Fortuitous's Avatar
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    I think I am going to stop reading forums now, I can't believe how blindly ignorant and passionately retarded some people are.

    These changes are 100% for the better, they make each talent point significantly more important and feel paramount to your characters development. Choosing how you will play your character at level 10, rather than getting that experience around 60+ is a massive improvement that will not only bring in a lot of new blood to the game, but let people play characters they might not have thought to before.

    Already, I can imagine leveling a warrior as protection will be a lot more fun with sword and board with shield slam, which might put more tanks potentially being in the dungeon tool. Everyone wins from this. Why are people honestly complaining? Why am I even surprised people are complaining?

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Butterbumps View Post
    The reason they are locking players into a tree is so that they can give access to some of the powerful, formerly high-level spec specific abilities earlier. They can not make the latter cool change without doing the former. It's a trade-off.

    They're basically saying at level 10 "we'll let you have, right now, one of the iconic abilities (plus various passive benefits) associated with your chosen spec, that you previously wouldn't have gotten until you were 30 or 40 talent points deep, as long as you commit to spending your first 31 points in that tree". It seems like a fair deal to me.
    ^ This.

    9-something pages later...just this is new.

  9. #649
    So.. They are giving us choices by limiting us to only one tree, 3/4 of which we would have to fill up before we even have a chance of putting a point in another tree. Am i missing something here? Has the word "choice" suddenly had it's meaning changed to the opposite?

    I'm not against simplifying needlessly complicated game mechanics, but this is clearly overdoing it. Yet they talk about depth.. Filling one tree almost completely before moving to the next is depth? Words quickly change their meaning when Blizzard is using them.

    The funny thing is, they probably feel this will rid us of cookie-cutter specs, yet they don't realize that those kind of specs will be more prevalent then before. Cookie-cutter specs are usually a result of extensive testing of different talents by many people. When the the numbers are analyzed, you get a clear picture of the state of certain talents and how important it is to grab that exact talent.. With talent trees less bloated it will be even easier to figure out "that perfect spec" for a certain role. You can not make a perfect tree. Some talents will always be more favored than the others. That's unavoidable. If you want to raid high tier content you will need to put out max dps/hps/survival possible and you will only do it if you have a certain combination of talents and that is how a cookie-cutter spec is born.

    The thing i do like is getting signature abilities early on. But i would gladly sacrifice that for the ability to pick talents from different trees. I can't even imagine how it would be like leveling a priest without spirit tap. And those 3 points in spirit tap were the only points spent in shadow until i hit 60 and switched to shadow completely. As i love leveling, i really want my leveling process to be as enjoyable as possible, and a great part of that enjoyment is the flexibility i have when picking talents. I guess that will be replaced by "signature ability"

    One more thing. Blizzard should stop catering to beginners. Those who weren't interested in what talents do, and were just clicking them randomly after getting a talent point, wont change with less talents to pick from. I guess you are going with "no mistake whichever talent you pick" route. And i can understand that if it wasn't so already. I can't even remember how many times i've ran into a dude with 0/0/71 or 0/71/0.. So even now people are just putting everything into one tree without even thinking about it, so why are you forcing us, who actually know what we want and how to play, to play as someone who just bought the game and has no idea what's he doing.

    I don't like the change but let's see what becomes of it.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuronv View Post
    I'm predicting the following specialization abilities
    Paladin:
    Holy - Holy Shock
    Prot - Holy Shield
    Ret - Divine Storm
    Holy Shock is going baseline so that is not going to be the holy baseline ability. It could possibly be beacon or there is the possibility that they give entirely new abilities as the base ability but I doubt it.

  11. #651
    Finally the amount of change I've been expecting all along, maybe it's not time to give up just yet.
    Still, I miss the path of titans, which would have been a "shared" talent tree amongst all players.

    This was sort of what I expected at first when they said they were remaking the talent trees to make each point was valuable, and now that they are stripping the talents down finally, they make it easy for themselfs not having to invent allot of new ones, instead they take away the boring ones and encapsulate them in the already existing ones, which in return make these even more attractive.

    If rend does by default 20% more damage, overpower has 50% increased critical strike chance and a few more additions, then they will be more useful by default and abilities which makes them more useful, such as Taste for Blood in arms, will indeed be more interesting at lower levels by new aswel as veteran players.


    What I feel is a little sad about this change is the fact that you cannot find these "loop holes" that makes everyday playing fun, and it lowers meta gaming.
    If that's a bad or good thing, that's already addressed in the blue post.
    I for one were thinking of leveling as a worgen prot warrior just because they've changed so much how the revenge skill that was in vanilla and most of tbc totally useless, works, that so many talents affect it's damage, now with shield slam at level 10 already it will be different, but less effective? I don't think so, rather, much more enjoyable.

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Fichek View Post
    So.. They are giving us choices by limiting us to only one tree, 3/4 of which we would have to fill up before we even have a chance of putting a point in another tree. Am i missing something here? Has the word "choice" suddenly had it's meaning changed to the opposite?

    I'm not against simplifying needlessly complicated game mechanics, but this is clearly overdoing it. Yet they talk about depth.. Filling one tree almost completely before moving to the next is depth? Words quickly change their meaning when Blizzard is using them.

    The funny thing is, they probably feel this will rid us of cookie-cutter specs, yet they don't realize that those kind of specs will be more prevalent then before. Cookie-cutter specs are usually a result of extensive testing of different talents by many people. When the the numbers are analyzed, you get a clear picture of the state of certain talents and how important it is to grab that exact talent.. With talent trees less bloated it will be even easier to figure out "that perfect spec" for a certain role. You can not make a perfect tree. Some talents will always be more favored than the others. That's unavoidable. If you want to raid high tier content you will need to put out max dps/hps/survival possible and you will only do it if you have a certain combination of talents and that is how a cookie-cutter spec is born.

    The thing i do like is getting signature abilities early on. But i would gladly sacrifice that for the ability to pick talents from different trees. I can't even imagine how it would be like leveling a priest without spirit tap. And those 3 points in spirit tap were the only points spent in shadow until i hit 60 and switched to shadow completely. As i love leveling, i really want my leveling process to be as enjoyable as possible, and a great part of that enjoyment is the flexibility i have when picking talents. I guess that will be replaced by "signature ability"

    One more thing. Blizzard should stop catering to beginners. Those who weren't interested in what talents do, and were just clicking them randomly after getting a talent point, wont change with less talents to pick from. I guess you are going with "no mistake whichever talent you pick" route. And i can understand that if it wasn't so already. I can't even remember how many times i've ran into a dude with 0/0/71 or 0/71/0.. So even now people are just putting everything into one tree without even thinking about it, so why are you forcing us, who actually know what we want and how to play, to play as someone who just bought the game and has no idea what's he doing.

    I don't like the change but let's see what becomes of it.
    your problems with the change are all based on the faulty premise that you really had choice before.

    you technically had choices, but it basically allowed you to choose to suck, if you were inclined. as far as actual good specs went, there was very little wiggle room even within the same tree, and pretty much no room between trees.

    if the good spec didn't take the bottom of the tree, that's a failure of design, not a matter of choice. if that is the good spec, then taking the bottom isn't really a choice unless you wanted to suck.

    the blue poster called them traps, and that's what they were.

    they intend to design the trees in such a way that you want to fill out that tree eventually anyways. the choice comes in within that tree. sure, i doubt there will be an overwhelming number of possibilities, but their stated goal is that each possibility will be about on par with the others, meaning you might have fewer things to choose from but actually more valid selections among them.

  13. #653
    So how much does this improve your flexibility and choice in choosing talents.

    At level 10: Very important choice, very meaningful choice.
    At any odd numbered level below 80: No talent, total loss of choice.
    At any even numbered level below or at 70: Restricted to the same tree you chose at lvl 10, much more restricted choice than you have now.
    At even levels above 70 or any level over 80: The same amount of choice you have now.

    For the vast amount of levels you will gain this restricts your choice. If you want to respec at lvl 80 or higher your choices will be far more restricted.

    Yes, this will probably improve the levelling experience but what percentage of your game time is that? 5%? 10%? If you are playing most of your time on a max level char your choices have been curtailed greatly. There are now 3 fixed talent specs for each class with only minor variations between them.

    For the 30 talent points after the first, your choice in where to spend them has, at best, been reduced by 66%. If you like the design fine, but be realistic, at level 85 you will have less talent points and more restrictions on where you spend them than you had at level 60. I think people are getting a bit carried away, dreaming of how meaningful that first talent will be and forgetting that extra meaning for that one talent comes at the cost of losing over half your talent points and most of your choice on where to spend the next 30 talent points.

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenryusho View Post
    Sigh... So they want to remove the feeling of "Oh great I leveled and got 1% hit" and replace it with "Oh yay I level and get absolutely nothing". The entire reason I played WoW was because of the talent trees and I have no desired to go back to 31 talents to a tree.
    So only thing you did in-game was playing with talent trees? Umm...

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by butterbumps View Post
    uh, some people seem to be under the impression that spending 31 points in a tree will get you all of the talents, so there will be no choices between talents any more. At no point is this stated or implied.
    pay attention people

  16. #656
    If I get DW on my shaman right at lvl10 I'll be happy! Might finally finish leveling one...

    Anyways... Sounds very interesting and intriguing.Can't wait to see this...

  17. #657
    Dreadlord Kenai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dek View Post
    your problems with the change are all based on the faulty premise that you really had choice before.

    you technically had choices, but it basically allowed you to choose to suck, if you were inclined. as far as actual good specs went, there was very little wiggle room even within the same tree, and pretty much no room between trees.

    if the good spec didn't take the bottom of the tree, that's a failure of design, not a matter of choice. if that is the good spec, then taking the bottom isn't really a choice unless you wanted to suck.

    the blue poster called them traps, and that's what they were.

    they intend to design the trees in such a way that you want to fill out that tree eventually anyways. the choice comes in within that tree. sure, i doubt there will be an overwhelming number of possibilities, but their stated goal is that each possibility will be about on par with the others, meaning you might have fewer things to choose from but actually more valid selections among them.
    Please listen to this post. It's exactly my problem with the talent trees as they are now.

    Being "unique" is nice to a point, but when your choices actually make your toon terrible because of a crappy talent spread, it's not a real choice, and everyone suffers when you decide to join a group (whether you are 5/5/5 or 71/0/0). Yes, it is your choice to play how you want, but there should be a limit on the detriment you cause to others, and when a newb gets talent choices how can they know any better? This talent revamp is literally trimming the fat. I don't think this is going to remove cookie cutter specs, but if all of the talent choices are more useful overall, then a non cookie cutter spec can still be viable. Let's just admit they really aren't right now, with the exception of maybe 1-2 odd talents points, which isn't a huge devation.

    The other aspect I like is that a toon getting a class/spec defining ability at low levels means:
    a) They have a better understanding of what this job will be expected to do as they level, so the choice of whether or not to continue at level 10 becomes more meaningful, and
    b) They can practice those class defining roles at an earlier level to get better at it sooner.

    I really don't see the problem here.

  18. #658
    This. Is. So.



    AWESOME!

  19. #659
    This sucks.. No intention at all of playing cata now anymore.

  20. #660
    The Patient Yazus's Avatar
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    But... You have 45 points. A tree have what... 45-47 points? So IF you decide to fully spec into Prot, lets say, you can be 0/45/0 but be fully prot... and get all the talents.

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