Page 34 of 36 FirstFirst ...
24
32
33
34
35
36
LastLast
  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by dek View Post
    your problems with the change are all based on the faulty premise that you really had choice before.

    you technically had choices, but it basically allowed you to choose to suck, if you were inclined. as far as actual good specs went, there was very little wiggle room even within the same tree, and pretty much no room between trees.

    if the good spec didn't take the bottom of the tree, that's a failure of design, not a matter of choice. if that is the good spec, then taking the bottom isn't really a choice unless you wanted to suck.

    the blue poster called them traps, and that's what they were.

    they intend to design the trees in such a way that you want to fill out that tree eventually anyways. the choice comes in within that tree. sure, i doubt there will be an overwhelming number of possibilities, but their stated goal is that each possibility will be about on par with the others, meaning you might have fewer things to choose from but actually more valid selections among them.
    Your entire post is based on a faulty premise that i was talking about end-game. No, in actuality it was almost completely directed at leveling experience. But let's get back to your post.
    If we didn't have a choice before and we obviously don't now, what exactly did Blizzard to? So, nothing is changed, more talents are meshed together, some talents become passive bonuses of certain tree, and we are left with is less clicks to get to the bottom of the tree. And they are advertising that as a revolution in talent trees design. Ok.

    And this quote..
    ..meaning you might have fewer things to choose from but actually more valid selections among them.
    .. is somewhat wrong. Like i said, certain talents will always be more suitable for certain roles and therefore will always be picked before some other talent. If you have a talent that improves your dps greatly and on the other hand a talent that increases it moderately and in addition to that you gain survival, you will always pick the first one for pve, and second for pvp. Illusion of choice is a wonderful thing. You never actually had a choice if you wanted to max your performance. So i ask you again, what has changed exactly? Nothing. You will use the same skills as before (in addition to new ones which you would get even with the bloated talent trees), you will "choose" the same talents as everyone else of your class/spec and all the while you will be thinking how deep and full of choice this new system is. On the other hand, while leveling you are heavily restricted, limited to one tree and you will miss some great talents for leveling in other trees that you would otherwise take. That is my biggest beef with the new system. They could do it that you only get the "signature ability" if certain tree is 3 points ahead all other trees.. That way you are a bit punished for building a hybrid, but in the end it's still your choice to make, and most importantly, you can make that choice..

  2. #662
    if tons stopped playing before wrath of the lich king then just wait, even more will quit now.

    i'm confused as to how many talent points we get, 51 works out right but i hear 41, 45, or 51 points.

    they just screwed me so bad when it comes to my priest...
    i'll probably need to be a 24/26/0 or 23/24/0 but no their probably gonna make me a worse priest by forcing me to not be able to pick the talents i need in another tree.

  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by dek View Post
    your problems with the change are all based on the faulty premise that you really had choice before.

    you technically had choices, but it basically allowed you to choose to suck, if you were inclined. as far as actual good specs went, there was very little wiggle room even within the same tree, and pretty much no room between trees.

    if the good spec didn't take the bottom of the tree, that's a failure of design, not a matter of choice. if that is the good spec, then taking the bottom isn't really a choice unless you wanted to suck.

    the blue poster called them traps, and that's what they were.

    they intend to design the trees in such a way that you want to fill out that tree eventually anyways. the choice comes in within that tree. sure, i doubt there will be an overwhelming number of possibilities, but their stated goal is that each possibility will be about on par with the others, meaning you might have fewer things to choose from but actually more valid selections among them.
    If you believe that there won't be cookie cutter DPS (or tank, or healing) specs for every class then you are being a bit naieve. If you play a DPS class a talent is only interesting if it translates into increased DPS. A reduced cooldown on Death Grip for example, while no doubt fitting Blizzards definition of an interesting talent is utterly useless in a raid DPS build. So Blizzard are faced with a fail fail situation. If someone ends up with so few DPS boosting talents in the tree that they end up taking utility or "fun" talents instead they will feel like they are wasting those talent points. Do you really think people will be cheering when they realise there is so little useful stuff to take that they have to spend some of their (now much fewer) talents on things that provide no benefit whatsoever to what they are doing? On the other hand if all the talents somehow translate into extra DPS there will, in very little time, emerge cookie cutter specs just like we have now.

    How "interesting" is defined from a talent perspective varies based on the goal. If you want to do more DPS any talent that doesn't provide that fails to be interesting by definition and if you are forced to take it because of a lack of interesting options it will feel like you have been forced to waste talent points. The problem is while one person sees having 10 talent points left over after getting the interesting options as an opportunity to pick something useful to something else (bgs, 5 mans, arenas, etc) another will see having 10 talent points left over as being forced to waste 10 talent points on useless crap.

    I am sure many specs now have a point where you need to spend 2 or 3 talents to get to the next level down without anything worth spending them on. When you spend those few points on something that provides no real benefit to you just so you can reach the talents that do provide a benefit does that feel like an interesting choice to you? Putting people in the situation where they have to do that a lot seems to be the goal of this talent overhaul.

  4. #664
    one word awesome (:

  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Multigasm View Post
    I highly doubt that they would make Arcane Mage the only DPS class to not get a DPS talent in the 31st point spot, if they did that would be the biggest slap in the face to everyone that plays arcane. With that being said I dont know if I should be exictied or scared that Mages are the only class they didnt make reference to in the Blue Post :-|
    They did make a reference to Water Elemental's in there somewhere, I picked slow because because it would really add some layer of control to a spec that would otherwise be without it whilst levelling. I would say on second thought Arcane Missles would be a better choice, what do you think of when you think of Arcane mages? PEW PEW PEW.
    I was actually going to put shadowstep for Sub Rogues but then i thought the exact thing that you commented on slow about. You are suggesting you give a DPS class a utility ability. But i do agree, when i think what defines a Subtlety rogue it is Shadowstep.

    Holy Shock is going baseline so that is not going to be the holy baseline ability. It could possibly be beacon or there is the possibility that they give entirely new abilities as the base ability but I doubt it.
    It was going to be baseline but that was before they announced this talent shake up, also they stated Prot Warriors would be getting Shield Slam as theirs which is currently baseline. It would also be a very good levelling spell as it provides two purposes.

    Chaosbolt is likely, and Unstable Affliction is a possibility (though I doubt it).
    Demonology not a Felguard. You are still collecting demons then so giving a demon lock the be-all end-all pet right at the start is asinine.
    The Demon tree is centered around beefing or using your pet powers. So any of the talents that beefs pets is most likely to be added: Master Dem., Dem Emp. or Dem. Pact are much more likely candidates to start off with from the start.

    They could also emphasize the link with the Demon and give the Fel Synergy, Manatap or Dem. Knowledge talents to give a more dynamic link with the demons.

    Honestly I'd love Demonic Pact for early locks. It's currently a signature ability of Demon Locks, even more so then the Felguard or Meta.
    I would agree, Warlocks are my weak spot (the only class I don't have at the mo) , my train of thought was that if you see a Warlock with Felguard you instantly know its a demonologist. Meta seems a bit too potent, you don't want to give people the most exciting ability straight away. I agree with what you say about emphasizing the link between the Demon and Pet
    >:7

    Full Bloggage: - http://nuronv.wordpress.com
    Micro Blogs: - http://twitter.com/nuron_v

  6. #666
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    6,721
    People whine about getting less choices when they actually get more. Most people don't even choose their talents they just go with what everyone else thinks is best (which mostly is the best :P) where is the choice in that? Now that there is no math in the new talent system (atleast not from the beginning) you get to choose alot by yourself plus there will be no more choice between bad talents and good talents since there won't hardly be any bad talents.

    Also for those who QQ about having to pick 31 talents in one tree before going into the other don't even know why there are three different trees in the first place. You are meant to specialize in one tree. Think of it as choosing between 3 different jobs. Doctor, Chef and Lawyer. Would you rather be bad at all 3 jobs or good in one of them?

  7. #667
    Mechagnome Karot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Illinois, United States
    Posts
    536
    Quote Originally Posted by lordcanyon View Post
    if tons stopped playing before wrath of the lich king then just wait, even more will quit now.

    i'm confused as to how many talent points we get, 51 works out right but i hear 41, 45, or 51 points.

    they just screwed me so bad when it comes to my priest...
    i'll probably need to be a 24/26/0 or 23/24/0 but no their probably gonna make me a worse priest by forcing me to not be able to pick the talents i need in another tree.
    I think you've been just skimming over the blue posts without reading them fully. They've already said they're going to be moving certain talents amongst the different trees so that stuff fits better. You won't have to spec halfway down another tree to be the best at your spec. Though it may still be legit to do so at higher levels.

  8. #668
    It reads like:

    1 year ago: Yeah we remove all shitty talents and replace them with cool one's where you have to choose between
    Now: Yeah our designers got nothing cool into their minds in the last 12 months so we still remove half of the talents and half your talentpoint pool, too



    I'm stil curious about the new talent trees, though.

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulver View Post
    If you believe that there won't be cookie cutter DPS (or tank, or healing) specs for every class then you are being a bit naieve. If you play a DPS class a talent is only interesting if it translates into increased DPS. A reduced cooldown on Death Grip for example, while no doubt fitting Blizzards definition of an interesting talent is utterly useless in a raid DPS build. So Blizzard are faced with a fail fail situation. If someone ends up with so few DPS boosting talents in the tree that they end up taking utility or "fun" talents instead they will feel like they are wasting those talent points. Do you really think people will be cheering when they realise there is so little useful stuff to take that they have to spend some of their (now much fewer) talents on things that provide no benefit whatsoever to what they are doing? On the other hand if all the talents somehow translate into extra DPS there will, in very little time, emerge cookie cutter specs just like we have now.

    How "interesting" is defined from a talent perspective varies based on the goal. If you want to do more DPS any talent that doesn't provide that fails to be interesting by definition and if you are forced to take it because of a lack of interesting options it will feel like you have been forced to waste talent points. The problem is while one person sees having 10 talent points left over after getting the interesting options as an opportunity to pick something useful to something else (bgs, 5 mans, arenas, etc) another will see having 10 talent points left over as being forced to waste 10 talent points on useless crap.

    I am sure many specs now have a point where you need to spend 2 or 3 talents to get to the next level down without anything worth spending them on. When you spend those few points on something that provides no real benefit to you just so you can reach the talents that do provide a benefit does that feel like an interesting choice to you? Putting people in the situation where they have to do that a lot seems to be the goal of this talent overhaul.
    I think there is room for "interesting" talent choices that don't have to impact your dps/tanking/healing.

    I have a warlock as one of my alts and I could see choosing between Shadowfury, and Nether Protection as an interesting choice. Neither is going to directly increase my dps but both provide useful utility in both PvP and raids. I could also see things like IMP soul leach having their personal benefit separated from the raid buff by either just removing it or moving it into a separate talent. Do I take this useful but possibly redundant raid buff talent for 1 point or pick up one of the previously mentioned talents. These are interesting and meaningful choices that won't have a cookie cutter, this is the best dps option.

    With out having seen the talent tree's it's hard to condemn them as being either pointless or cookie cutter.

  10. #670
    Sounds like it could be the best thing blizzard has done in a long time, i'm all for this.

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by evan_s View Post
    I think there is room for "interesting" talent choices that don't have to impact your dps/tanking/healing.

    I have a warlock as one of my alts and I could see choosing between Shadowfury, and Nether Protection as an interesting choice. Neither is going to directly increase my dps but both provide useful utility in both PvP and raids. I could also see things like IMP soul leach having their personal benefit separated from the raid buff by either just removing it or moving it into a separate talent. Do I take this useful but possibly redundant raid buff talent for 1 point or pick up one of the previously mentioned talents. These are interesting and meaningful choices that won't have a cookie cutter, this is the best dps option.

    With out having seen the talent tree's it's hard to condemn them as being either pointless or cookie cutter.
    Well, let's take your example. You say Shadowfury and Nether Protection.. You have that choice to make right now. Both of those are available. And what happens? Every destro pvp lock will have both. And neither destro pve lock will have Nether Protection and most of them will have Shadowfury because it's only 1 point so you are not losing much even if it's useful only in certain encounters. Do you understand now?

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Alsmir View Post
    First of all, there seem to be many ppl saying that it will make leveling more fun and enjoyable, but I couldn't care less. I'd rather have one class that I'm playing for a long time I know that class and its mechanics well and I can actually play it both in pvp and pve at decent level. I don't want to reroll every patch, like many ppl do.

    Secondly I liked having a choice when specing my character. I've spent thousands of gold on respecs and tested carefully every single talent my character has just to be able to use them efficiently. I hate the idea of dumbing down WoW just to please some new customers.
    Omfg this is great. You expect us to believe you went out and respeced hundreds of times to figure out what talents were best?? I mean EJ does exist for a reason. Hell testing like this would be so impractical there isn't even a shadow of a doubt that you got any useful results from it, even though I doubt you ever did to begin with.

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Fichek View Post
    Well, let's take your example. You say Shadowfury and Nether Protection.. You have that choice to make right now. Both of those are available. And what happens? Every destro pvp lock will have both. And neither destro pve lock will have Nether Protection and most of them will have Shadowfury because it's only 1 point so you are not losing much even if it's useful only in certain encounters. Do you understand now?
    Actually the 2 top cookie cutter Destruction specs don't have Shadowfury because they take too much of a loss taking a point from either IMP Soul Leach or Uhholy power. Generally, the only time you do see Shadowfury in PvE is when Destruction locks need to take Suppression for the hit and are left with a couple spare talents there. Anyway it was just an example of the types of choices that could be "interesting", in my opinion, but aren't going to be something that aren't going to affect your dps to lead to a cookie cutter "best" dps spec.

  14. #674
    I can't vouch for rogues since mine is only a level 35 but my lock has never relied on Soul Link unless I either went with my 29/42/0 build so I could solo instances for rep/mount farming or if I used it for some pvp builds. I assume that comment was geared towards arena and pvp because the only time I see people pick up Soul Link are instances like those or if they are demo.

    *EDIT* Oh, and as far as the talents go, I am very interested in seeing how this works. I either seeing this being total win or complete fail. Personally, I am hoping this ends up being amazing and living up to Blizz's expectations. I do like that they are actually giving players core abilities to their trees at lover levels. About time! (Now just fix lock aggro for real this time and I will be happy)
    Last edited by insertuseralias; 2010-07-08 at 07:13 PM.

  15. #675
    I'm wondering if we will have all our talent points refunded or I'll need to pay 5g in order to respec...

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    I think this is a huge mistake and takes alot from the the game. Forcing ppl to spec into just one tree is potential game killer. How many healers? You are litterally forcing ppl that want to play healers to spec something else for long portion of the game. Instead of allowing them to spec healing and pick some decent dmg hybrid combos.

    From my perspective... it makes WOW even more of a themepark... Its not like devs needed to control the first 40 levels ? The control is needed in the latter 40....

    The potential of damgaging the balance of healer - tank - dps balance is huge IMO. Blizzard is forcing ppl to play DPS for the start. Its not like dps ppl were needed in this game?
    Did you even read the posts?
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler (Blue Tracker)
    Right. If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Fichek View Post
    Well, let's take your example. You say Shadowfury and Nether Protection.. You have that choice to make right now. Both of those are available. And what happens? Every destro pvp lock will have both. And neither destro pve lock will have Nether Protection and most of them will have Shadowfury because it's only 1 point so you are not losing much even if it's useful only in certain encounters. Do you understand now?
    With Imp Gun spec and ISL Spec (the top 2 go-to pve specs for destro locks) you don't pick up either Shadowfury or NP. People only really pick up Shadowflame for pve in 3 cases.

    1) Your group lacks stuns/cc and the RL asked you grab it.
    2) You're grinding/farming and want a CC for whatever reason.
    3) Or the most likely scenerio, you went with the suppression spec because you don't have the gear to be hit capped without it yet and you need something for filler for those extra points in that spec (which you said).

    In hindsight, outside of pvp you are rarely using that talent so imho it's a wasted talent. I would rather put the 1 point into Soul Leech for a little heals here and there. Also with the rate people get gear now, there really isn't much point to grabbing the hit spec for a prolonged period of time. Personally, that's what gems, chants, spriests, and boomies are for! lol

  18. #678
    Herald of the Titans Kuja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    City of Judgement
    Posts
    2,927
    666 comments :O

    i hope retris don't have to go into holy or prot tree to pick up talents which do not increase dps after this

  19. #679
    Scarab Lord Azalu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,770
    All I see is, if the talent for +15% crit chance with pennance and smite stays. Leveling my disc priest is gonna be a walk in the park with Pennance at 10

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazuun View Post
    31 point trees. And we will be force do spend all 31 talent points to be able to put them in another one. So for me it seems that now there will be no "builds" because you will have to complete one tree in 100%. So where are the differences between PvP and PvE builds? In my equipment?
    When they say "31-point trees" they don't mean that there's exactly 31 points worth of talents in the entire tree. They mean it will take 31 points to get to the bottom of the tree. Also, you completely ignored/skipped/raged-past the part where GC states that each talent now ranges from 1-3 points each, and each tree has 20-30 talents each. That means that unless every talent (barring a single 2-point talent) is a one point talent, you can't max a tree with only 31 points.
    Last edited by Arandmoor; 2010-07-08 at 07:55 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •