Why do ppl like Mary sues, but hate dynamic characters

[Taiki420]

A lot of people hate Knaak and Rhonin for that. Also, his writing is terrible.

I still can't grasp this opinion, as everytime I put Stormrage down, I could not wait until I could get back to read more.
I also felt the book should have been much longer. The climax was pushed a bit far back towards the end of the book, but it was still a GREAT book!

[saberon]

I hate Garrosh as a character. He's a hot-headed, short-sighted, egotistical moron.

I love Garrosh as a plot device. WAAAAAR!

[Deleted]

I still can't grasp this opinion, as everytime I put Stormrage down, I could not wait until I could get back to read more.
I also felt the book should have been much longer. The climax was pushed a bit far back towards the end of the book, but it was still a GREAT book!

You're entitled to your own opinion. I for one can't stand Knaak's writing style, especially how he goes into incredible detail describing things (*ahem* form switching in Stormrage). This has the same effect to my enjoyment of a book like a sledgehammer has on someone's face.

I also don't like how he always has a character already on death's door and they just give the very last remainder of their power to save the ones they love... then another danger appears and again they're able to defeat it. It feels to me that the character was just joking around and feigning weakness all along. Another thing: I seriously hate it when some character sacrifices everything... just to get it back better and shinier in the end. Ammmm, how's that a sacrifice? I'm mostly refering to Teldrassil here.

I could go on, but I think I got my point across anyhow.

[Wildberry]

Rhonin is a mary sue, he's a terribly written character and I hate him just as much as I hate Richard A. Knaak

Jaina is a terrible character too, she was ok in WC3 but now it's just ugh

Thrall was great in Lord of the Clans and WC3, but now he's too friendly to the alliance.

As for Varian Wrynn I hate him too...although I'm horde and have been since WC1 so I guess that may be why

And I honestly don't see why people hate Garrosh, all I see from the idiots is "QQ Garrosh is going to war with an obvious enemy, he's such a hotheaded maniac!"

[Elementium]

Well.. Characters with complexity are..complex. This is a game with massive amounts of players and while many of us lore fans understand why rhonin is stupid and why Thall is awesome.. the masses don't understand. It's like The Terminator vs Edgar Allen Poe. Who's more awesome?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I like garrosh "let's get in that ass" approach to basically everything. I also like Grom more than Thrall in WC3 and wished he would have survived and let thrall die... That would def. put the WAR back in warcraft

a very short one
in the last level where jaina then thrall then the nightelves are attacked, with grom instead of thrall it would have happened like this:
jaina: "archimond is attacking come to our aid"
grom: "this is our chance, strike now!" whereupon they attack the humans and dwarves (and 1 or two elves) from behind kill them, and then get owned by the burning legion which proceeds to eat the world tree.
yes it would have been more interesting certainly..

[Bryrida]

I believe you don't know what a Mary Sue is. Let me elaborate.

A Mary Sue or Marty Sue if it is a male needs to have the following "qualities" to be considered as such:

1) they have a tragic past.
2) every plot revolves around the mary sue
3) everbody loves Mary sue except for the villain who hates mary sue but for all the wrong reasons.
4) they are usually 'the chosen one'.
5) they have funny or otherwise hilarious flaws that makes everybody giggle in sheer delight.
6) mary sues come equipped with tools (or in WoW magics/blessings) for every situation.
7) they are too good for the evils of the world.

and there are many more. If you search up what has been established as canon by the makers of the story, Jaina, Thrall and Rhonin qualify for all stated 7 facts without flaw.
That makes them a mary sue and that is what I utterly hate and dislike about them.

So Paladins are Mary Sues?

[roboscorcher]

I like Thrall because he instantly dispells the myth that the Horde is evil. New players usually don't know that the Horde does have honor, and Thrall is a good symbol of honor.

Of course, another reason why players love Thrall is that they played as him in WC3. This sort of character affection applies even to tragic characters such as Arthas. This attachment occurs by experiencing the character's decisions, regardless of their outcomes. WE were Thrall, so we love Thrall. Oddly enough, killing the LK in ICC kind of felt like killing myself.

[Tigercat]

Funny how I knew before opening this thread part of it would be "y u no liek garrosh hurr"

[eillas]

How is Thrall in any way a mary sue? People love Thrall because he's an awesome, dynamic character. Hes got his flaws, but he also gives us plenty of reasons to identify with him, to root for him, and to call him our Warchief =D. Just like Varian gives (at least us horde players)us plenty of reasons to hate him -- he's vengeful, he's , and he's just downright racist (he is an Azerothian Human after all).

I think the reason horde players don't like Garrosh (or at least the idea of him leading the Horde) is because he's too 'old-horde' and he's scarily similar to our enemy, Varian. I've always been a little confused about Garrosh's character arc... I would've never guessed Garrosh would be the orc he is today based on how he's portrayed in BC... but that's just me (or maybe I just don't remember those quests right).

If he was racist why does he have a blood elf as an advisor and a gaurd to his only son

[Alraml]

Garrosh is still a work in progress. Maybe the finished article will be fantastic. But I do like Varian

[Flaks]

I don't like the others but like Thrall mostly cause his storyline was so well developed to get him to the point where he is now.

They have plenty of characters to bring about some storyline twists but after the failure in ICC I don't know what I expect. I honestly wouldn't mind them creating a character who is more in the 'grey' area like Garrosh. His story's coming up really nice though really slowly which is why people are iffy about him.

So having read the replies so far what I'm understanding is that Blizzard did an absolutely amazing job developing characters in their RTS warcraft series but WoW, as an MMO and coupled with bad writers trying to help develop the storyline further, managed to not only get the major RTS characters out of the loop but destroyed their stories as well as involving fragmented and not-thought-out stories of new characters.

TL;DR: WoW is destroying warcraft lore.

[Hypernetic]

A good example of one of Thrall's flaws is the handling of the Forsaken pre-Wrathgate. The plague wasn't a huge secret, after all. It was like he consciously decided to ignore it.

Garrosh acted like a little bitch in BC and was referred to as 'the impotent leader.' From this, you'd have thought if we saw him again he'd still be pathetic, but suddenly now he's like LOK'TAR OGAR! LET'S KILL SOME HUMANSSS! ..and it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why? Because his father did? I fail to understand Garrosh's logic for wanting to kill him some humans. As far as I know, he has no justifiable reason for it, other than, y'know, Varian declaring war.

Yeah, Garrosh. Let's just rush into battle without thinking things through first. Good idea, moron.

Well two things. One, the whole ToC incident (Fizzlebang and faction champs.)

Two, nobody is rushing into battle. The Horde and Alliance have been at war for many years. Some of the horde and alliance's greatest champions were off fighting the Lich King, Kael'thas, Illidan, etc, but the war still raged. Basically, while our characters were off saving the world from evil, our factions were still fighting in a bitter and bloody war. Look to the gunship battle for proof of this, or battlegrounds, or just anywhere in the world where horde and alliance share a zone.

[VanquishersFate82]

You people are weird. lol. GARROSH FOR PRESI, GONNA KILL SOME SCUM.

[Gamon the Brave]

I don't have flaws.

[warcrimes]

according to the comics thrall shot a necropolis out of the sky with one lighting bolt
so all the garrosh fanboys fill me in on how garrosh can top that?
and saying varian is a mary sue did you stop to wonder where he was before he came back in wrath?
his story is easily one of the most dynamic in the game imo

[darkwarrior42]

why do people hate mary sue characters (characters who has no flaws) while hate on characters who are dynamic and add to the story line and can develope over time within the story
Thrall,Jiana....Rhonin(cause i had to say) all mary sue characters
*snip*
why luv thrall he can no longer add to the plot unless we kill the faction system and make 1 super faction with him leading which would suck overall

I'm not sure I can actually provide an answer to your question that you listen to, because you have made so many assumptions here that anything I say you're likely to ignore or disregard out of hand, but here we go anyways... and these are all simply my opinions, make of them what you will.

Saying a character cannot add to the plotline is silly. The plotline develops in reaction to events in the world, or the actions of other characters. I like Thrall because he seeks to protect his people and preserve their strength and honor... but without giving in to the same evils that consumed the Orcs in the past. To say he has no flaws is erroneous; for one, he's naming Garrosh as warchief :-P (sorry, had to say it).

I dislike Garrosh not because he's a flawed character, but because he's simply stupid. He doesn't act with any kind of logic or reason, only a blind desire to kill anyone that could even remotely be an enemy. Thrall wanted to avoid conflict with the Alliance because he knew that it led to a poor end for BOTH sides, but when the battle was joined, he joined without hesitation, and laid low all those who opposed him. Jaina wants to avoid war because she knows that it is possible to do so, and that war will weaken both sides. Varian actively desires war; thus, I dislike him, because I don't want a leader that is inherently evil.

You comment that any alliance that hates Varian "want to be care bear story where every 1 holds hands and gets along and allows bs to happen...". Leaving aside the poor grammar and phrasing (unless English isn't your first language, in which case I apologize), you're assuming that there are only two options: Alliance who desire war, and Alliance who desire peace. As a player, I want there to be conflict between the factions, as that is fundamental to the game world and promotes a more interesting gaming experience. As a character, my paladin wants to avoid war, as it necessitates death, misery, and suffering for everyone involved on both sides. The solution is to have a war develop where there is true justification for at least one side; self-defense, necessity, survival, something along those lines. Instead, we have a situation where both Garrosh and Varian want war because the other side deserves to die or something... in the end, it will lead to both the Alliance and the Horde being inherently evil (if you can even argue that the Alliance isn't already).

Imagine them doing what the trailer promised: the world after the Cataclysm is so devoid of resources that it simply cannot support the 12 races of the Alliance and the Horde the way they currently exist. Some, like Thrall and Jaina, will desperately seek a way to end the resource shortage to try and avert war. Varian Wrynn could look at the suffering of his people, and take those actions he considers necessary to end that suffering; namely, eliminate those who have resources needed by the Alliance. Garrosh Hellscream could take the same action at the same time, leading to natural conflict where both factions fight to ensure their own survival, regardless of the cost. Neither side would truly be evil, only driven by desperation, and of course there's enough bad blood between the factions that neither side would probably argue to much on the whole. As a paladin, I might not like the idea of killing Horde who have done no wrong, but if the situation were phrased as a choice between letting the innocent in Stormwind die, or killing the soldiers of the Horde to sieze necessary resources.... I don't think my character would do it, but I could see it happening without too much difficulty.


But none of that is what we're getting. We're getting Garrosh's "RAWR! DEATH TO ANYONE I DON'T LIKE! WAR, DEATH, SUFFERING, KILL!!!", and Varian's "HORDE IZ BAD, I IZ MAD, VENGEANCE WILL BE MINE!!!" Yes, I exaggerate, simply to illustrate the point.


As for your other points.... "adding to the plot" doesn't mean "supports your side". If Garrosh and Varian add to the plot, they do so regardless of whether you're Alliance or Horde. Thrall and Jaina are seeking to try and broker some sort of peace between the factions because they recognize the benefits of peace, and without that cooperation in the past, both factions would currently be dead or enslaved. They see the war between the factions growing, and know that any outside force can use that war to its advantage (say, Deathwing depleting the world's resources to provoke war between the factions so that both the Horde and the Alliance are weakened, so that when he launches his penultimate attack, neither side is strong enough to resist), so they do what they can to avert that. If done right, all 4 people mentioned in this post will be integral to the growing plotline... I just don't have much confidence in Blizzard's ability to develop Varian/Garrosh in a way that makes them respectable leaders, and not just warmongers blind to the pain they bring to their own people.

Rhonin's another issue entirely, one that I'm not going to touch on here :-P