Simplified Stats

[Winfernal]

Sorry grammar nazi, I'll try harder next time, I've been up for a while now and am sort of typing fast without thinking so I can get to bed in 15 minutes. I normally do care about the difference between, their, there, they're, your, you're etc. But i'm not worried right now.

OT: I'm not being tunnel visioned at all, I do agree a change in talents will be a nice change, but reducing them to 31p trees is a little drastic and removes the room for error. It is easy enough to differentiate between a good player and a bad player, even without gs. A players spec tells a lot, if someone wants to join your ICC 10 pug and their spec has a talent that slows movement speed and they specced into it as a pve'er. I'm pretty sure you can tell they are a scrub. Why should blizzard remove the option of failure? People should learn how to get better, not just keep doing bad and not look to change. I know after I saw I was low on dmg meters I looked around and improved. If people don't have the motivation to do that, then they don't deserve to get carried and have their shit simplified.

Error? When you specc today, you follow the stream. Go find cookie cutter specs on Elitist Jerks, and you are good to go.

Few people are speccing like your example there...
They must either be new to the game, terrible at english or not that smart.

This game is static now, its getting old. Therefore, changes!

True, quite a few people can't differ then from than. I'm looking at YOU! beta club

I admit that my english skills are low. But the MMO-Champions forum is certainly not the place to learn it!
Back to school i guess.

But it's OK, or is it?

And Im Norwegian, our stereotype sucks at English

[Direshadow]

Today, even 2 people with similar specs, and very close gear/gearscore and geming. There is still a huge variation from player to player, and a druid in similar gear as me might have very different numbers for their critical strike chance, armor penetration, hit rating, attack power, and other stats. No 2 players are alike. But with the simplified stats, it seems like everyone is going to look similar, and with a lot of gems being changed and removed, a lot of classes who originally used armor pen etc, will now be just geming mastery if possible.

I expect a lot of people to all look the same in cataclysm. If you have this piece of gear, and someone else has the same piece your the same since both will probably be geming the exact same thing. Also, with the changes to talent trees, blizzard themselves have stated it does remove a few variations in the talent trees, therefore removing a lot of not even viable specs. So basically, they removed any room for error. Seems like the game is way to simplified now.

I know this comes off as a QQ I want more numbers thread etc, but its not, its starting a topic that people can discuss their opinions on, enjoy. What do you guys think about this?

If you compare Cataclysm's ability score sysgtem to Dungeon and Dragon's, you'll find that there are a lot of simularities. Both rely on a single base number which have benafits sprouting from that number. If you have a 300 str rating in WoW and you up that number, your character hits things harder. In D&D, if you have a 17 Str and you up the number, you get the same result.

The same applies to the other Cataclysm scores, and in fact, sometimes more complex things happen. Int gives you more mana AND crit, Agi affects your attack power AND your crit, Spirit defines in some trees how much spell power you have AS WELL as how much mana you regnerate, etc.

What I find hilarious is that despite these striking simularities, people bitch about how "simple" the game has become when Dungeons and Dragons is by far one of the most complex role playing games out there and it seems that Cataclysm's system relates to it in many ways.

My point?

STOP BITCHING and try to look at the big picture. Also play more RPGS then the ones that flash on screen with bright colours to amuse you with when you become bored with the text that actually tries to tell the story.

[Kilpi]

Too simplified now? Well, at least it's not "increases chance to critically hit by x%" like in Vanilla, don't you think.. And how does this change how people look? Gems actually change the character's appearance? Haven't notice..

[dHero]

"...typing fast without thinking..."

This pretty much sums up all your posts in this thread.
Your arguments are hilarious and stupid. Also, how can you be so sure that they are removing the room for error before even seeing the new talent trees?
Even a terribad can google up a proper spec, so your logic kinda fails, sure you might be able to sort some of the terribads, but hardly all of them and who does PUG raids anyways?

[Deleted]

Lets see. We have 1 druid spec, 2 warrior specs, 2 rogue specs(although one of those is almost never used in PvE), 1 death knight spec and 1 hunter spec. Thats 7 total. Out of 30 in the game. Barely 25%.
You also completely forgot retribution paladins, which do not like ArP at all.

You also completely missed the point on the complexity of ArPen. Before Blizzard outright told us, nobody knew how it really worked.
And how to get to the cap does not tell you wether or not getting to the cap is actually a good idea for your character. To find wether you should pursue that path requires at lot more complex calculations.

1 druid, 2 deathknight (blood and frost), 2 rogue, 2 warrior and 2 hunter (mm and sv), 9 out of 30 different trees, but out of dps weapon swingers its 9 of 14.

arpen is not complex, blizzard need not clarify how it works cause it was stated in the charscreen althought 100% not being 100% on the target is irritating - thats why there is also stated its up to a maximum amount.

getting to the cap being good is also no big deal, are you dealing more than 50% of your damage physical? then arp is winwin, if you deal more than 50% elemental arp is nogo

[The Ogdru Jahad]

so if you're a feral druid and an item drops and let's say it has less arp than the current item in slot, but had a lot more agility. you're telling me at a glance u can calculate weather or not that +agi gain outweighs the arp loss in a timely fashion as to not hold up the loot distribution? have you even seen all the real theorycrafting on feral druids and arp vs agi? i'm pretty sure you're a joke.

I can open up microsoft calculator, take my current armor pen subtract what I'll lose by equipping the new piece, and see how many agility gems I'll need to replace in order to still be capped. That takes me about 45 seconds, and I'd be working on the calculations before it got raid rolled.

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 09:14 AM ----------

This pretty much sums up all your posts in this thread.
Your arguments are hilarious and stupid. Also, how can you be so sure that they are removing the room for error before even seeing the new talent trees?
Even a terribad can google up a proper spec, so your logic kinda fails, sure you might be able to sort some of the terribads, but hardly all of them and who does PUG raids anyways?

I think about everything I say before I say it, stop pulling things out of your ass to find and use against someone when you yourself aren't using the best grammar ever. By the typign fast without thinking statement, I mean paying attention to grammar. Stop taking things out of context idiot.

[Banky.Edwards]

I can open up microsoft calculator, take my current armor pen subtract what I'll lose by equipping the new piece, and see how many agility gems I'll need to replace in order to still be capped. That takes me about 45 seconds, and I'd be working on the calculations before it got raid rolled.

assuming you're arp capped from gear alone, what if you're not and u have no agi gems to swap out. does X amount of agility outweigh X amount of arp loss? and pulling out a calculator mid raid is a clear example of not being able to make judgment "at a glance".

[The Ogdru Jahad]

assuming you're arp capped from gear alone, what if you're not and u have no agi gems to swap out. does X amount of agility outweigh X amount of arp loss? and pulling out a calculator mid raid is a clear example of not being able to make judgment "at a glance".

Its impossible to be arp capped from gear alone. l2reasearch. I'm arp capped with my trinket proc. So I have many agility gems to replace if I replace a piece of gear with less armor pen than the old piece. Also taking a calculator out which takes all of 2 seconds as its on the start bar is smart, and not just like omg epic that is higher item lvl, s00per upgrade ima need roll it!!! Yayyy! I guess that is how you do it in your pugs though.

[dHero]

I think about everything I say before I say it, stop pulling things out of your ass to find and use against someone when you yourself aren't using the best grammar ever. By the typign fast without thinking statement, I mean paying attention to grammar. Stop taking things out of context idiot.

I never claimed to be good at English or the English grammar rules, I dont see why you're so hung up about this? I merely made a ridiculous statement to match yours. I know very well what you meant, but taking it out of context showed you what everyone else was thinking about your posts. Way to avoid the other part of my reply though. Stop calling people idiots all the time, it's harsh.

Ahwell, have fun with this thread, I wont be bothered anymore. You wanted to start a discussion, yet you went into a defensive mode feeling the need to defend your beliefs to the very end - with an arsenal of insults as backup.

[Direshadow]

Players heads should be how they're going to dominate a battleground how how to exacute the best strategy for taking down a raid boss, not in a series of complex math equations that only add up to being "good enough" for content.

Yes there should be descision making but once the player has to actually close down wow and launch a scientific calculator in order to make that descision, then it shows the developers have failed.

People who pride themselves on being number cruchers to best gear out their night elf wizard are sad and need to stop.

JUST STOP.

[huth]

1 druid, 2 deathknight (blood and frost), 2 rogue, 2 warrior and 2 hunter (mm and sv), 9 out of 30 different trees, but out of dps weapon swingers its 9 of 14.

arpen is not complex, blizzard need not clarify how it works cause it was stated in the charscreen althought 100% not being 100% on the target is irritating - thats why there is also stated its up to a maximum amount.

getting to the cap being good is also no big deal, are you dealing more than 50% of your damage physical? then arp is winwin, if you deal more than 50% elemental arp is nogo

It's not that simple. Firstly, ArP is being replaced by a stat that affects all classes. Second, there is no stat equal to ArP for non-weapon swingers, so it's still 9 out of 30. For all except those 9 specs, there is 1 stat less to consider.
And ArP isn't that terribly great for frost or SV either.

Blizzard had to clarify ArPen before people finally started figuring out that it was actually any good and that it might be a good idea to get to the cap ASAP if it is usefull for you. Before that, nobody knew for sure what it really did.
That's the very point why removing it doesn't actually simplify the game... most of you don't do the brunt of the math involved in ArP anyway. You just look it up in guides.

And wether or not stacking ArP is a good idea depends not only on how much nonphysical and bleed damage you deal, but also on what kind of equipment you have.

[quez]

Like others have said, bad will still be bads. Saw a fury warrior a moment ago with only +hit and +str&+hit gems, including a hit trinket -_-, he was probably in the 450+ hit range.

I think it's good that stats like ArP goes away, a lot of people didn't even now how it worked.
I believe it has gone to far when you have to rely on a spreadsheet to know if item A is better then item B.

The "warriors should only use plate" mechanic they've implanted looks really promising as well, as well as "STR = warrior/dk/pala, agi = hunter/rogue..." etc

Deciding wherever a 264 neck with agi, crit, ap and arp was better then a 264 neck with str, crit, socket and arp for a fury warrior could be close to impossible to know for sure without a spreadsheet (+- 20dps differences).

TL;DR: I think simplified stats is a great change.

[Banky.Edwards]

Its impossible to be arp capped from gear alone. l2reasearch. I'm arp capped with my trinket proc. So I have many agility gems to replace if I replace a piece of gear with less armor pen than the old piece. Also taking a calculator out which takes all of 2 seconds as its on the start bar is smart, and not just like omg epic that is higher item lvl, s00per upgrade ima need roll it!!! Yayyy! I guess that is how you do it in your pugs though.

lol assuming i pug. the feral druid thing was just an example. needing a calculator to judge gear was something blizzard stated they wanted to sway away from. all things aside, we still haven't even seen the revised talent trees and things can still change so why even care.

seriously, you seem to care so much about other people and what they do or don't do. are you paying their subscription fees? if not, you really have no business caring about how people you don't know suck.

[ComputerNerd]

The stats simplification was long overdue.
How many players could actually look at an item with varying amounts of attack power and armor penetration and decide which is the better without resorting to theorycrafting or an addon ?
Very few and there is the problem.
Blizzard want players to be able to "eyeball" an item, and make a reasonable decision as to whether it is an upgrade or not without the need for number generating addons or 3rd party tools.
You can look at gear and know who it is aimed at.
Theorycrafting will have its place still, but it won't be a required chore for pretty much any progressing raider.

[Psychos]

All that's being removed from the game is MP5 and Defense. Why are you talking about Armor Pen and Hit Rating? Armor pen will still exist it just won't be on items.

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 02:32 PM ----------

The stats simplification was long overdue.
How many players could actually look at an item with varying amounts of attack power and armor penetration and decide which is the better without resorting to theorycrafting or an addon ?
Very few and there is the problem.
Blizzard want players to be able to "eyeball" an item, and make a reasonable decision as to whether it is an upgrade or not without the need for number generating addons or 3rd party tools.
You can look at gear and know who it is aimed at.
Theorycrafting will have its place still, but it won't be a required chore for pretty much any progressing raider.

And this.

[The Ogdru Jahad]

lol assuming i pug. the feral druid thing was just an example. needing a calculator to judge gear was something blizzard stated they wanted to sway away from. all things aside, we still haven't even seen the revised talent trees and things can still change so why even care.

seriously, you seem to care so much about other people and what they do or don't do. are you paying their subscription fees? if not, you really have no business caring about how people you don't know suck.

I like the people who spend more time improving themselves in game and striving to be the best player than can be. The people who don't want to put any more effort than logging on doing 5 dailys and a couple random dungeons shouldn't be the ones who dictate how easy or simplified the game becomes.

I like that people who spend more time, get a greater reward. People who don't do jack sh*t shouldn't be the ones determining if a stat such as armor pen is simplified. Blizzard shouldn't make it so you don't need to put in a little extra effort outside of the game to do well. I think it is good for people to have the option of taking the game to another level and using spreadsheets etc to do better. It lets the people work harder to do better, work = reward. Little to no work = no reward. It should be like that. I'm logging for the night, idc what you all say, I think the change is stupid to put it bluntly. Have a good night.

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 09:34 AM ----------

All that's being removed from the game is MP5 and Defense. Why are you talking about Armor Pen and Hit Rating? Armor pen will still exist it just won't be on items.

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 02:32 PM ----------



And this.

If you read my first post on this thread you'd know what I'm talking about. QFT.

[Wyrmking]

I can open up microsoft calculator, take my current armor pen subtract what I'll lose by equipping the new piece, and see how many agility gems I'll need to replace in order to still be capped. That takes me about 45 seconds, and I'd be working on the calculations before it got raid rolled.

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 09:14 AM ----------



I think about everything I say before I say it, stop pulling things out of your ass to find and use against someone when you yourself aren't using the best grammar ever. By the typign fast without thinking statement, I mean paying attention to grammar. Stop taking things out of context idiot.

Are you crazy bitch? I don't want alt+tab and open up a calculator in the middle of a raid.

[Higgi]

You just look it up in guides.

Exactly the point of the Arp removal. It removes a little of the dependence on "professional" theorycrafting. It makes comparing items on the fly much easier if do not have to pull out a chart (or memorize your current arp:ap/agi:ap ratios from a spreadsheet) every time to get an at least approximate impression of the difference between the two items.
Ok, that is not really the main point. That is still the balancing issues of Arp in relation to every other stat in the game which even can translate into balancing issues between Arp users and non Arp users.

[Winfernal]

Are you crazy bitch? I don't want alt+tab and open up a calculator in the middle of a raid.

hahahah, made me laugh

[darkwarrior42]

What exactly is changing with stats again?

-Melee (Strength) DPS: Losing armor penetration, gaining mastery
-Melee/Ranged (Agility) DPS: Losing attack power (meaningless, scales with item level anyways), losing intellect (if enhancement, and no sane enhancement shaman seeks out intellect, so meaningless), losing armor penetration, gaining mastery
-Caster DPS, Mage/Warlock: Losing Spirit, gaining mastery
-Caster DPS, Shaman/Druid: Trading Hit for Spirit (spirit-to-hit conversion talent), losing mp5 (oh no!), gaining mastery
-Caster DPS, Priest: Gaining Mastery
-Healer: Losing mp5, gaining spirit (this is applicable even to druids + holy priest, who wont' get stuck with mp5 rings/necks anymore), gaining mastery
-Tank, DK: Losing defense rating, gaining mastery
-Tank, Druid: losing defense rating (only found on jewelry for druids, and I'm sure they'll be glad not to be stuck with it anymore), Gaining mastery
-Tank, Shield: Losing block value (this is replaced by nothing, but I consider it a worthy sacrifice in the name of a shield that's actually useful against raid bosses), losing defense rating, gaining mastery.

Summary: Discounting stats whose absence isn't going to change anything or will actually help things, at worst a class will have as many stats to stack in cataclysm as they do now. In a few cases, they'll have more.

As far as the talents go, I don't really see a point to having talents that are, by their nature, worthless. They've already commented that there will still be PvP vs. PvE builds, and I'm sure that as soon as we see finalized versions of the talent trees, we'll have optimal builds for both realms in a couple of days. You'll still be able to tell who really knows what they're doing, the only difference that I can see is that if you stuck with someone who doesn't while using the LFD, you won't be penalized quite as much.