Worgen beating Forsaken ass in Silverpine

[Lightfist]

forced necromancy and enslavement is but necromancy can as the ebon blade has shown be used for good.
a tool is a tool its the one who uses it for good or ill.

The Ebon Blade either use former members of the Scourge, or soulless Ghouls.

Forsaken, and most Scourge, had souls trapped in them.

Resurrected Forsaken would have souls.

[MortalWombat]

Don't worry guys Oxhorn and Staghelm will become tauren paladins and bring Mortuus to justice. Lacy also becomes a paladin, and her undead cow babies become death knights. The fight will be epic! Well not Sylvannas she will spend the whole time trying to kill them only to keep failing. Because I would be more worried if I was the guy next to her kill target than being her kill target.

[Lightfist]

Don't worry guys Oxhorn and Staghelm will become tauren paladins and bring Mortuus to justice. Lacy also becomes a paladin, and her undead cow babies become death knights. The fight will be epic! Well not Sylvannas she will spend the whole time trying to kill them only to keep failing. Because I would be more worried if I was the guy next to her kill target than being her kill target.

I don't think Mortuus cares for the grand Forsaken scheme. He just wants to pwn noobs and rofl at them.

[MortalWombat]

I don't think Mortuus cares for the grand Forsaken scheme. He just wants to pwn noobs and rofl at them.

Which is why he is not allowed to die with Sylvanas! DO YOU HEAR MY BLIZZARD! Hope they read MMOchampion =(

[DrPancake]

Inter arma enim silent leges imo

Including Moral Law.

[Aldarc]

I could see your point if the Forsaken's situation was worse instead of just different, but it's not.

For that matter, not all Forsaken are evil. Look at Leonid Barthalomew the Revered. Same process, different outcome.

Here is what I think that the problem boils down to being: you want to apply a value judgment as to which case is "worse." The problem is that there is no way to measure the severity between the two cases. It's about as fruitful as arguing about which of two rape victims had it worse. Furthermore, there are plenty of individual variances in both cases. How many Forsaken have we seen? Plenty. How many Frostmourne Souls have we talked with? Two? Do we know how bitter these other souls are? Again, these souls face a different scenario than with the Forsaken. But it is possible to analyze and try to rationally understand how the causal circumstances produced different psychological responses to their environmental stimuli. Furthermore, it is also more than possible to label most of the Forsaken as evil, which they are, while also being sympathetic to the plight of their particular set of circumstances that led to this development.

The same argument can be presented for Leonid and his relation to the rest of the Forsaken. Leonid is an individual with his own set of prior experience and beliefs, who is bombarded by various external stimuli (e.g., undeath, Forsaken freedom, etc.). He believes that undeath can be cured. This already makes him an outlier from the prevailing view held by the aggregate whole of the Forsaken. But at some point along the line with the Forsaken, a different path presents itself to Leonid than presented to the aggregate whole of the rest of the Forsaken. Since he believes that undeath can be cured, he allies with the Argent Dawn in hope that his "malady" can be cured. This may have happened early in the development of the Forsaken. So he is gone. And while he is gone, the rest of the Forsaken are faced with different stimuli that sets them on a particular path different than Leonid with the Argent Dawn. While there may have been more individuals who believed undeath could be cured, like Leonid, earlier in Forsaken history, this view became increasingly rare over time. This is probably why we are now seeing more Forsaken now in Northrend and Cataclysm who try to live with (no pun intended) their state of undeath as a uncurable reality.

Someone earlier raised a particularly good question, and to paraphrase: if undeath is an abominable curse, then shouldn't they want to be killed and thereby released from their state of undeath? Again, good question. I have pondered this many times, and this is what I now believe. The Forsaken are a paradoxical (sub-)race driven by two conflicting desires that are brought about by their dual natures. On the one hand, their state of undeath acts a form of torture, a hollowed reflection of the lives they once lived. They hate it. It eats at them. They want to die and be released. On the other hand, they have free will as a result of being Forsaken, and somehow part of that free will involves the drive/instinct/will (whatever) to live, self-preservation, and survival. That is the inherent paradox of the Forsaken: self-loathers compelled by self-preservation.

[Lightfist]

Here is what I think that the problem boils down to being: you want to apply a value judgment as to which case is "worse." The problem is that there is no way to measure the severity between the two cases. It's about as fruitful as arguing about which of two rape victims had it worse. Furthermore, there are plenty of individual variances in both cases. How many Forsaken have we seen? Plenty. How many Frostmourne Souls have we talked with? Two? Do we know how bitter these other souls are? Again, these souls face a different scenario than with the Forsaken. But it is possible to analyze and try to rationally understand how the causal circumstances produced different psychological responses to their environmental stimuli. Furthermore, it is also more than possible to label most of the Forsaken as evil, which they are, while also being sympathetic to the plight of their particular set of circumstances that led to this development.

The same argument can be presented for Leonid and his relation to the rest of the Forsaken. Leonid is an individual with his own set of prior experience and beliefs, who is bombarded by various external stimuli (e.g., undeath, Forsaken freedom, etc.). He believes that undeath can be cured. This already makes him an outlier from the prevailing view held by the aggregate whole of the Forsaken. But at some point along the line with the Forsaken, a different path presents itself to Leonid than presented to the aggregate whole of the rest of the Forsaken. Since he believes that undeath can be cured, he allies with the Argent Dawn in hope that his "malady" can be cured. This may have happened early in the development of the Forsaken. So he is gone. And while he is gone, the rest of the Forsaken are faced with different stimuli that sets them on a particular path different than Leonid with the Argent Dawn. While there may have been more individuals who believed undeath could be cured, like Leonid, earlier in Forsaken history, this view became increasingly rare over time. This is probably why we are now seeing more Forsaken now in Northrend and Cataclysm who try to live with (no pun intended) their state of undeath as a uncurable reality.

Someone earlier raised a particularly good question, and to paraphrase: if undeath is an abominable curse, then shouldn't they want to be killed and thereby released from their state of undeath? Again, good question. I have pondered this many times, and this is what I now believe. The Forsaken are a paradoxical (sub-)race driven by two conflicting desires that are brought about by their dual natures. On the one hand, their state of undeath acts a form of torture, a hollowed reflection of the lives they once lived. They hate it. It eats at them. They want to die and be released. On the other hand, they have free will as a result of being Forsaken, and somehow part of that free will involves the drive/instinct/will (whatever) to live, self-preservation, and survival. That is the inherent paradox of the Forsaken: self-loathers compelled by self-preservation.

I won't argue anymore on the point of Teranas, as I think we both just have different opinions on the matter.

I would like to point out, however, that Leonid had a friend named Trevor who also retained his previous demeanor (he may have also freed Princess Calia Menethil, but that's off topic). It's not simply if you believe it's incurable or not.

Am I empathetic to the Forsaken? In a way. My empathy stops, however, when they take out their rage on the Living.

[Aldarc]

I would like to point out, however, that Leonid had a friend named Trevor who also retained his previous demeanor (he may have also freed Princess Calia Menethil, but that's off topic). It's not simply if you believe it's incurable or not.

Of course not, but Leonid had a particular set of prior circumstances that veered him on a particular path, and his views on death were just one of the reasons that allowed for this development. As you say, Trevor is proof that it is possible for others to pursue a similar path as Leonid, but I do not pretend, or treat it as, if Trevor has the same views, starting points, and circumstances as Leonid. (Not to discredit this, but I am somewhat cautious about citing a character from the RPG books, as they tend to be rank fairly low on the canonical hierarchy.)

[Lightfist]

Of course not, but Leonid had a particular set of prior circumstances that veered him on a particular path, and his views on death were just one of the reasons that allowed for this development. As you say, Trevor is proof that it is possible for others to pursue a similar path as Leonid, but I do not pretend, or treat it as, if Trevor has the same views, starting points, and circumstances as Leonid. (Not to discredit this, but I am somewhat cautious about citing a character from the RPG books, as they tend to be rank fairly low on the canonical hierarchy.)

Well, I usually accept them unless contradicted in-game.

If you want another example, however - http://www.wowwiki.com/Captain_Rupert.

[Dessan]

Dog People+Bone People=Bad for the undead.

lol

[sleekit]

Inter arma enim silent leges imo

Including Moral Law.

not really

if that was true we wouldn't have spent history continuously coming up with ways to further distance combatants from the act of killing in order to lessen the mental impact of the act.

ancient langauge or not doesn't mean something has an immutable truth within it.

[MrPixiePants]

Just going to throw out my speculation into this fray.

I'm not in Beta and I stopped playing WoW before the actual ICC Dungeon opened up and I might get back into playing it when Cataclysm comes out, anyway now that everyone here knows my knowledge to an extent is limited I'm seeing things like this.

Garrosh in a whole got off on the wrong foot and part of it is simply because Blizzardvision need to go this route to put the WAR back into Warcraft but from what I've read it seems possibly that one female Taruen poisoned Garrosh's Axe when he struck Cairne Bloodhoof. To my understand the reason why they did this duel was so that he could see if Garrosh was ready to become leader, now I probably have this wrong and I don't have a lot of time to try and find it because I'm going to be late for work, was it not Carine who requested the duel to begin with? Also, from what I heard Vol'jin's anger start when Carine was killed and people presumed Garrosh did it (I believe from what I've read was that they actually found out who did it but it's still up for debate)? I believe... oh before I start believing here, I'm not defending Garrosh or anything like that but simply taking it based off of what I've read from forum boards, videos and such from the Cataclysm information that has been coming through. From the way I'm looking at it Garrosh is trying his best to be the leader of the Horde, on top of Cataclysm he has to prove himself to Thrall, all of the other faction leaders and the people of the Horde, as a whole. Apparently he still has a heart because he apparently flipped when one of his Orc Leaders thought it was a good idea to kill women and children. I know when I'm under pressure and I'm expected to be great things WHILE a trollololol dragon tries to take over the world and kill everyone I have to deal with someone who wants to be the next Lich King AND now most of the Horde think I'm betraying everyone when a troll Taruen "Plot Device" poisoned my axe?

Thrall wanted to keep peace, when he handed over the reigns to Garrosh, Garrosh's views of everything around him is someone who was a Emo loser who lived with his mom in the basement LARPing "My Father is Dead: The Game" then Superman comes down from heaven with followers of races he's never seen and that Supermans enemies are my enemies and if I want to impress Superman I better take out the Alliance so we can win!

I'm seeing this story unfolding into something along the lines of Garrosh dieing at the hands of Deathwing and finally being the hero, just like his father saved Thrall when he fought that demon (forget his name)

Also it seems if WoW continues as a game, I think that comic with that Orc/Draenei/Human/Orgy Race kid who knows all of the classes being the new Horde Leader and Varrens son being the new Alliance leader, because Varren sure as hell isn't making his people happy by making more statues.

On the subject of Sylvanas, to me, her story is over and Blizzard now has to figure out whats next for her because Arthas is dead and the Forsaken need something else to fuel their rage.

And also... Inb4 Thrall and Jaine have a babby behind everyones back and spam U Mad? in /General while Garrosh n' Varren and their friends: The Live Action Fan-Ficiton rage and try to kill them or some shit.

[Kyntam]

Ugh, Forsaken becoming what they hate. They hated the Scourge because they killed them and made them undead, and now they do the same. Go Worgens!

[Dayon]

You misspelled "Forsaken beating Worgen ass".

[DrPancake]

not really

if that was true we wouldn't have spent history continuously coming up with ways to further distance combatants from the act of killing in order to lessen the mental impact of the act.

ancient langauge or not doesn't mean something has an immutable truth within it.

None of that applies to Warcraft. We've come up with ways to distance combatants in oder to lessen the mental impact of the act. I can't think of a single PTSD Warcraft character, but can think of countless characters that are Born for Battle.