Condensed Talent Trees Discussion

[Rasseim]

I am assuming that Improved Tracking and Bestial Discipline will be changed fairly quickly to be 3 points max (pretty sure they said most points per talent will be 3)

For BM:
I like the interaction between Cobra Strikes and Invigoration (our crits force our pets to crit which gives us back focus)
Question on Rhumba: it summons 3 rattlesnakes, they strike for 15%, am I reading it correctly where every 3rd Cobra Shot will strike for 145% (essentially)
I can't see spending less that 33 points as a BM raiding hunter, which kinda seems odd, curious to see if later tiers of Cataclysm raiding will have enough focus to be able to drop Kindred Spirits perhaps

For MM:
I really don't like the first tier of talents. I tend to think that Kill Command will get added into Efficiency. The Sic `Em Talent looks pretty cool, but it seems odd that it's essentially unavailable to raiding BM hunters.
I dislike the third tier, you are basically forced to take 4 essentially useless raiding talents to progress in the tree.
I don't understand Resistance is Futile talent, I didn't think that Kill Command was the MM focus dump, why is a deep MM talent buffing it, plus making this semi-questionable talent necessary for Marked for Death seems odd.
The first tiers of the other trees seem a bit lackluster for MM (assuming Imp Tracking and Bestial Discipline cap at 3 points). I can't see spending more than 3 points in either SV of BM (Imp Tracking and One with Nature), Imp Serpant Sting is a bit useless since we only apply it once per fight, and I'm not convinced how good Bestial Discipline will be to non BM hunters. Currently it looks like i'll be doing a 3/35/3

For SV:
It seems a bit bloated, it seems like it'll be hard to spend less than 36 points in this tree, and that's passing up on some rather tempting talents.
The Lock and load/TNT proccing seem like it costs too many points, 6 points to get the same benefit we currently get for 3, and then dropping completely the extra benefit of TNT?
Expose Weakness seems interesting, we'll have to see what they do with it.
Surprised that Explosive Shot isn't a talent anymore, I'm assuming they will give it to you once you spec into the SV tree

All in all, not a bad first pass, definitely needs a bit of work though

[Thereign]

Pretty sure that you only get passive talents from your primary tree. Even if tracking goes down to 3 (which it should) MM hunters will most likely bite the bullet and get imp SrS since Hunter vs Wild is amazingly OP at its current numbers.

why take imp srs, when it will effect one gcd during an entire single target fight if you are good, when you could take an ap buff to hawk that you would use the entire fight?

---------- Post added 2010-07-14 at 07:33 AM ----------

You are disregarding the focus regen during rapid fire. Either way though, you do raise a valid point, of the switch making it less of a powerful talent.

Edit:second half intended for down thar ---v

[Herecius]

lol joined the forums to reply to this madness

rapid killing is useless!!! i repeat useless.......

even if i wanted to put point in a talent that would only pay dividends on boss fights with adds ...(which i wouldn't)
the current design gives you no choice.....NO CHOICE = BAD DESIGN

2ndly......if you put the 2 point also into RR for a 4 point pay out...you get 50 Focus back every time an add dies....
50 = 1 arcane shot...!!just 1!! for each add.....
for a 4 point investment on less that maybe 1/2 the encounters 1 free arcane for 4 point when an add dies is worthless...

were not dealing with mana now bro..its focus the extra mana used to mean many more shots....now it = 1

useless talent is useless

Rapid Recup is still worth having 2 points in it, because assuming you are doing Rapid Fire, readiness, then rapid fire again, that's 30 straight seconds twice per fight (assuming you get the CD of Rapid Fire down to 3 minutes, which you SHOULD) where focus regen is massively upped. This is the equivalent of Berserk for Feral Druids, where they get to do a lot of ability spamming. I LIKE this, a lot. Anything that makes the rotation non-static is awesome in my book.

EDIT: What the fuck? How did this post get moved before Foom's post?

[Foom]

lol joined the forums to reply to this madness

rapid killing is useless!!! i repeat useless.......

even if i wanted to put point in a talent that would only pay dividends on boss fights with adds ...(which i wouldn't)
the current design gives you no choice.....NO CHOICE = BAD DESIGN

2ndly if you put the 2 points also into RR for a 4 point pay out...you only get 50 Focus back every time an add dies....
50 = 1 arcane shot! just 1! for each add
for a 4 point investment, on less that maybe 1/2 the encounters 1 free arcane when an add dies is worthless...

were not dealing with mana now ..its focus the extra mana used to mean many more shots....now it = 1

useless talent is useless

[Threndsa]

why take imp srs, when it will effect one gcd during an entire single target fight if you are good, when you could take an ap buff to hawk that you would use the entire fight?

You are taking that part of the post out of context. I said MM would take Imp Serpent Sting IF Imp tracking got taken down to 3 points. This is because at current numbers Hunter vs Wild is massively OP. Both the crafted epic polearm and the engineering goggles have been shown at what 512 stam. Thats over 150RAP for a single item. Hawk would have to give us thousands of RAP for One with nature to be better than the points spent to get HvW

[Deleted]

I think as far as my build goes i'd be going for something simlier to

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=DQRKumx.9mn.hunter

Will likely change some things around when i test that out lol, but for now i'll go with that.

[Foom]

Rapid Recup is still worth having 2 points in it, because assuming you are doing Rapid Fire, readiness, then rapid fire again, that's 30 straight seconds twice per fight (assuming you get the CD of Rapid Fire down to 3 minutes, which you SHOULD) where focus regen is massively upped. This is the equivalent of Berserk for Feral Druids, where they get to do a lot of ability spamming. I LIKE this, a lot. Anything that makes the rotation non-static is awesome in my book.

EDIT: What the fuck? How did this post get moved before Foom's post?

magic.......

anyway yeah 2 points to spam harder during RF is OK .....but again....were not dealing with mana here, if you dont use that focus during rapid fire its not damage potential stored up in reserve in the form of mana.....its just wasted
all it really means is spam arcane during rapid fire instead of steady!!!

edit* which is kinda funny as you wont get the ranged haste bonus to steady during RF...../shrug

The fact that the other bonus in this talent is linked to RK still lowers its value considerably....

[Thereign]

You are taking that part of the post out of context. I said MM would take Imp Serpent Sting IF Imp tracking got taken down to 3 points. This is because at current numbers Hunter vs Wild is massively OP. Both the crafted epic polearm and the engineering goggles have been shown at what 512 stam. Thats over 150RAP for a single item. Hawk would have to give us thousands of RAP for One with nature to be better than the points spent to get HvW

and what I am saying, is that with my current build, if imp tracking becomes a 3 point, I will have 3/3 in HvW aaaaand one with nature.

[Threndsa]

and what I am saying, is that with my current build, if imp tracking becomes a 3 point, I will have 3/3 in HvW aaaaand one with nature.

Except you need 5 points to go down to HvW which would involve getting Imp Serpent sting unless something new is brought up

[Herecius]

magic.......

anyway yeah 2 points to spam harder during RF is OK .....but again....were not dealing with mana here, if you dont use that focus during rapid fire its not damage potential stored up in reserve in the form of mana.....its just wasted
all it really means is spam arcane during rapid fire instead of steady!!!

The fact that the other bonus in this talent is linked to RK still lowers its value considerably....

I know we aren't dealing with mana. But hunters have much lower energy regen rates than Rogues or Feral Druids, so we're unlikely to be running up against 100 energy on a GCD, so the more Chimeras or Aimed we can spam during Rapid Fire, the better.
I know I'm working with beta numbers, but here's how it goes right now:
Regen is normally 6 per second.
Every 3 seconds under rapid fire, you get 12 focus. This bumps overall regen to 10 per second while under the influence of rapid fire, which is a 75% increase for 30 seconds, twice per fight. This is WITHOUT also using steady shot, which will double your base focus regen while using it. This means that steady shots during Rapid Fire would up focus regen to 16 per second. That's huge. You could almost be spamming your big shots during those 30 seconds, with a single steady shot between each one.

Try to remember that the focus costs for individual shots have not been finalized. They could very well be lower than they are now. 50 focus for Arcane Shot seems a little high, for example.

[Thereign]

Except you need 5 points to go down to HvW which would involve getting Imp Serpent sting unless something new is brought up

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuu-

I knew that was too good to be true.

[Belial-sama]

Also, where tf is my Hawk Eye?

This >

Doesn't really look interesting so far, really hope this is a very, very early version :S

[siegemaster]

IS this a subtle hint that SV is going back to the way it was in BC. It seems the filler talents are too pricey, yet needed to get the key talents.

[Threndsa]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuu-

I knew that was too good to be true.

/hug

[Arcsecant]

As expected Hunting Party didn't go away and replenishment doesn't affect focus or any other resource but mana. MM is forced to take rapid killing since there really isn't anything better after you pick up silencing shot. Luckily, silencing shot doesn't cost focus so you can continue to macro it in for pve.

Not sure how useful Careful Aim is going to be. It will sure hit like a truck for the initial MD. Casting it out of camouflage will certainly yield a big yellow five digit number on your screen. The problem is the fact that after the boss gets to 89% health those 2 or 3 points are wasted unless there are adds and even then it's an iffy talent. I hope they consider switching rapid repercussion with careful aim. That might buff survival and BM a little bit since it is an amazing talent and will only cost 8 points to get. I don't have the numbers to test it but if it won't be an issue it will definitely make the MM tree flow more smoothly.

[Kidoeng7]

hope they keep changing the talents not really liking what i saw

[togun]

this shit isnt final you all act like it is

[Foom]

this shit isnt final you all act like it is

lol really.....what we are actually doing is discussing the current talent build as it has been presented to us
granted mostly cause we haven't got anything better to do...but it seems neither do you, chum.

---------- Post added 2010-07-14 at 08:26 PM ----------

I know we aren't dealing with mana. But hunters have much lower energy regen rates than Rogues or Feral Druids, so we're unlikely to be running up against 100 energy on a GCD, so the more Chimeras or Aimed we can spam during Rapid Fire, the better.
I know I'm working with beta numbers, but here's how it goes right now:
Regen is normally 6 per second.
Every 3 seconds under rapid fire, you get 12 focus. This bumps overall regen to 10 per second while under the influence of rapid fire, which is a 75% increase for 30 seconds, twice per fight. This is WITHOUT also using steady shot, which will double your base focus regen while using it. This means that steady shots during Rapid Fire would up focus regen to 16 per second. That's huge. You could almost be spamming your big shots during those 30 seconds, with a single steady shot between each one.

Try to remember that the focus costs for individual shots have not been finalized. They could very well be lower than they are now. 50 focus for Arcane Shot seems a little high, for example.

ill try to remember that.....

but in truth its 2 points for a little extra kick only during rapid fire
I doubt that 75% extra focus Regen will be anywhere near as important as the ranged haste RF gives

[Herecius]

lol really.....what we are actually doing is discussing the current talent build as it has been presented to us
granted mostly cause we haven't got anything better to do...but it seems neither do you, chum.

---------- Post added 2010-07-14 at 08:26 PM ----------



ill try to remember that.....

but in truth its 2 points for a little extra kick only during rapid fire
I doubt that 75% extra focus Regen will be anywhere near as important as the ranged haste RF gives

For overall throughput, perhaps not, but it's the primary damage CD, and lining up damage CDs for burst DPS is always important. I'm mostly attracted to the idea that focus regen will be constantly shifting, meaning that MM will no longer be about maintaining a 100% static shot rotation.

[Ethanoel]

There is bound to be some work added to what we see at the moment, as stated by Togun. Other posters have already spotted the design flaw of 2 of our first tiers whereby we have a 4 point talent and a 5 point talent, while previous blue posts had announced we would have a maximum of 3 points per talents. I have been trawling through the other trees and every single one has 3 talents on the first tier (apart from feral where the first tier is mandatory with only a 2 and a 3 point talent available).

We'll probably see some changing of this soon, either by the adding of new abilities or the shuffling around of the existing ones. Hopefully this gives the developers an opportunity to move some of the less interesting talents discussed by previous posters around a bit so they are not mandatory at higher levels and for raiding.