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  1. #1

    Disc Priest, Spirit at high gear levels ?

    Hey guys

    I've heard now that spirit beats out mp5 at high gear levels for regen is this true ? After being basically spoon fed by countless threads here and from EJ about how bad spirit is for Disc priests now I'm hearing at higher gear levels this is not the case.

  2. #2
    Yes, but the point at which is completely overtakes is the way past the point that you should be worrying about regen in disc, because it relies on how much Int you have, and by that time, the regen from Int is more than enough to not go oom.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Check the disc talents.

    Do you see anything about boosting spirit there?

    No.

    Int has been, and always will be (until Cata at least) our regen stat. This is because almost all of the regen abilities we have are based off % of max mana (Shadowfiend, Replenishment, Hymn of Hope, Mana tide ect).

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-18 at 01:20 PM ----------

    Also, to be honest, it dosent matter if spirit beats MP5 anyway, as mp5 is inferior to Int for regen.

  4. #4
    Yes there is it's called Enlightenment... Please only post if you know anything about a disc priest.

  5. #5

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Abb View Post
    Check the disc talents.

    Do you see anything about boosting spirit there?

    No.

    Int has been, and always will be (until Cata at least) our regen stat. This is because almost all of the regen abilities we have are based off % of max mana (Shadowfiend, Replenishment, Hymn of Hope, Mana tide ect).

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-18 at 01:20 PM ----------

    Also, to be honest, it dosent matter if spirit beats MP5 anyway, as mp5 is inferior to Int for regen.
    Get a clue before saying anything please.

    Enlightment increases spirit
    Meditation increases regen from spirit

    That said, there is a point where MP5 is better regen, and once you get enough int spirit is better.
    There was a blog somewhere with a conversion graph, but i cant find the link anymore

    EDIT: Found it - http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...0&ra=20&du=400
    From the discussion here - http://www.plusheal.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5308
    It seems that 2200 Int raid buffed Spirit is a better regen stat then MP5
    Last edited by Samurai; 2010-07-19 at 12:01 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
    Get a clue before saying anything please.

    Enlightment increases spirit
    Meditation increases regen from spirit

    That said, there is a point where MP5 is better regen, and once you get enough int spirit is better.
    There was a blog somewhere with a conversion graph, but i cant find the link anymore

    EDIT: Found it - http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...0&ra=20&du=400
    From the discussion here - http://www.plusheal.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5308
    It seems that 2200 Int raid buffed Spirit is a better regen stat then MP5
    And if you're at that point, you do not need the regen anyways.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by fabian View Post
    And if you're at that point, you do not need the regen anyways.
    zing.

  9. #9
    So what is the question here?

    1) What's the best way to maximize your regen as Disc? well, theorycraft away. Follow Samurai's links. It's a lot more complicated these days because Spirit and Int each provide mana in separate ways and they also interact with each other directly.

    2) Does a Disc priest need spirit; i.e. does a Disc priest need to focus on pure mana regen? Simply, no.

  10. #10
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abb View Post
    Check the disc talents.

    Do you see anything about boosting spirit there?

    No.
    I just love when so many disc priests trash spirit as a stat to have (have not strive for) and bring up how holy has "all the spirit talents" when its utter bullshit. Disc is and has always been the tree that provided mana regen based off your SPIRIT with talents that both disc and holy pick up (hell shadow picks up some of them too). Its ignorant people like that who think they know what they're talking about when infact they don't.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-19 at 02:40 PM ----------

    To recap, disc gets:

    Meditation which is based off your spirit-based mana regen
    Elightenment which increases your spirit & haste by 6%
    Mental Strength which increases your total int by 15%

    To recap, holy gets:

    Spiritual Guidance which increases their spirit by 25%
    Spirit of Redemption which increases their spirit by 5% upon death
    Holy Concentration which when proc'd from a crit heal from flash/gheal/binding/empowered renew increases spirit based mana regen by 50%


    The reason why holy likes spirit so much now (it used to be a disc thing to love spirit so much eventhough holy always liked it) is because they have more talents that increase their spirit more than what increase disc gets AND they get the increased mana regen proc.

  11. #11
    I gem spellpower/mp5 when i want a bonus..I just hate spirit

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    I just love when so many disc priests trash spirit as a stat to have (have not strive for) and bring up how holy has "all the spirit talents" when its utter bullshit. Disc is and has always been the tree that provided mana regen based off your SPIRIT with talents that both disc and holy pick up (hell shadow picks up some of them too). Its ignorant people like that who think they know what they're talking about when infact they don't.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-19 at 02:40 PM ----------

    To recap, disc gets:

    Meditation which is based off your spirit-based mana regen
    Elightenment which increases your spirit & haste by 6%
    Mental Strength which increases your total int by 15%

    To recap, holy gets:

    Spiritual Guidance which increases their spirit by 25%
    Spirit of Redemption which increases their spirit by 5% upon death
    Holy Concentration which when proc'd from a crit heal from flash/gheal/binding/empowered renew increases spirit based mana regen by 50%


    The reason why holy likes spirit so much now (it used to be a disc thing to love spirit so much eventhough holy always liked it) is because they have more talents that increase their spirit more than what increase disc gets AND they get the increased mana regen proc.
    Meditation should not count since it is easily accessible by Holy, and all Holy priests take it. Also SoR is an increase in spirit at all times, while spiritual guidance increases SP by 25% of your spi.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    I just love when so many disc priests trash

    Spiritual Guidance which increases their spirit by 25%

    orly?

  14. #14
    Deleted
    You cant count meditation as a disc talent, if you miss it in any holy priest spec, you suck.
    And yes, I know a lot about Disc priest, I played one for 2 tiers.

    Enlightenment is a decent talent, but mainly for the haste. 6% spirit is not worth a lot.

    Who really cares if spirit is better than MP5 anyways, whoever gemmed mp5 in disc? If you want regen, you gem int.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabian View Post
    Meditation should not count since it is easily accessible by Holy, and all Holy priests take it. Also SoR is an increase in spirit at all times, while spiritual guidance increases SP by 25% of your spi.
    The point is still there that Meditation a disc talent (that all 3 specs actually pick up not just disc or holy priests) that makes your spirit based mana regen kick in while in combat. As for SoR, I was not aware that there was a change to it to be a static spirit increase instead of only while in SoR form since I haven't had a holy spec for my healing spec since early early BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparrow View Post
    orly?
    Someone doesn't understand what listing each of the talents in the trees that are affected by spirit means. I was commenting how so many disc priests trash spirit because they feel that its a shit stat (pre-BC and during BC it was actually the spec that wanted spirit more btw) when it scales with kings & after int and the mana return from rapture/replinishment is better than mp5 once you get full ICC gear. Redsparrow you're one of those asshats that has nothing to add except your bitching or argueing that you have in nearly all of your posts that I've seen in the past few days...gg

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    blah blah
    i was quoting it because the talent you linked doesn't exist or at least, doesn't do what you say it does.

  17. #17
    Whether regen at high gear levels is or is not necessary was not the point of this thread. I got some really good answers and then I got some answers that just show me how little people know about there own talent trees or care even less about theorycrafting. Kelesti If you would do me the honor of locking this thread. It's beginning to take a life of its own away from the basic reason for which it was created.

  18. #18
    During a fight, you are going to use a finite amount of mana. No fight lasts forever, and there is a limit to how much mana you can blow in a finite timeframe. Whether that mana comes from spirit/mp5 as regen, or from intellect as a large mana reserve doesn't really matter as long as you have it. But we can calculate which stat is superior based on different criteria .

    For a discpriest, intellect is always the superior stat for manaregen. The exception is if the fight lasts for several hours and we completely negate the advantage of having a large initial manapool. But seriously, no fight lasts that long. If you are fazed between the choice of spirit of MP5, then go for MP5. Spirit is the third best choice, and notably worse than MP5 unless you have silly amounts of intellect. If you can drop the MP5 stat in favor of more int, do so. The only fight where you remotely need any sort of manaregen as a discpriest is on the lich king, and intellect is the stat to do that.

    For a holypriest, intellect is also the superior stat for manaregen, but it's no longer by a longshot. A holypriest doesn't have all the int boosters, and have a lot more punch coming from spirit thanks to Spiritual Guidance, Holy Concentration and Spirit of Redemption. As a consequence, spirit overtakes MP5 in awesomeness a lot sooner than for a discpriest. Int remains the best stat, but you cannot really get gear with int instead of spirit, so might as well go for it. A holypriest should avoid MP5 at higher gear levels.

    --

    To answer the OP:

    MP5 is a simple stat. 1 MP5 gives 1 mana back every 5 seconds. But for the same itemization, you could get 2 int or 2 spirit instead. So looking at it from a per-itemization angle, MP5 is a stat which gives 0.5 MP5 in regen. Any time spirit gives more than 0.5 MP5 per point of spirit (while casting). Spirit is superior to MP5.

    The formula for spirit regen is a messy one, but it looks like this.

    spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.6 * 5 * sqrt(int) * spirit * 0.005575
    while_casting_spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.5 * spirit_regen_per_5_sec
    The second line here is due to meditation; which grants half your spirit regen while casting. If you earn 2 MP5 from spirit, then only 1 MP5 of that will be visible in a hectic boss fight.

    The only external factor in this formula is the sqrt(int) part. By putting in various numbers for your intellect value, we can get the spirit based regen at that intellect level. Right now, we want to look at the regen for 1 pt of spirit.

    At 1000 intellect
    spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.6 * 5 * sqrt(1000) * 1 * 0.005575 = 0.52 MP5
    while_casting_spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.5 * spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.26 MP5

    At 2000 intellect
    spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.6 * 5 * sqrt(2000) * 1 * 0.005575 = 0.74 MP5
    while_casting_spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.5 * spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.37 MP5

    At 2288 intellect
    spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.6 * 5 * sqrt(2288) * 1 * 0.005575 = 0.8 MP5
    while_casting_spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.5 * spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.4 MP5
    In patch 3.2, MP5 was buffed, going from 0.4 MP5 to 0.5 MP5 per itemization point. Prior to patch 3.2, the treshold value was 2288 intellect. But since MP5 is worth 25% more now, we need a LOT more intellect to catch up...

    At 3757 intellect
    spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.6 * 5 * sqrt(3757) * 1 * 0.005575 = 1.0 MP5
    while_casting_spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.5 * spirit_regen_per_5_sec = 0.5 MP5
    Concluding:
    As disc, if you have more than 3757 intellect, then spirit is superior to MP5.

    Conclusion addendum:
    If you have that much intellect, you are not likely to need regen ever again.

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Geckomayhem's Avatar
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    I only heal heroics so I'm probably out of my league here, but if you have to focus so much on how beneficial spirit is vs mp/5 you are probably focusing on the wrong thing. You want a decent mana pool (intellect) and you want to heal well (haste and spellpower). Other than that, really, what difference does it make whether you take gear with spirit or gear with mp5? Whatever you have, play with that and step your healing game up (reaction time, choosing heals wisely, not overhealing, working with other healers etc) if you struggle with going out of mana.

    As I said, there may be certain raid fights where mana regen will make a difference; especially on heroic. But people will always argue over what is best and at what point. That's where spreadsheets come in handy.

    Besides, things are going to change once the expansion hits. Then arguments over mastery vs spirit will pick up where spirit vs mp5 leave off. >.<
    For the Alliance!

  20. #20
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaiwyn View Post
    I only heal heroics so I'm probably out of my league here, but if you have to focus so much on how beneficial spirit is vs mp/5 you are probably focusing on the wrong thing. You want a decent mana pool (intellect) and you want to heal well (haste and spellpower). Other than that, really, what difference does it make whether you take gear with spirit or gear with mp5? Whatever you have, play with that and step your healing game up (reaction time, choosing heals wisely, not overhealing, working with other healers etc) if you struggle with going out of mana.

    As I said, there may be certain raid fights where mana regen will make a difference; especially on heroic. But people will always argue over what is best and at what point. That's where spreadsheets come in handy.

    Besides, things are going to change once the expansion hits. Then arguments over mastery vs spirit will pick up where spirit vs mp5 leave off. >.<
    I understand your point, i think the main discussion point here is for what to do with blue gem sockets.
    At higher gear levels most blue sockets will just have a runed cardinal in them anyway, at lower gear sets or for some reason a priest with mana issues the chances are it may be beneficial to pick up socket bonus.
    The problem is that mp5>spirit (point for point from gems 5mpvs10spirit) until your intellect reaches such a massive point that you wouldn't need the socket bonus anyway. I'm not too sure on why the debate takes place, theorycrafting for the sake of theorycrafting.
    Holy is slightly different. MP5 is still > spirit for pure regen but holy conc uptimes throw things around, and you also recieve the spirit to spell power conversion; whether you value spell power as a regen stat or not it's still giving more value to spirit (point for point compared to mp5 in gems again etc...) than mp5 for picking up socket bonuses.

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