MM and SV tree need to look more like the BM tree for Cata (In terms of choices)

[Markluzz]

If you look at it, MM has very little logical choices for pve, SV is prett similar, however I noticed one thing BM has a ton of choices where I basically couldnt decide where should i put my points because all of the talents looked useful and some fun. Ill basically post examples of builds i came up with, look at the comparison of BM build compared to SV and MM, there are tons of choices which I think is a good thing and needs to be copied into the other two trees.

http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cGbhzsbIkhboZgh
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cIbhzsbIkhbofMZM
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cGbhdsbIkhbofzZM
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cGbhzsbIkubofMZM
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cIbhzsbIkudobZG
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cIrhdsbIkGbobZz
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cGbhzsbIkhbobZGh
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cGbhzsbIkGbobZGo
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cIbhzsbIkubobZGo
And so on, you get the picture there are lots of different choices, of course one choice, which may not be one of these will be confirmed the best.

MM choices i found
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#coZfRIo0sRufoxh
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#chZfRIo0sRufoxo
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#coZfrGo0sRufoxh
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cZfrIo0sRufoxh
Not as many choices, nor are they choices i really will probably care or think about all to much.

SV choice i came up with
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cZrZgI0ccczGId
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#cZfMZgG0cMczGIk
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#chZsZgG0cMczGIk
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#ccZsZgG0cMczGIk
About the same amount as MM, there may be a couple other little choices in there but you get the picture of it.

I really think they should bloat up the MM and SV tree a little more, maybe even add one, possibly two, more talents to the BM tree, I think a big point of this change was to give you more reasonable choices.

[Vongimi]

The "choice" of talents is not supposed to be choosing between dps talents. You are supposed to be able to get all the dps talents you need for your spec, then be able to choose between utility/fun talents. A choice between which dps talents you want is not a choice, its pick the best one or you suck.

[sicness]

The "choice" of talents is not supposed to be choosing between dps talents. You are supposed to be able to get all the dps talents you need for your spec, then be able to choose between utility/fun talents. A choice between which dps talents you want is not a choice, its pick the best one or you suck.

This exactly. DPS talents shouldn't be a choice, only the 'fun' talents. They're pretty much designing each build (of all classes) to have 3-5 free talent points to spend in the 'fun' talents, giving you one or two overall options for them.

[Deleted]

Here's what I think.. FCKYESH! BM is finally back!
I've grown tired of all this mindless button pressing, now we can finally go dps in a fun to play spec again!

Never enjoyed playing my hunter more than in Vanilla and TBC, when BM was a viable spec to pick, even for non-soloing and/or bragging purposes.

[bobthemonkey]

well i think mm is changing quite a bit in general a whole new direction with that tree and sv isnt even close to finished yet cause most of its placeholders

[Markluzz]

This exactly. DPS talents shouldn't be a choice, only the 'fun' talents. They're pretty much designing each build (of all classes) to have 3-5 free talent points to spend in the 'fun' talents, giving you one or two overall options for them.

Fun talent meaning what? I find alot of dps talents fun for me, Rhumba is for sure a fun talent, yet also a dps talent. I like having to choose between 2 or 3 different dps talents or maybe deciding to nerf my dps for extra survivability, etc. Sure there will be a theorycrafted 'Best Spec', but hopefully, like it looks for BM, I can choose the smaller dps talents that i want and leave the major ones in the cookie cutter spec. Point is, if something isnt classified as a dps increase it probably wont be taken, I like picking between dps talents others may find it different.

[Sidorenko]

i admit ATM i find the MM tree boring...BUT its not done! its ganna change.

[Lysah]

I grow bored of your troll games. Realize that people have the right to discuss anything related to hunters, as long as it isn't trolling or spamming, and we will all be fine.

[Neichus]

As others have said I highly doubt the current state of talents will stick. If you read the Developer Twitter they commented that before Assassination was very heavy deep in the tree, resulting in a glut of talent points being spent at the end. See as Survival suffers the same issue I'd guess that it's slated for some major rearrangement. I'm also betting on talents like Marked for Death and Improved Tracking to be placeholders; both of those are generic in the extreme. It just seems like they had more good ideas with Beast Mastery up front.

[deadman80]

I think the issue here is that BM is a spec with a very defined and tight focus: pet damage.
MM/SV both have much more elaborate gimmicks than BM which makes BM much easier to balance and come up with ideas that aren't as likely to screw things up if you miss a rare "what if" scenario in development. I can see there being possible bizarre interactions with Rhumba IF the snakes created can actually be killed, or if they get bugged and never die (lol this would make me happy :3) but that's about it as far as really gimmicky mechanics for BM right now with known beta info.. Every talent that relates to the pet is pretty easy to understand and calculate, and the stuff that directly affect the hunter is all pretty clear as well. Compare this to MM which has multiple things going on at the same time with just Chimera Shot.. it has to check for a bare minimum of 2 different procs at the same time. SV has to deal with the FUBAR LnL/TnT setup and the bizarre reliance on elemental damage, but a relatively unfocused concept for PvE content. BM is likely just a heck of a lot easier doing the development for right now since the math and theme behind it are very easily defined, while MM/SV require a bit more forethought and planning before giving new toys to play with.

[Neichus]

It's funny, I actually have the opposite appraisal of the BM tree. Pet-related mechanics are actually rather hard to make interesting because in this game a pet is essentially a DoT with a health bar. You sic it somewhere and it deals damage automatically; since they made pets nearly immune to raid-wide damage there's hardly any management anymore. This isn't to say that I think the new BM tree is bad at all, just that some of the most interesting mechanics in the tree have only a cursory relationship to your pet.

[wordup]

Here's what I think.. FCKYESH! BM is finally back!
I've grown tired of all this mindless button pressing, now we can finally go dps in a fun to play spec again!

Never enjoyed playing my hunter more than in Vanilla and TBC, when BM was a viable spec to pick, even for non-soloing and/or bragging purposes.

Yeah I mean, the auto-win macro spam of BM in TBC was sure as hell intuitive gameplay amirite?

[aznthecapn]

Here's what I think.. FCKYESH! BM is finally back!
I've grown tired of all this mindless button pressing, now we can finally go dps in a fun to play spec again!

Never enjoyed playing my hunter more than in Vanilla and TBC, when BM was a viable spec to pick, even for non-soloing and/or bragging purposes.

BM in TBC WAS mindless button pressing.

As it stands now, there's not a whole lot that makes BM different from the other trees. Its still a grossly redundant shot rotation involving refreshing stings, special, arcane, cobra/steady spam. At least MM offers some form of unique proc to keep you on your toes.

BM has never been a fun spec to play.

[deadman80]

BM in TBC WAS mindless button pressing.

As it stands now, there's not a whole lot that makes BM different from the other trees. Its still a grossly redundant shot rotation involving refreshing stings, special, arcane, cobra/steady spam. At least MM offers some form of unique proc to keep you on your toes.

BM has never been a fun spec to play.

In Cata, BM will be using Kill Command on the same priority level as Chimera/Explosive shots. KC is being retuned to be BM's "signature" attack, and I expect that it will do some pretty scary damage, albeit still less than either of the two actual shots, but that is offset a bit due to the massive reduction in threat gen concerns that BM benefits from having a 50/50 dps split with their pet. I've got a hunch that we'll be using KC more often than ChS/ES since BMs should have a higher average focus regen than MM/SV as long as Blizz holds to putting in the hooks for Cobra Shot they have already promised.

[Kalti]

It always surprises me when people talk about specs as being 'fun' or 'interesting'. I mean, it gives the illusion that you guys are actually attached to your spec or something... but surely if an encounter would be won easier if you were to change your spec dramatically, whether that be for a DPS increase, survivability mechanic or utility of some sort then wouldn't you change it instantly? And in that vein, knowing that no specific spec is needed and you are there for pure DPS as the Hunter class is defined, then wouldn't you just use the highest DPS spec?

The only thing 'fun' and 'interesting' I find this game delivers is killing shit with my mates, so whatever makes that easiest I will spec / gear for. At the end of the day, you will be pressing mostly the same buttons, they will just have different names.

[Lysah]

It always surprises me when people talk about specs as being 'fun' or 'interesting'. I mean, it gives the illusion that you guys are actually attached to your spec or something... but surely if an encounter would be won easier if you were to change your spec dramatically, whether that be for a DPS increase, survivability mechanic or utility of some sort then wouldn't you change it instantly? And in that vein, knowing that no specific spec is needed and you are there for pure DPS as the Hunter class is defined, then wouldn't you just use the highest DPS spec?

The only thing 'fun' and 'interesting' I find this game delivers is killing shit with my mates, so whatever makes that easiest I will spec / gear for. At the end of the day, you will be pressing mostly the same buttons, they will just have different names.

Combat is boring as hell, mutilate is fun. I prefer using daggers over gigantic extremely non-stealthy axes, and poisons seem much more rogue like than YAR HACK HACK HACK. On that note, subtlety is by far more fun than the other two, it raises the skill requirement up a few dozen notches, and gives you a bunch of fast cooldowns to spam, as well as an overflow of combo points. I hardly think what I spec into doesn't matter.

[Deleted]

MM is looking damn fine needs a bit buffed but it is really nice.

[conscript]

Here's what I think.. FCKYESH! BM is finally back!
I've grown tired of all this mindless button pressing, now we can finally go dps in a fun to play spec again!

Never enjoyed playing my hunter more than in Vanilla and TBC, when BM was a viable spec to pick, even for non-soloing and/or bragging purposes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I remember of Vanilla, BM was a complete joke. In fact what I remember from Vanilla is that every Hunter was Marks unless you were a loltastic melee Survival Hunter. I don't even remember ever seeing a BM Hunter until the revamp late in Vanilla.

Also BM was hardly fun for most of BC. It was ridiculously overpowered which is probably why you think it was fun. I know I certainly did enjoy doing ridiculous dps by attaching one macro to my mouse wheel, but fun isn't a word I would really throw out there.

Also everyone should probably hold off on throwing out talent variations. None of the trees are even close to finalized and BM is missing one of its key abilities as the Beast Within got removed from the tree by accident.

[Bob002]

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I remember of Vanilla, BM was a complete joke. In fact what I remember from Vanilla is that every Hunter was Marks unless you were a loltastic melee Survival Hunter. I don't even remember ever seeing a BM Hunter until the revamp late in Vanilla.

Also BM was hardly fun for most of BC. It was ridiculously overpowered which is probably why you think it was fun. I know I certainly did enjoy doing ridiculous dps by attaching one macro to my mouse wheel, but fun isn't a word I would really throw out there.

I was BM before being BM was cool. I just liked playing it due to thinking that pets were an integral part of my class at the time.

[Neichus]

It always surprises me when people talk about specs as being 'fun' or 'interesting'. I mean, it gives the illusion that you guys are actually attached to your spec or something... but surely if an encounter would be won easier if you were to change your spec dramatically, whether that be for a DPS increase, survivability mechanic or utility of some sort then wouldn't you change it instantly? And in that vein, knowing that no specific spec is needed and you are there for pure DPS as the Hunter class is defined, then wouldn't you just use the highest DPS spec?

The only thing 'fun' and 'interesting' I find this game delivers is killing shit with my mates, so whatever makes that easiest I will spec / gear for. At the end of the day, you will be pressing mostly the same buttons, they will just have different names.

I think you merely represent one opinion of many. I quit playing my Rogue in BC when it became apparent that no matter how good I was at Assassination, Combat was the way to go. I nearly quit my Hunter later in BC when it became apparent that Beast Mastery was the only way to go; I was lucky enough to slip into a guild that needed a Survival Hunter for raid buffing, and that's literally the only reason I didn't abandon my Hunter for raiding. Later in WotLK I didn't pick up my Hunter again until the Beast Mastery crazy had calmed down and Marksmanship made a bit of a come back (I didn't like what they did to Survival in WotLK).

So yes, I do become attached to specs. I have quite a few characters so I have the luxury of choosing what I enjoy playing. I don't randomly quit on my guild (all of the stories above I changed toons between guilds) but I have little inclination to play what spec is most popular or effective but rather which most fits my personal tastes.