Ret Pally's able to cleanse magic?

[pomop]

They have said several times in the last year they want to work toward getting rid of hard counters.
So far we have seen all ranged classes get more ways to kite & CC.
What has ret got?
1 It has lost cleanse our main way to counter CC and kiting when HOF was on CD
2 we have been told that health pools will skyrocket while our healing potential will lessen dramatically from what it is now.
3 There has been no word on weather or not our interrupt will require melee range.
4 To top all this off the way our new attack system will work is similar to rouges in that we must use other weaker attacks to power it up for a finisher melee attack.

Taking all these changes into account and the fact our up front burst is going bye bye for a system that requires we stay in melee to finish opponents we will be screwed in pvp unless we get an actual way to get into melee range & stay there. They said they wanted us to focus allot more on offense and allot less on healing potential so lets hope to god they finally keep their word because there are plenty on simple changes they could do to do it.

Like say changing the joke that is pursuit of justice to instead give hand of freedom a 50-100% dispel resistance and provide a 15-30 or 20-40% run speed buff when cast on yourself, and possibly change seal of justice from the RNG stun (they want to get rid of rng anyway) into a seal that causes half the damage of seal of righteousness but slightly snares the target (say 25-30%) which would make us chose between more burst or more control.

These would still not be nearly as good as an instant gap closer like charge/death grip because we would still have to actually run to the target which leaves us vulnerable to polymorph, fear, knockbacks, and concussive shot etc... but they would be a fair trade off since we will be only slightly more defensive then arms/fury or death knight dps specs in cataclysm.

It's got a quote by blizzard saying "We are still working on paladins."

Or the *obvious* answer from many in this thread, that this is final and ret pallies are a dead spec in cata. Who knows though, surely they are dead in cata and are not part of blizzards "all specs equal" plan.

[Kleins]

What you quoted didn't seem like it was trying to say it's a ret-only concern. Just that whereas others are countered, Kleins felt ret are going to be hard-countered by frost, come Cata.

Or maybe I just read right past the text and came up with my own meaning.

No, that's exactly the point I was trying to push.

[Tigercat]

What you quoted didn't seem like it was trying to say it's a ret-only concern. Just that whereas others are countered, Kleins felt ret are going to be hard-countered by frost, come Cata.

Or maybe I just read right past the text and came up with my own meaning.

I know what he's saying, I just disagree with the idea that it's a ret-only concern.

You are completely right, every melee class has to deal with it but the difference is the tools at their disposal to do so!

Warr - Charge, intercept, bladestorm and heroic leap in cata + hamstring. That means the moment you stop being frozen, you are already on your target and hamstring is on it instantly. As much as he slows you, he is slowed as well. So many tools at your disposal. Oh, i forgot intervene as well.

DK - CoI, death grip, desecration.. Whats more to say here..

Rogue - Muti have it a bit harder but with clos, vanish, prep, poisons they get on fine.

Ret - Freedom, self dispels. Freedom is spellstolen instantly by any decent mage since you are usually buffless when fighting mages. So for the next 20 something seconds, you are constantly kited. You can't dispel all the chills from you so you have to wait for your next freedom just so it can be spellstolen again. Repentance you say? You dmg him out of it, he continues kiting you. Repentance + hoj. He blinks from hoj. Keeps on kiting you. Don't even dare mention Judgement of Justice. All it does is makes your target move normal speed. So moving normal speed is a snare now? That will certainly help much when everything is moving 50% faster than you are Plus you need to be 10y or less to even use it.

I could continue, but i don't really see the point. 2.5% is ret representation in arena. That's kinda low considering how "faceroll" ret is, don't you think. Funny thing is, all the people saying ret is easy to play don't have one, haven't played arena or a decent bg, have never passed 1500 rating on any of their chars (or they would see for themselves how easy to deal with ret is), and are mostly using their anus for talking.

The only way a melee class can stay in range of a frost mage for any significant amount of time is interrupt a frost spell and hope blink is on cooldown, or in the case of DKs strangulate. Last I checked they're planning on giving ret an interrupt, so I'm not sure where the problem is.

Sure, ret can be snared and kited around all day unless there's outside help, but that still applies to every other melee class, that's what they do. A rogue using cloak + sprint can get a few hits in if the mage doesn't have ice block or blink up, but if the rogue has those available while the mage's abilities are on cooldown something else is going on to have caused that situation to begin with.

You want to go into a point by point list of what frost mages can do to kite rets, ok. Now it's my turn with a warrior.

Warrior charges, and let's be generous here and say the mage didnt abuse latency to get away before the warrior even got there and managed to apply a hamstring or PH. Mage frost novas, moves away after taking 1 hit. Nova breaks, warrior intercepts, mage blinks, warrior is almost certainly snared or rooted from frost armor/frostbite. Let's suppose the warrior instead bladestorms when nova'd to break it and attack the mage, mage blinks and continues to run away waiting for bladestorm to end. Bladestorm ends, let's say the warrior gets an intercept off before getting snared and manages to hamstring the mage. Mage ice blocks, waits it out, blinks once the block fades(6 second bladestorm duration, 1 second travel time on intercept, 8 second ice block, 15 seconds total which matches blink cooldown). If the warrior cancelaura's the bladestorm and gets to the mage fast enough for that strategy not to work, then hey they can still ice block then cold snap a frost nova. By the time nova wears off, let's say the warrior heroic leaps to the mage again, oh nevermind the mage can blink.

This just goes on and on and comes down to teammates making a difference. That's the other point here, complaining about 1v1 situations accomplishes nothing as thats not how the game is balanced. What you're predicting to happen, even if it does which I find somewhat unlikely, will just put you in the same boat of other players.

[zcks]

Tiger overall a warrior will always far exceed the ret or prot paladin in mobility. this is because they have a snare they can spam & a gap closer that closes the gap instantly and removes snares/roots. All paladins have is a slightly increased run speed and a way to clear snares/roots that still requires they run at their normal speed to the target, & oh ya that spell can be dispelled/spell stolen.

This is also the reason they always have exceeded ret & prot paladins in viability in pvp. They focus more on offensive pressure as a dps class, which is the main staple of being a dps because being able to heal somewhat decently & dps without real offensive pressure & staying on the target just makes you a 5th wheel.

Blizz has promised we would focus more on offensive pressure in cataclysm in exchange for less healing potential but unless they give us a better way to get to our target and stay on them it will just end up making us worse because we will end up having to rely even more on our teammates then we do now.

[MethodDarkspear]

Trust me I don't enjoy the Ret Paladins play style at all, 6 buttoning his way to victory. That's why I rolled a Disc Priest and Ele Sham

Oh dear lord, thanks for the laugh, hope you enjoy your harder to play ele shaman in PvP.

[Moonwulf]

lol all they have is freedom. What do warriors get? Nothing. Stop complaining. immunity for 10 seconds every 30 is not enough?

[zcks]

lol all they have is freedom. What do warriors get? Nothing. Stop complaining. immunity for 10 seconds every 30 is not enough?

You do realize warriors charge & intercept break snares and roots right? and that they close the distance instantly. Warriors also have a spammable snare.

All a paladin has is hand of freedom which can be spell stolen/dispelled by 4 classes and a warlock pet. It also requires we run at our regular run speed to catch the target. If you still don't believe me when I say warriors can handle kiting much easier you should talk to ronark he did the math and found that if a target starts runing from us when we are 20 yards away we will have to chase them for over 310 seconds before we are in melee range & that's assuming they don't use CC to even kite us.

[Rhaenis]

You want to go into a point by point list of what frost mages can do to kite rets, ok. Now it's my turn with a warrior.

Warrior charges, and let's be generous here and say the mage didnt abuse latency to get away before the warrior even got there and managed to apply a hamstring or PH. Mage frost novas, moves away after taking 1 hit. Nova breaks, warrior intercepts, mage blinks, warrior is almost certainly snared or rooted from frost armor/frostbite. Let's suppose the warrior instead bladestorms when nova'd to break it and attack the mage, mage blinks and continues to run away waiting for bladestorm to end. Bladestorm ends, let's say the warrior gets an intercept off before getting snared and manages to hamstring the mage. Mage ice blocks, waits it out, blinks once the block fades(6 second bladestorm duration, 1 second travel time on intercept, 8 second ice block, 15 seconds total which matches blink cooldown). If the warrior cancelaura's the bladestorm and gets to the mage fast enough for that strategy not to work, then hey they can still ice block then cold snap a frost nova. By the time nova wears off, let's say the warrior heroic leaps to the mage again, oh nevermind the mage can blink.

Man, this topic has been rehashed so many times now. I've already gone into an insanely detailed comparison showing how easily Ret can get kited/countered by all 6 of the ranged classes.

Just because you haven't ever actually played Ret (or a Warrior either, apparently) doesn't mean they are "fine". Rets need a snare or closer to be balanced. If they don't get one, it's not going to be any worse than it is now, and the sky is not going to fall...but that doesn't make it any less true.

But I had to at least post this correction to your above "point by point list".

1. Apparently you can't Charge in combat? Cause you only charged once during that entier encounter.
2. Apparently you can't Shatter his Ice Block?
3. Apparently you can't Spell Reflect *anything* (it has a 10s CD, btw)?

Oh, Warriors also get a 5s stun on a 45s CD too (HoJ, anyone?).

And the Mage is constantly using his GCDs to *escape* the constantly assaulting Warrior. He maybe has time to throw a few instants and a cast here and there? All the while, all of his roots are giving the Warrior health back.

And supposedly the fight "goes on and on forever", right? Well, gee...that almost sounds...equal. Like...they are balanced and one doesn't "trump" the other, and the only real difference is going to be gear or skill.

You vastly undervalue closers/snares, as that is what *forces* the Mage (or ranged dude) on the defensive. Against a Ret, the Mage (or ranged dude) gets to go on the *offensive*. All that time you spend walking at 50% speed to catch up to the Mage, he's bombarding you with damage. It's not even close to comparable, so just stop it.

[Deleted]

All of you keeps saying that we have Freedom, bubble, bop, etc.. please remember that all classes just dispell it

[Abandon]

Blink + Frostbolt isn't the problem. It's Blink + Frostbolt + CoC + Frost Nova + Deep Freeze + Imp. Blizzard + Freeze + Deep Freeze + Ice Armor + Shattered Barrier. You can also add Curtain of Frost to that already comically huge list come Cataclysm too.

Now this problem is not a Paladin one. It's just Paladins will have to deal with it along with the rest of us and likely be in a pretty tight spot without magical cleansing unless they get some uber abilities. Could go either way as Re.t seems to flip-flop between "Borderline Cheating" and "Completely Useless" in terms of power with no real happy medium.

Keep in mind that Frostbite is being removed in Cataclysm. Also, Fingers of Frost will only count the target as Frozen for Deep Freeze and Icelance, not Frostbolt, so no chance of using a regular Shatter combo with Frostbolt with it.

All of you keeps saying that we have Freedom, bubble, bop, etc.. please remember that all classes just dispell it

Not all classes have an offensive dispel, so no, all classes don't just dispel it.

[Woogs]

You do realize warriors charge & intercept break snares and roots right?

Is this true? I thought only prot warriors could remove snares with intervene via a talent.

[nosoup4crr]

Is this true?

no.