Rogue PvP in Cata, looking good :)

[mikklas]

I hate this... Blizz told us that we shouldn't have to decide from dmg talents... But meh, guess pve guys don't have that problem since all we lose is dmg taken reduced...

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=wC1dU9r1F.9q4.rogue

Hopefully we will get a nice change that allows us to get deadened nerves in T1 or something instead of imp eviscerate... But I guess that won't happen ^^

[Regnak]

Rogue PvP in Cata, looking crap

Mobility nerfs, stunlock nerfs, probably the weakest talent trees in the beta build atm and I refuse to go combat.

Sub damage still crap, seriously do Blizz even care about rogues at this point? How much time did it take them to think up a HoT (lol, can we get cyclone please?) Redirect, which had so much design talent worked in that it's utterly useless. What I can only describe as a slightly more fixed version of evasion, and they rounded it off with a smokescreen to how little attention they're giving us... sorry I mean a smoke bomb.

[Deleted]

Rogue PvP in Cata, looking crap

Mobility nerfs, stunlock nerfs, probably the weakest talent trees in the beta build atm and I refuse to go combat.

Sub damage still crap, seriously do Blizz even care about rogues at this point? How much time did it take them to think up a HoT (lol, can we get cyclone please?) Redirect, which had so much design talent worked in that it's utterly useless. What I can only describe as a slightly more fixed version of evasion, and they rounded it off with a smokescreen to how little attention they're giving us... sorry I mean a smoke bomb.

The stunlock nerf is not as big as it seems, they remove all the anti stun duration/damage racials and talents, thats a big buff to a class that has a good stun on a 20 sec CD. Also ambush damage is buffed pretty good so we still have a strong opener, ambush or even garrote. They said they will buff our mobility so lets not give up hope yet.

I still think that those talents are good for a "beta starter talent version", however, the new versions have been released just a while ago and rogues didn't get many changes while all the other classes got massive changes to improve their pvp trees.

Warriors, Warlocks and Mages have received some awesome changes. I hope to see allot of changes for rogues in the next talent version, i want to see prep adressed, sanguary veins and some abilities redesigned!

Lets see what blizzard does

[Sesshou]

Your original post confuses me... You say rogue pvp is looking good and then you only talk about viable specs and partners for those specs in 2s, and afaik blizz doesn't plan to make 2s matter again. So since 2s is meaningless, how does having a viable 2s comp matter in terms of how rogues do in pvp.

I'm not in the beta so I really have no idea if we are ok or not, but if you want to make a point that we are, perhaps you should be talking about 3s, 5s, and rated bgs.

[Deleted]

Your original post confuses me... You say rogue pvp is looking good and then you only talk about viable specs and partners for those specs in 2s, and afaik blizz doesn't plan to make 2s matter again. So since 2s is meaningless, how does having a viable 2s comp matter in terms of how rogues do in pvp.

I'm not in the beta so I really have no idea if we are ok or not, but if you want to make a point that we are, perhaps you should be talking about 3s, 5s, and rated bgs.

The OP was about the first rogue talents shown, now we are some builds further and rogues haven't improved at all while other classes talents have in terms of pvp and pve, so i am a bit disapointed, hoping for big changes in the next talent build.

2v2 will reward everything again in cataclysm, gladiator and gear.

[Regnak]

The stunlock nerf is not as big as it seems, they remove all the anti stun duration/damage racials and talents, thats a big buff to a class that has a good stun on a 20 sec CD. Also ambush damage is buffed pretty good so we still have a strong opener, ambush or even garrote. They said they will buff our mobility so lets not give up hope yet.

Ambush or Garrotte don't make up for cheap shot considering half the point of it was that they couldn't do anything about other people hitting them either, nor could they hit us back. It was basically a essential part of our survivability, and it's gone with the only really decent passive survivability buff we've had is Recuperate, which frankly I'm horrified to find appears to be Blizzard's idea of balance: The size of everyone's refreshable HoT. Also remember health pools are going up a lot, so if we work on a basis of everyone's passive survivability (in terms of damage taken) remaining the same then that's a huge nerf to rogues as it is. We've been promised in return they will break our cooldown dependence, and we've been given 3 new cooldowns, of which only one is vaguely useful in improving our survivability, and even then only vaguely.

Also they haven't removed the most retarded Stun reduction ability there is: Blink.

Everytime I break an Ice Barrier on a stunned mage, thus getting frozen virtually on auto, only for the mage to then blink out of my stun, I just think: Why does this class of all of them need this? If anything mages actually do need a damage reduction while stunned talent, and they need to take away blinking out of stuns (as in keep blink but stop it working while stunned). The breaking of stunlocks removes any chance of us ever getting a successful stun on a mage as you could at least then catch him with the different DR'd stun after the blink.

I still think that those talents are good for a "beta starter talent version", however, the new versions have been released just a while ago and rogues didn't get many changes while all the other classes got massive changes to improve their pvp trees.

I'll be honest here, when I first saw the rogue talent trees from alpha (with the first set to come out of the alpha so they must have been pretty happy with them) I thought the website was showing me the rogue changes in the next minor content patch. It looks like Blizzard are either going to spend a month solid just working on rogues or they've given up on the class completely to be honest. I am so far exceptionally disappointed with Blizzard's attention (well lack thereof) to rogues, and have been ever since the official class preview.

The new versions show us as one of, if not the, weakest class currently on beta.

Warriors, Warlocks and Mages have received some awesome changes. I hope to see allot of changes for rogues in the next talent version, i want to see prep adressed, sanguary veins and some abilities redesigned!

Lets see what blizzard does

It's Blizzard though, you know what they're like. There are huge numbers of gaping problems in the game that they take so long fixing, and they create more problems as the go about it. To list some quickly:

Paladins: Well Ret has been unusable in serious PvP for God only knows how long, mainly due to ridiculous burst damage and no CC or gap closing, and for crying out loud Prot has been a semi decent healing spec!
Hunters are being virtually redesigned. Well there are next to no changes to that in each patch, despite some talents still referring to mana until a few days ago
Death Knights have been shite in PvP for a year now
Rogues have had no mobility/no sustained damage for as long, and have been completely cd and prep dependant
Druids: Balance had no survivability and little kiting. Oh well up goes starfall damage, that will compensate! Imaginative. Ferals... I have never seen a serious feral in arena.
Shamans - where to start?
Warlocks as far as I can tell haven't used demonology really for anything for ages. Reminds me of Sub /cry
Mages need a bludgeoning with the nerf bat

etc.

With them throwing around the phrase "Cataclysm will fix it" so often it would be nice if they did actually fix things, and when it's simple cases of increasing the damage done by certain abilities by 10% and making them deal damage as Shadow/make them pierce ArP it would be nice if they managed to sort that in the alpha so we weren't getting constant reports from rogues in the Beta: Backstab is still like a poison proc.

[Sesshou]

The OP was about the first rogue talents shown, now we are some builds further and rogues haven't improved at all while other classes talents have in terms of pvp and pve, so i am a bit disapointed, hoping for big changes in the next talent build.

2v2 will reward everything again in cataclysm, gladiator and gear.

Oh really? I never saw a blue post on that, but great news. Still, for "rogue pvp" to be "looking good," we need to be not just doing ok in 2s.

[Deleted]

Ambush or Garrotte don't make up for cheap shot considering half the point of it was that they couldn't do anything about other people hitting them either, nor could they hit us back. It was basically a essential part of our survivability, and it's gone with the only really decent passive survivability buff we've had is Recuperate, which frankly I'm horrified to find appears to be Blizzard's idea of balance: The size of everyone's refreshable HoT. Also remember health pools are going up a lot, so if we work on a basis of everyone's passive survivability (in terms of damage taken) remaining the same then that's a huge nerf to rogues as it is.

You do realize that almost every class had a talent that reduced stun duration or damage received in stuns? Even an entire race has Duration reduce on stuns, all these are getting removed. Your cheap shot is never a 4 sec stun and your kidney shot isn't a 6 sec stun, our 10 sec stun on a priest was 8 sec in reality, now only kidney shot is 100% 6 sec, longer fights mean more kidney shot, trust me, stuns might actually be better, especially now that we can do damage on moonkins, elemental shamans and feral druids while they are stunned.

We've been promised in return they will break our cooldown dependence, and we've been given 3 new cooldowns, of which only one is vaguely useful in improving our survivability, and even then only vaguely.

Yep, disapointing.

Also they haven't removed the most retarded Stun reduction ability there is: Blink.

Blink removing stuns is fine, rogues not having a gap closer trainable is the problem.

Everytime I break an Ice Barrier on a stunned mage, thus getting frozen virtually on auto, only for the mage to then blink out of my stun, I just think: Why does this class of all of them need this? If anything mages actually do need a damage reduction while stunned talent, and they need to take away blinking out of stuns (as in keep blink but stop it working while stunned). The breaking of stunlocks removes any chance of us ever getting a successful stun on a mage as you could at least then catch him with the different DR'd stun after the blink.

No, any anti stun racial or talent is RETARDED. Blinking out of stuns is fine and adds some skill to the game! Most good rogues are happy that frostbite got removed, shattered barrier is not the problem, random RNG freezes which you can't avoid are a pain in the ass. As it stands now, combat and mutilate will be destroyed by frost mages more than they are now, however, sub rogues will destroy frost mages with removal of frostbite and the buff to ambush damage.

I'll be honest here, when I first saw the rogue talent trees from alpha (with the first set to come out of the alpha so they must have been pretty happy with them) I thought the website was showing me the rogue changes in the next minor content patch. It looks like Blizzard are either going to spend a month solid just working on rogues or they've given up on the class completely to be honest. I am so far exceptionally disappointed with Blizzard's attention (well lack thereof) to rogues, and have been ever since the official class preview.

I know what you mean, at the start rogues looked really good, but the lack of changes to the problems is shocking ;( i think we can expect big rogue changes in the next build, if not R.I.P Rogue class.

The new versions show us as one of, if not the, weakest class currently on beta.

Yep, mages and warriors looking really good.

Hunters are being virtually redesigned. Well there are next to no changes to that in each patch, despite some talents still referring to mana until a few days ago

Hunters don't deserve anything more, the whole focus and change to their abilities has made them a sick class, MM talents look damn fine and they have buffed the SHIT out of Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot (cd reduced by 4 sec, damage increased by 33%). A MM Hunter's aimed shot at start can crit more than chaos bolt/lava burst and they can get instant Aimed Shots in the middle of the fight aswell, chimera will hit like a truck and with focus, hunters won't be plagued by aspect of the viper ruining their kill.

I have a hunter and with focus, hunters will be a combination of rogue/warrior while being able to kite and do the damage from ranged, i am seriously considering to play my hunter in cataclysm. Depends on incoming rogue changes.

Death Knights have been shite in PvP for a year now

No, double healer DK is easily gladiator material and easier to play than RMP.

Rogues have had no mobility/no sustained damage for as long, and have been completely cd and prep dependant

Mutilate has sustained damage and burst, mobility is the real problem.

Druids: Balance had no survivability and little kiting. Oh well up goes starfall damage, that will compensate! Imaginative. Ferals... I have never seen a serious feral in arena.

Still have resto ;D

Shamans - where to start?

Resto is viable in arena, Elemental is awesome for caster cleave and Enchancement is awesome for Beast Cleave. Shamans, Priests and Warlocks are the best PvP classes for arena in S8.

Warlocks as far as I can tell haven't used demonology really for anything for ages. Reminds me of Sub /cry

why do they need it when they have destro and affliction both rocking arena?

Mages need a bludgeoning with the nerf bat

Mages are fine, only Mage Armour needs nerfed down to 30% and frostbite needs to be removed.

With them throwing around the phrase "Cataclysm will fix it" so often it would be nice if they did actually fix things, and when it's simple cases of increasing the damage done by certain abilities by 10% and making them deal damage as Shadow/make them pierce ArP it would be nice if they managed to sort that in the alpha so we weren't getting constant reports from rogues in the Beta: Backstab is still like a poison proc.

Backstab got a buff, will see if it is enough or not.

---------- Post added 2010-07-23 at 08:58 PM ----------

Oh really? I never saw a blue post on that, but great news. Still, for "rogue pvp" to be "looking good," we need to be not just doing ok in 2s.

Blizzard said that 2v2 is currently not a healthy PvP environment duo the fast phased state of the game and damage being idiotic. If things slow down, which they are (atleast supposed to) in cata, then i don't see why they would still keep the penalty on the 2v2 bracket.

[Deleted]

Woooooaaaaaoooow. Someone is actually positive about their class instead of massive "QQ my class sucks boost pl0x blizz.."

[Deleted]

Woooooaaaaaoooow. Someone is actually positive about their class instead of massive "QQ my class sucks boost pl0x blizz.."

It is a good "starter talents" but the lack of rogue changes is shocking, i think allot of rogue changing are coming the next talent build i am still positive though, just hope that this is not all while every other class improves with new talent versions.

[Deleted]

A good specced sub with blackjack can sap+step+ambush which crits very high and causes -70% dmg,-20% haste and -50% movement speed for 8 secs.
Then he can smoke bomb asap and evi on 5 combo (followed by dismantle if a melee) then shadow dance and ambush->stun->ambush->cheap->evi(if lucky with enought energy), keeping the nasty -50% movement and -20% attack speed debuff. Then the smoke bomb dissapears and its only him, his healer and the enemy healer left.
While his smoke bomb is up the healer is distracting heavily the enemy healer so he doesnt have to worry about it.
He didn't even vanish/evasion/sprint coz he was unable to get targeted and get CCed.
Guess who wins.
And even if something goes wrong you can easily sprint+vanish+step again and try that again with prep etc...
Thats how I see my future 2v2 arenas. Things may change coz its still beta yea but with this smoke bomb you can jump with ambush without even stunning (sap doesnt count).
/discuss coz I know im wrong somewhere... it seems too easy to be true ;d

[Sesshou]

Blizzard said that 2v2 is currently not a healthy PvP environment duo the fast phased state of the game and damage being idiotic. If things slow down, which they are (atleast supposed to) in cata, then i don't see why they would still keep the penalty on the 2v2 bracket.

Wait, I'm confused. Which is it, you know they are allowing full benefits for 2v2 or you don't see why they wouldn't allow full benefits. I'd love to see benefits for 2v2 again, but you first state it as a fact and then as an assumption, which is it?

[Regnak]

You do realize that almost every class had a talent that reduced stun duration or damage received in stuns? Even an entire race has Duration reduce on stuns, all these are getting removed. Your cheap shot is never a 4 sec stun and your kidney shot isn't a 6 sec stun, our 10 sec stun on a priest was 8 sec in reality, now only kidney shot is 100% 6 sec, longer fights mean more kidney shot, trust me, stuns might actually be better, especially now that we can do damage on moonkins, elemental shamans and feral druids while they are stunned.

I have or had a lv 40+ of every class, as well as tried all out in skirms at 80 on the arena pass, and spend a lot of time theory crafting talent trees for different specs. No this doesn't make me the font of all knowledge but it means I know a lot about other classes, including their stun defences, which, with the phrase "wotlk'd" going around makes sense and is reasonable. So I am aware about stun resistances thanks.

Also it was actually a 6 second stun rather than a 10 second stun on a priest, but priests were so squishy if they couldn't trinket that and you could get 2/3 team members dpsing on them they dropped anyway. (Priest squishyness happens to be another thing Blizzard have... overlooked. Great healing and damage output when they aren't being trained in the latest Beta... not really fixing their problems, appreciated though it is, and I have lv 80 Dpriest) so if they fix that then shared DR without stun reduction talents doesn't sound like so much of a buff, but whatever.

I am FOR cs being on the same dr as ks, however it has to come with a passive survivability buff, which atm we don't have. We have a HoT because they implemented it into the wrong preview and were too embarrassed to admit it. That is why I am quite pissed off about the removal of stunlocks, it was meant to be part of a compromise, instead we just got screwed over. Oh it's only ele shammies who have astral shift btw, and you can't really complain about them considering they spend so much more time stunned as they have shite mobility... at the moment. Also boomkins are bordering PvP viable as a result of the immense starfall buffs, once their cooldowns are gone they are what is known as walking honour/rating, and somehow feral druids are the spec I probably beat most, even though they all turtle in bear form lol.

Blink removing stuns is fine, rogues not having a gap closer trainable is the problem.

Well it will make them completely immune to stuns in Cata, as opposed to being immune to all stuns except one stun applied by a rogue every 15 seconds... I mean if we're talking about getting rid of stun reduction talents and abilities this is the one that needs to go most, and give them something passive to make up for it.

The not having a gap closer (which should be talent linked, as otherwise Sub gap closing becomes phenomenal, but we should also have something like Sprint: 1 min cd, 5 sec duration, increases your movement speed by 70% and makes you immune to movement impairing effects for the duration trainable would also help).

No, any anti stun racial or talent is RETARDED. Blinking out of stuns is fine and adds some skill to the game! Most good rogues are happy that frostbite got removed, shattered barrier is not the problem, random RNG freezes which you can't avoid are a pain in the ass. As it stands now, combat and mutilate will be destroyed by frost mages more than they are now, however, sub rogues will destroy frost mages with removal of frostbite and the buff to ambush damage.

The point there wasn't a QQ about the Ice Barrier freeze, it was about the blink out of the stun before I've even been able to dent their hp, I'm snared, frozen and their 20 yards away. The only thing I can do from here is use a cooldown to prevent myself being pummelled by frost bolts. They have used nothing so far. The same problem applies with garrotte to open, except you stick a DoT on them (which is about as scary as summoning a Kobold to follow them with a shovel).

I know what you mean, at the start rogues looked really good, but the lack of changes to the problems is shocking ;( i think we can expect big rogue changes in the next build, if not R.I.P Rogue class.

I've been thinking the next Cataclysm update/preview/information thing/interview/alpha talent trees and now /Beta patch will have big rogue changes in it. As each goes by with nothing I'm feeling more and more we've been forgotten.

Hunters don't deserve anything more, the whole focus and change to their abilities has made them a sick class, MM talents look damn fine and they have buffed the SHIT out of Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot (cd reduced by 4 sec, damage increased by 33%). A MM Hunter's aimed shot at start can crit more than chaos bolt/lava burst and they can get instant Aimed Shots in the middle of the fight aswell, chimera will hit like a truck and with focus, hunters won't be plagued by aspect of the viper ruining their kill.

I have a hunter and with focus, hunters will be a combination of rogue/warrior while being able to kite and do the damage from ranged, i am seriously considering to play my hunter in cataclysm. Depends on incoming rogue changes.

I've been reading everything I can about every class in Cata for the last weeks, and most hunters are really really not happy with the state of focus and how many things about it haven't been properly worked out yet. The last mana based talents have only just gone lol! So saying it has made them unstoppable is a bit steep, and you may have a hunter but the majority of hunter opinions at the moment is that a lot more work is needed on the focus system. Also remember the actual number crunching tends to be done towards the end of the Beta for classes where the exact niches of abilities is still being worked out, and for a class with such a system still being a major work in progress I can't see the numbers being the most important aspect to work on atm. still they look fun to play and I'm currently grinding full artifacts for my new Worgen Hunter (well, new come cata).

No, double healer DK is easily gladiator material and easier to play than RMP.

Double healer Shadowmourne, not double healer DK :P

Their damage output without that weapon and lot's of PvE gear is abysmal and in double healer it's the mana burn that wins it, not the DK's pressure.

Mutilate has sustained damage and burst, mobility is the real problem.

I know it does, I was talking about Sub there, when speccing we have to choose between sustained damage (muti) and mobility (sub), both specs need more of what the other has, but not to the extent of said other spec.

Still have resto ;D

That was an example of one of their very cheap and rather poor "fixes" to classes in PvP, a good comparison in that sense to recuperate, Boomkins are dangling on the edge of PvP viability because they hit starfall and it does their work for them. Their damage was fine, now it's mental. Their survivability and kiting was the problem. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Envenom damage go up by 100% and us get no new mobility come Cata, as far as Blizz is concerned that's a fix.

Resto is viable in arena, Elemental is awesome for caster cleave and Enchancement is awesome for Beast Cleave. Shamans, Priests and Warlocks are the best PvP classes for arena in S8.

All 3 specs are viable and great I know, the problem is in how and why: Elemental has next to no control or kiting, which is why it only works with other casters who can bring that. In return it's damage needs to go down and at the very best hero should only be like 15% in arenas.

Enhancement: This is typical Blizzard. Big shiny awesome button. 3 Minute cooldown. Unstoppable for 45 seconds. Crap for 135.

Resto the only advantage is heroism, well they have a lot of cool shizz but it's mainly heroism. If they toned heroism down to 15% then this could get some cool shizz.

That's what I mean by Shamans having problems: Without hero/lust they're nothing.

why do they need it when they have destro and affliction both rocking arena?

All specs being viable is the goal, and it's even hard to achieve!

Mages are fine, only Mage Armour needs nerfed down to 30% and frostbite needs to be removed.

Mage Armour shouldn't reduce duration it should just like reduce damage by a percentage. Frost needs control and survivability turned down, at least to the point where it's actually a viable kill target.

Backstab got a buff, will see if it is enough or not.

A 16% damage buff isn't big enough and it's the wrong type, so no it's not good enough.

[Deleted]

Wait, I'm confused. Which is it, you know they are allowing full benefits for 2v2 or you don't see why they wouldn't allow full benefits. I'd love to see benefits for 2v2 again, but you first state it as a fact and then as an assumption, which is it?

I am 99.99% sure it will be back, blizzard hasn't confirmed it but there is a blue post that the penalty to 2v2 was ment as band aid fix for WotlK only.

---------- Post added 2010-07-23 at 11:29 PM ----------

Also it was actually a 6 second stun rather than a 10 second stun on a priest, but priests were so squishy if they couldn't trinket that and you could get 2/3 team members dpsing on them they dropped anyway. (Priest squishyness happens to be another thing Blizzard have... overlooked. Great healing and damage output when they aren't being trained in the latest Beta... not really fixing their problems, appreciated though it is, and I have lv 80 Dpriest) so if they fix that then shared DR without stun reduction talents doesn't sound like so much of a buff, but whatever.

It's not only stun reduction talents, it's also reduced damage while stunned and anti stun racials of orcs.

I am FOR cs being on the same dr as ks, however it has to come with a passive survivability buff, which atm we don't have. We have a HoT because they implemented it into the wrong preview and were too embarrassed to admit it. That is why I am quite pissed off about the removal of stunlocks, it was meant to be part of a compromise, instead we just got screwed over. Oh it's only ele shammies who have astral shift btw, and you can't really complain about them considering they spend so much more time stunned as they have shite mobility... at the moment. Also boomkins are bordering PvP viable as a result of the immense starfall buffs, once their cooldowns are gone they are what is known as walking honour/rating, and somehow feral druids are the spec I probably beat most, even though they all turtle in bear form lol.

I am probably only rogue out there who thinks improved recuperate is overpowered lol.

The point there wasn't a QQ about the Ice Barrier freeze, it was about the blink out of the stun before I've even been able to dent their hp, I'm snared, frozen and their 20 yards away. The only thing I can do from here is use a cooldown to prevent myself being pummelled by frost bolts. They have used nothing so far. The same problem applies with garrotte to open, except you stick a DoT on them (which is about as scary as summoning a Kobold to follow them with a shovel).

Use 90* degrees openers.

I've been reading everything I can about every class in Cata for the last weeks, and most hunters are really really not happy with the state of focus and how many things about it haven't been properly worked out yet. The last mana based talents have only just gone lol! So saying it has made them unstoppable is a bit steep, and you may have a hunter but the majority of hunter opinions at the moment is that a lot more work is needed on the focus system. Also remember the actual number crunching tends to be done towards the end of the Beta for classes where the exact niches of abilities is still being worked out, and for a class with such a system still being a major work in progress I can't see the numbers being the most important aspect to work on atm. still they look fun to play and I'm currently grinding full artifacts for my new Worgen Hunter (well, new come cata).

I for one don't care what "most hunters" say, because most hunters are shit at their class when it comes to PvP. Auto shot on the run, unending resources and awesome instant shots and massive damage is what makes MM amazing. TBC play style back? what were the major hunter problems? Damage on the move, being able to kite without help of your druid and going oom. All these are gone, Hunters in cataclysm are one of the best classes by far.

Double healer Shadowmourne, not double healer DK :P Their damage output without that weapon and lot's of PvE gear is abysmal and in double healer it's the mana burn that wins it, not the DK's pressure.

It's not only mana burn, it's the DK aswell. There is a reason double healer DK is better than double healer warrior, it's because the DK won't die, has decertion and chains spam + pet to keep target healer in combat. Burn of course is major factor of the settup.

All 3 specs are viable and great I know, the problem is in how and why: Elemental has next to no control or kiting, which is why it only works with other casters who can bring that. In return it's damage needs to go down and at the very best hero should only be like 15% in arenas.

Enhancement: This is typical Blizzard. Big shiny awesome button. 3 Minute cooldown. Unstoppable for 45 seconds. Crap for 135.

Resto the only advantage is heroism, well they have a lot of cool shizz but it's mainly heroism. If they toned heroism down to 15% then this could get some cool shizz.

I don't think shamans have any problems, but thats probably me.

A 16% damage buff isn't big enough and it's the wrong type, so no it's not good enough.

You also get 25% increased agility and hemorhage/backstab damage is increased by 25% aswell, just for chosing sub, honestly i think sub will be good enough. Thinking of this spec: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#fMhcZbZfGfdoucoho

Still hope they remove prep and elusiveness and balance CD's so all specs become viable in pvp, if they don't do this, sub will be the pvp spec, even if it's damage is lower.

[Tycho]

Isn't it always Cheap>nuke>Kidney>nuke>Gauge>regen>nuke>Blind&HealIfNeeded>nuke>Win? Every time? :P

[Deleted]

Isn't it always Cheap>nuke>Kidney>nuke>Gauge>regen>nuke>Blind&HealIfNeeded>nuke>Win? Every time? :P

What kind of baddies you fighting bro?