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  1. #1

    Discipline Renew idea, by Kel

    Okay, as many of you know and fear: When Kel gets Sleep Deprivation, weird ideas start coming out, many of which need to be put down and without mercy. Today is an exemplary case of such, as it was also coupled with a train malfunction on the way to work, and (for your absolute terror) I stumbled across an unsecured WiFi zone at work.

    Okay, so here it is;

    Renewed Barriers
    1 rank, Requires Divine Aegis
    Reduces the cost of your Renew by 10% and increases it's duration by 3 seconds. Whenever your Renew overheals on a target with Grace, 60% of that value is added to Divine Aegis on the target.

    This of course is factoring in the new Aegis formula going higher than 10625, at 85. It also gives Discipline a reason to use Renew on single target output, adding into its toolbox, and further emphasizing the balance between flowing from heals to absorbs, and back again. It also plays out quite differently from Holy, keeping the distinct feel of absorbs and efficiency that the spec was heralded for in 3.0-3.1

    I originally thought of removing Grace as a requirement, but then Discipline would spam Renews across a raid, and hell we don't even want Holy doing that anymore, given the new healing design.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 09:19 AM ----------

    So anyways, what're your thoughts?
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
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    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Given the new haste mechanics to Renew, this would be ridiculously overpowered in PvE. You could have, theoretically, one Aegis continue to stack uncontrollably until, eventually at some point, it finally breaks only to be replaced with another one that will end up having the same results.

    I certainly can see flaws. However, that being said, it's better than, say...Atonement, as it actually feels like a healing mechanic and not a "you're bored so go Smitespam til you're useful again" one.

  3. #3
    As long as a full renew ticking dosen't end up absorbing more than a PW:S, it could work. We don't want renew replacing shields.

    PS - that new avatar sucks =[

    Shadow Priest Main
    Originally Posted by Zarhym
    Your post is so drenched in frustration and sarcasm that it's really ruining my salad.

  4. #4
    It definitely needs work. Hell, remove it from Aegis, both as a talent requirement (shifting to Grace), and as an effective output. Make it not stack with itself (but prioritized above other absorbs). There are quite a few things that could be done to bring Renew into the fold like this, without being a Holy-lite version, and this was a way to do that.

    If it didn't stack with itself, one could view it as a faster proc'ing Sacred Shield, except that it an heal too.

    And Abb, you and Ronark with your Stargate avatars... (his is Atlantis). You both say the same thing! The he'll is wrong with Starbuck from BSG?

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 10:51 AM ----------

    Abb, I would like to add that spells can be allowed to out-absorb Power Word: Shield, as Blizzard isn't fond of one ability being the be-all-end-all of any spec.

    Should an absorb over time be added that could potentially out absorb Shield (not likely under my iteration of Renew), Shield is applied instantly and can return to being used to counter damage surges exceptionally well (or even used as GC said, going back to an emergency-type of spell that's not as heavily relied on). Such Absorb-Over-Time mechanics would also synergize well with other healers, as well as rounding out Discipline's toolbox.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  5. #5
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    I actually would love a talent that comes off of PoM rather than Renew, to be honest. While currently we can boost the effective healing of Renew, using it for any further functions requires us to stack a statistic that we don't need very much of (haste) to make it more effective. Even with BT being nerfed to 20%, our haste totals will be vastly lower as a requirement than other classes (unless the upcoming changes really do emphasize GH as our primary spell again, rather than Flash, which I know is likely going to be their intent).

    Something like this would be nice.

    (name TBD)

    Your Prayer of Mending has a 10/20% chance when healing a target to place Divine Aegis on the target, regardless of a critical healing effect. If this effect comes from a critical heal from Prayer of Mending, it instead increases both you and the target's haste by 30% for 8 seconds.

    For something based on Renew, I would instead like this.

    (name TBD)- requires Divine Aegis

    Your Renew now gains the ability to critically heal. In addition, each critical heal from Renew has a 50/100% chance to place Divine Aegis on the target.

    I do not recall if we gain automatic ability to crit heal with HoTs or not.

  6. #6
    All HoTs and DoTs will be able to crit, Fenix.

    This is me going off on a weird tangent, but how about this; Something along the lines of "Whenever your Renew overheals on a target with Grace, it reduces the duration of Weakened Soul on that target by 2/3 seconds."

  7. #7
    How about "Your renew ticks automatically crit when they heal a target with Grace who is already at full health"? That would proc Aegis on that tank.

    I think that if we could get it to that disc is using Renew on tanks frequently but rarely on anyone else it would be great. It'll be interesting to see what they do with Grace though. Grace could indeed be a good way to indicate that this is a tank that I'm healing, so you can let me cast PW:S more often on him or buff my Renew on him without breaking everything else. But only if the application of Grace becomes a little easier to manage than it is today. Heck, you could make only Renew and Greater Heal apply Grace.

    If you want to buff Prayer of Mending for tank healing perhaps an increased chance to crit on the initial target of the spell could just do it.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    2/3 might be a bit much given haste's effect on HoTs still. 1/2 sounds better, but I really like that idea.

  9. #9
    An intelligent thread! I'd love to join, but, alas, I know almost nothing of priests.

    This isn't meant to derail the thread: continue your brainstorming... I'll watch!

  10. #10
    All HoTs and DoTs are getting haste and crit, by default. Looking over these ideas is a little worrisome:

    First: Crits from periodic effects do NOT apply on crit abilities (Flame Shock, shadow dots, Living Bomb, and Rejuv should be proof enough).

    Second: auto-crit abilities horribly horribly skew stat values, and would make crit rating worse than what it is, when you're supposed to want a variety of stats (crit haste mastery and Spirit).

    Third: Heal is the new main spell, Greater's only when you need the oomph. Haste is invaluable for both of these spells for a noticabe contribution, let alone Borrowed Time will likely be nerfed (remain, but not at 25%).

    Abandon had an interesting mechanic, but I was intending on needing less Shield casts.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 03:13 PM ----------

    Abandon's mechanic runs into other problems: With more overheal from Renew, comes more Shielding. But wouldn't that additional shield cause more overheal, thus growing exponentially? I can see huge balance issues at any level of reduction, for both PvE and PvP.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  11. #11
    it'd be great if discs' renew (or renew crits) was able to "repair" pw:s while it's still up... while taking in account the absorb mastery bonus ofc.

    or maybe give it a 20% chance to proc of each tick, thus givin more value to haste & mastery which may both increase the number of renew ticks.
    Last edited by sacrypheyes; 2010-07-21 at 09:53 PM.

  12. #12
    True, I understand that there could be some issues if the tank was constantly being overhealed by Renew, but based on what we have seen of the new healing philosophy, it seems unlikely the tank will be spending all of their time at full health or dead as they are now. Also, this would only effect one person, your current healing target, since it would require grace.

    Also, keep in mind that even if you had the tank on full health for extended periods of time, they are scaling back how haste scales quite a lot, so we won't have a Renew ticking insanely fast. Weakened Soul lasts 15 seconds, and so say you got Renew down to tick every 2 seconds, you would have 8 possible ticks which can reduce the duration. With that in mind, it would probably be a lot more balanced at 0.5/1 second reduction, but this was just a random idea, not something I'd put a lot of thought into. If you have any ideas about tying it into different spells or just modifying the idea completely, feel free to gimmie suggestions.

    edit: Looking at this again, I can see how it could cause some problems if players start gearing and playing Disc around keeping the tank on full health at all times. Maybe if it were a lower chance, like 50% while on full health, or when your Renew Crits on a target with Grace, it would be better, since you wouldn't be able to gaurantee it happening.
    Last edited by Abandon; 2010-07-21 at 10:21 PM.

  13. #13
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Aren't there some abilities that reduce the cooldown, when procced, of other abilities? Like the old T10 4-pc, of sorts.

    Here's one then.

    Your Renew critical heals have a 10/20% chance to reset the cooldown of your Penance ability, and your Prayer of Mending has a 10/20% chance to reduce the cooldown on your Power Word: Barrier by 20 seconds.

    Doesn't involve Aegis or Shield, so it eliminates any possibility of "infinibubbles", and it's still a pretty fun talent I would think, as well as being useful.

  14. #14
    I like those ideas a lot Fenixdown - I've always liked the idea of spells triggering other spells (or making them more useful)... it creates a network of spells which is awesome.

    I also really like your idea Kel that you originally pitched. I love the idea of bringing Discipline's strengths to more spells, thus pidgeon-holing us less and also giving those spells another interesting mechanic. In fact, I have an even more crazy and probably bad idea:

    Renew overheals/crits create a shield, much like divine aegis, on the target that absorbs magic damage only. Divine Aegis works as it does now, but only absorbs physical damage.

    Now this idea would need tweeking, granted. But what do people think of giving discipline different TYPES of shields?

  15. #15
    what would be also lovely as disc spec would be to get a talent wich heals target for say, 15% (or more?) of damage absorbed by his abilities (pw:s, aegis, pw:b).

    ie : target shielded gets hit for 6k dmg which are absorbed by a pw:s, gets healed for 900.

    that could look like it's a 15% boost in disc "healing" but that's only the case if all his absorb effects are used, meaning a brainless pw:s spam won't make it efficient in every situation. (pw:s with 0 dmg absorbed = pure mana loss + no healing)

  16. #16
    The problem with this idea is that while intriguing it fixes the wrong thing. It makes renew better on fights where renew was bad, but on those fights heavy shield usage is likely to be superior.

    On aura fights, or other situations where shields are weak renew won't be overhealing much, so this won't be much of a buff, well beyond the extra 3 secs.

    Actually this mechanic would be better for holy, though for holy it should be renew overheal procing mini PoMs, the way that heal crits for disc proc mini-shields.

  17. #17
    Fenixdown: We had an RNG that refreshed spell cooldowns (Penance, Circle). The 4pc10 was exceptionally bad.

    Plus, having a "chance" to reduce the cooldown on Barrier sucks, because either you get it and you're like "omg badass" or you feel yourself ripped off because you can't use it when you need to.

    Nisala: The idea for magic-only (and physical only) absorbs unfortunately won't be taken very well. People would have to live and thrive with or without a Discipline Priest, so magic reduction like that may seem exceptionally useful (omg dargon breth), but then again your contribution by design has to be negligible, just for the sake of game-balance. Plus, once it comes down to it, it becomes "PvP points" or such minimal actual effect that you might as well be taking Spell Warding over Divine Fury kinda thing.

    I like the idea, don't get me wrong, but there are just too many things to work out right now. Oh, and there're already two things that handle your physical mitigation that you're looking for. They're called Armor, and Inspiration. Different Types of shields is good, but I think having an additional tool in general (like Renew/Mini AoTs) would help flesh it out more than specializing/dividing up what you already have.

    Az: There are three problems.
    One, the idea is linked to Grace (at least in both of my iterations, not sure about anybody else's), so it's not particularily countering an "aura fight" but it is helping you tank heal better.
    Two, regarding "heavy shield usage" being superior? Both Smart Healing and Blanket Whatever'ing (shields, hots, prayers, chains, hula hoops?) are being taken down in effectiveness, going back to Triage style healing where mana matters, overhealing matters because it's a waste of mana, and shielding blindly is likely going to screw a Priest over, no matter how "shield heavy" a fight may look.
    Three, Holy doesn't need another reason to cast Renew, they have Holy Concentration, Improved Renew, and Empowered Renew. We get that Holy can use it effectively. Holy also has a reason to cast Power Word: Shield, and that's for Body and Soul, even though Discipline has the "better" talents for it.

    This, on the other hand, gives Discipline another tool to put on their bars, make it situational but useful (even if it is just to help with tank healing), without feeling Holy-Lite, or diminishing another tool in some way/shape/form.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  18. #18
    This is by no means a solution Kelesti, but just a thought I had. Instead of triggering off of Grace, trigger off of melee hits (IE Tanks)

    "Whenever a target affected by your Renew suffers a melee hit, XXX% of the value of a Renew tick is added to the Divine Aegis on that target. This effect has a cooldown of Y seconds."

    Perhaps too overpowered? Health Pot proc basically.

  19. #19
    About the avatar, I dunno, just dosen't suit you! I liked the old pic of Daniel Jackson better, but couldn't find it after the forum change =P

    As for it being able to beat PW:S, there was a reasoning. PW:S is a mechinic designed completely around shielding. As soon as you let another spell originally designed for a completely different purpose to become better than it, even situationally, then PW:S (one of the iconic Disc abilities, apart from penance) becomes useless temoporarily.

    Shadow Priest Main
    Originally Posted by Zarhym
    Your post is so drenched in frustration and sarcasm that it's really ruining my salad.

  20. #20
    Kel - the problem with 4p t10 was that it procced only off FH. Most Holy priests don't really cast flash heal enough and since it was a cast time heal, the reset was almost insignificant for penance... If it was off renew crit ticks- that would have been another story. I would like to see something like that.
    Renew adding up to divine aegis is not a bad idea, but I think that it might promote the wrong kind of game play - you will be casting renew on your current healing target regardless in order to stack an as big DA as possible. I'm not sure that would be that great, not to mention it would be quite OP in PVP :P Same for the reduced weakened soul effect - if renew reduced that cooldown you'd be almost perma-bubbled...

    They really need to sort out the 6 talents renew thing though, by possibly adding a nice exciting ability that will make me want to spend 6 points for one spell. I wouldn't even mind if it procced a haste efect- casting 3 mana costy FH to then cast a 4th mana costy GH seems ridiculous in the future healing mentality...
    How about - Your renew critical heals have a chance to procc "Blessed renewal" increasing all healing recieved by the target by 3% and your direct heals have a 10% increased critical chance on the target. Stacks with other similar effects. No more than 3 Blessed Renewal effects can be active at a time, per priest.

    Would make renew a nice tank healing tool I think? 10% crit might be too high but considering it affects only direct heals, and that we lost the 5% crit from talents, it's not that bad.

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