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  1. #21
    @Abb, I think sacred shield actually out-does PW:S per 'cooldown' (weakened soul). So PW:S already has competition for being an awesome tank mechanic.
    It would also continue to be unique, being a big fat frontloaded bubble compared to the steady ticking nature of sacred shield and this renew concept.

    Since if you keep grace on an offtank, and roll renew on him indefinitely you'd have a whack-crack-omg bubble, I think it makes more sense to have it work ONLY on effective healing done by renew. Maybe have it be 30% or 40% of each tick.
    This also means that the renew ticks are most effective (providing absorbs) when they're most needed (the tank has a health deficit).

    Really cool idea though. I could see that making glyph of renew a pretty awesome tank healing glyph for disc.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysdexic View Post
    @Abb, I think sacred shield actually out-does PW:S per 'cooldown' (weakened soul). So PW:S already has competition for being an awesome tank mechanic.
    It would also continue to be unique, being a big fat frontloaded bubble compared to the steady ticking nature of sacred shield and this renew concept.

    Since if you keep grace on an offtank, and roll renew on him indefinitely you'd have a whack-crack-omg bubble, I think it makes more sense to have it work ONLY on effective healing done by renew. Maybe have it be 30% or 40% of each tick.
    This also means that the renew ticks are most effective (providing absorbs) when they're most needed (the tank has a health deficit).

    Really cool idea though. I could see that making glyph of renew a pretty awesome tank healing glyph for disc.
    And in pvp you can tank half the horde team with your "whack-crack-omg bubble" ? :P

  3. #23
    Renew adding to DA - big fan. Great idea. Synergy with Grace would provide a good balance.

    Procs for healing - hate it. A CD reset for something like PWB is different. It's like the current GS glyph. That works very well. But a proc for a spell with a CD <10seconds for heals doesn't work. Procs for DPS is great: it adds some fun and variety to the rotation. But for healing, the choice of spell more dependent on what type of heal is needed, not whether a spell is ready or not. It's why Surge of Light is such a bad talent currently. Even if it's a free spell, why would you choose to cast a critless FH when there are much better things to cast?

  4. #24
    Look at it this way, cruxxy:

    If Glyph of Guardian Spirit was this:
    "If your Prayer of Mending heals a target with Guardian Spirit, you have a 30% chance to reduce the cooldown to 1 minute".

    Quite frankly, it'd be pure shite. For cooldowns, they're unreliable. For general healing, I couldn't have said it better in that "what type of heal is needed, not whether a spell is ready or not".

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-22 at 12:05 PM ----------

    Anyways, second iteration of this talent:

    Renewed Defenses:
    1 Rank, Requires Grace.
    Reduces the cost of your Renew by 10% and increases it's duration by 3 seconds. Whenever your Renew overheals on a target with Grace, 60% of that overheal value becomes an absorb for the next damage taken for 8 seconds.

    Glyph of Renewed Defenses:
    Major (not Prime) Glyph
    Your Renewed Defense directly stacks into Divine Aegis.

    It needs to require Grace, otherwise it'll be raid-wide and that's just bad. It needs to not involve Power Word: Shield, and bring another tool in (thus Renew). It needs to feel different than anything currently in-game. I also wanted to stick with overheal, so that we don't have the 3.0 thinking of "well unless it does 0 overheal I'm better casting Flash anyways".

    That's also why I went with 60% of overheal, and not 100%. If it ticks, it'll do more than if it doesn't. If you get a half tick, you still get some absorbs tacked onto it too. But if it's overheal, it's still a spell that's possibly worth casting, because you'll have to use the GCD to maintain it (unlike Holy's Heal chakra, or Druid's Nourish refreshing Lifebloom).

    So excluding procs (which by default suck), how would you see this different, without pushing more and more reliance on Power Word: Shield (the spec is supposed to be more than a 1-trick pony, I mean come on)..
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  5. #25
    I'd rather go with a separate absorb effect then and not use Divine Aegis at all. Otherwise when you meet a disc priest in a battleground he'll have a full-stacked Aegis on him from the start since he's running around with a Renew at all times (even if it'll be annoying for him to keep Grace up it will be done). It's better if this absorb doesn't stack then, or if it does stack but falls off completely when the Renew ends or something.

  6. #26
    That's kinda what I was thinking, really. But if it was given the option (a la new "Major" middle-category glyphs) to use Aegis instead of a Sacred-Shield type of absorb (but weaker conversion, like only 30% overheal transferred?) that could be an option?

    And Ananan, people can start fights with a full 10k Aegis as it is now. :P
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2010-07-22 at 07:11 PM.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  7. #27
    somehow relying on renew overheal feels bad because you can't make sure this renew won't be overwritten by another priest. should he be holy specced that his will probably be more powerfull than yours and you can't expect him not to use it on your grace-d target.

    and if bliz succeed in making encounters that won't let players at full health most of the time (think i saw some blue saying that'd be their goal), that'd mean on the other hand that renew may not overheal that much, thus no much use of having such talent.

    taking these in account, one of the best solutions to give renew more use as disc would be to maybe give it, say :
    -20% chance per tick to add an aegis of the same value of the renew tick. (could be pretty sick though if renew ticks can innately crit)
    -20% chance per tick to add an aegis with an absorb value based on caster's int score (seems more fair imo)

    or maybe a disc version of empowered renew :
    -you renew spell will instantly shield the target for 20% of its total periodic effect (let's not forget that shields are increased by mastery)
    Last edited by sacrypheyes; 2010-07-22 at 07:54 PM.

  8. #28
    Renew Ticks can innately crit, but they won't provide Divine Aegis from that crit. 20% chance per tick seems a little "meh" on a talent/ability designed to reliably soften incoming damage, whether it's from Int Score (which is the new Spell Power) or the tick itself. Empowered Shielding Renew seems really really dumb, to be honest.

    I hadn't forgotten about the Discipline Mastery boosting up Power Word: Shield, Divine Aegis, and Barrier. If this was a fourth absorb created, it wouldn't be that big of a stretch to add it into that.

    But what the frak are you talking about, some Renew over-writing another Renew? That hasn't happened since Vanilla. Two Druids can Regrowth/Rejuvenation/Lifebloom (hell and even Wild Growth) the same target, so can Priests. This has been standard for so long, why would you be worried about it now? It doesn't matter if another Priest is Holy, Shadow, Discipline, or Tri/Unspecced. His Renew would never over-write yours.

    I agree in that I haven't looked at much of the "If players aren't going to be at full health" aspect. This was just to bring something to the table for Renew that was different, felt different, because without it there will guaranteed be some level where Renew just isn't worth the Global Cooldown. That happened to Discipline in blue gear, for crying out loud, when Flash Heal cost the same mana, returned mana, crit for more and potentially returned more mana, and had all of its healing "right now when you need it".

    Aegis could potentially work (as could a 4th absorb altogether), but not on a random chance. PROc's suck from a healer's point of view, and always will.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  9. #29
    Unfortunately, a lot of this seems to be cool things that make up for overhealing. Blizz is trying to Gotcha healers for overhealing in cata.

    Instead I say implement this in next tuesdays maintenance

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivicen View Post
    Instead I say implement this in next tuesdays maintenance
    I approve.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    And Ananan, people can start fights with a full 10k Aegis as it is now. :P
    Yes but as opposed to people rolling a renew on themselves to keep that bubble up all the time ( renew is an instant cast ya' know) they actually have to spam cast themselves, which is not really possible or likely in a pvp environment. A passive hot that you cast and forget until it's almost run out to then recast cannot add to any absorbs exactly because of this.. it is way too easy for it to become OP in pvp.

  12. #32
    Okay then, axe the Aegis implementation! Keep the Sacred-Shield effect that doesn't stack?
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  13. #33
    Now it has to be bigger, or else be so insignificant as to be useless.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Okay then, axe the Aegis implementation! Keep the Sacred-Shield effect that doesn't stack?
    Don't get me wrong I am not against some sort of buff to renew that would make Disc priests find it attractive to use. Not even close. I strongly hope they will give renew some sort of nifty buff besides the stupid empowered renew effect that will make those 6 talent points worth spending ( because with the reduced talent points we have now it really is extremely expensive to buff one spell).
    I'd just like a buff to renew that will make all priests happy to use it - how I see it is: with a resto druid rolling his hots on the tank (full lifeblooms too) and the fact that you will have to worry about mana, renew will become kind of unattractive to use for all priests unless it gives some sort of buff without making it overpowered in PvP, because you do have to consider that aspect as well.
    I gave an example earlier -Your crit renews proc a 3% increased healing recieved (from all sources, stacks with grace) and 10% crit chance to your direct healing spells for 20 seconds- limited to 3 targets. It was just an example, but there are numerous other ways to make it viable and interesting to both specs without making it OP.

  15. #35
    Sorry if a similar idea has been mentioned, but I just thought I'd add my take on this:

    Name TBD - Whenever your Renew spell overheals a shielded target, it allows the shield to absorb an additional amount of damage equal to x% of the extra healing. This effect cannot increase the amount of damage absorbed by more than y% of the shield's normal absorption amount.

    This idea would work as an opener, but would otherwise be problematic; if the enemy's hitting hard enough to break the shield, you'll need to worry more about the health. If it's not hitting hard enough, it may be a waste of mana.
    God damn those casuals and their utter refusal to ever complain as much as the so-called hardcores.

  16. #36
    Come to think about it, maybe Blizzard will have to worry about Renew and Divine Aegis regardless. When a Renew tick crits it will proc DA (I assume, since it doesn't say direct heals only). After that point you have 12 seconds to get another crit or the DA falls off, i.e. at least 4 more Renew ticks. If you can get to a 30% crit chance that will be a 76% chance that at least one of those 4 ticks crit, and then it starts over. Maybe tanks will run around with Renew on them between pulls just for that, and maybe disc priests will in BGs too.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigawolf1 View Post
    Sorry if a similar idea has been mentioned, but I just thought I'd add my take on this:

    Name TBD - Whenever your Renew spell overheals
    stopped reading at that point. once again, i'm pretty confident that bliz will never implement a talent that will encourage overhealing, pretty much the opposite.

    try again.

  18. #38
    Ananan, the reason it doesn't say "direct heals only" is because up until this point, Renew has never been allowed to crit, so it was a moot point. Out of every spec that has DoTs that could crit (and even Druids when they had Rejuv crit set bonus) a periodic effect does not trigger "on-critical" effects.

    Sacrypheyes, Dianthe, you aren't looking at the big picture. They want spell choice to matter, targeting choices to matter, and not just fruitless spamming. But Nourish refreshing Lifebloom is cheaper than recasting Lifebloom, as is Heal Chakra refreshing Renew. Discipline doesn't have one of these, but it doesn't need or even want one of these, because HoTs can be done, but that's not its "thing".

    Look at it this way: Unless Renew lasts one minute for Discipline, or its ticks are tripled in output, in its current form it will never be used on a tank. They can't guarantee it won't overheal, it's crits won't process Aegis, and a Heal will heal for 2/3 of a Renew and does take advantage of everything your toolkit offers, plus costing 1/2 the mana.

    Blizzard wants overheal to matter, yes, but that means spamming heals on targets that don't need them, or mass HoT'ing/Shielding, or even using greater heal when a Heal alone would've sufficed. A HoT tick overhealing on a single target (as was my restriction with Grace) solves the issue of putting it on Diacipline bars without requiring 100% effectiveness to actually be worth the time/mana.

    Because even if Renew's base output is buffed, there will always be a certain gear/content level that just makes it not worth the mana/time to put it up. In Wrath, that gear level was blues.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  19. #39
    i do agree with you that bliz would like to push us healers to put more thinking before we use one spell or another instead of playing a whack-a-mole game at which the fastest would be the winner.

    but i just can't help myself thinking that having renew overheals create aegis is just wrong because it would push players to use it in any situation, wether renew was the right spell to use or not.
    1-player isn't at full heath : he's healed as usual
    2-renew tick overheals : he gets a free shield

    there's then about no situation where you wouldn't want to spam renews and constantly spamming'em up in order to build bigger and bigger aegis while they take no dmg.

  20. #40
    It filling up Aegis was the original idea, but it was bad. But you can't spam it because a) It requires Grace (which can only be on one target) and b) the buff it gives wouldn't roll, stack, or cap. It'd be like Sacred Shield, a little tick every three seconds, unless it actually gets to heal (which is better than the shield in the first place). If the absorb isn't used, it'd be overwritten. Overall, beneficial in "rounding out" or "smoothing damage", just in a sustainable single-target sense, instead of bursty, and a boon to the spec.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

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