1. #2101
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark View Post
    Inc T13 4pc bonus.
    Don't be insane, Ronark! That's T-15's 2-piece bonus, and will be nerfed two weeks into the new patch 5.1 raid, 'Return of the Lich King'.
    --------

    Just Thought I'd leave this here...

    Templar's Verdict

    "An instant weapon attack that causes a percentage of weapon damage, and inflicts the target with a Verdict from on-high. Consumes all charges of Holy Power to increase damage dealt:

    1 Holy Power: 30% Weapon Damage + 10% additional damage as holy damage over 6-10 seconds
    2 Holy Power: 110% Weapon Damage + 20% additional damage as holy damage over 6-10 seconds
    3 Holy Power: 225% Weapon Damage + 30% additional damage as holy damage over 6-10 seconds."


    Divine/Righteous/Holy Verdict of Divine/Righteous/Holy Justice

    "Deals 10%/20%/30% holy damage over 6-10 seconds. The effect grows more intense as it reaches its duration, and when it reaches its duration it explodes, dealing a percentage of the damage dealt over its duration as holy damage."

    Mileage may vary, and the numbers can be tweaked, of course. The damage it deals could be much smaller. This is just an idea I pose to make Templar's Verdict more optimal at only 3-HoPow, add some flavor and interest to it (because it is pretty bland though, no?), and this, like the other suggestion in the OP, makes a step toward making Haste a superior stat over Crit', and an attempt at placing it inline with Mastery.

    As always, any ideas, comments, and suggestions are welcome. If anyone happens to be reading, let's keep this thread rolling!
    From the other thread. An idea I proposed therein. Explanation follows:

    For the time being, it's both of those reasons. Less HoPow is wasted due to the delay, but even if Divine Purpose were functioning properly and didn't suffer the proc delay, it's would still be better because, for one, as you stated, there are fewer holes in the rotation, meaning essentially more activity, and activity in this case = DPS. And there isn't too great a difference betwixt Templar's Verdict at 2-HoPow as opposed to 3-HoPow for there to be a significant loss. If the gaps are closed enough, and you manage two Templar's Verdicts in a similar time-frame it took to build up for one, the damage is lessened slightly, but the additional activity is better for sustained DPS. Either Templar's Verdict is changed to deal significantly more high-end damage 3-HoPow rather in contrast to 2-HoPow, we're less inclined to play that way. On the other hand, another idea is to implement a DoT (Righteous Vengeance?) that 'rolls' and crits like a Warlock's into Templar's Verdict that instead rewards players for using Templar's Verdict with 3-HoPow. This implementation helps allay many issues: It gives Haste more appeal, encourages the player to use Templar's Verdict at maximum strength, and gives the strike a lot more flavor. It's balanceable, manageable, fun, and would make Templar's Verdict far more dangerous in PvP, totally worth attempting to pull off in a duel situation. The DoT could also have interesting interactions.
    Last edited by The Good Captain; 2010-09-21 at 10:44 PM.
    A voice replied...

    "Not by the hair on my Wrynny chin chin."

    And then Varian Chintercepted Garrosh's cast, then sliced the orcs head off. 24 hours later he was found riding Deathwing over Orgrimmar, burning the city to the ground, laughing maniacally.

  2. #2102
    I know blizzard has multiple teams working on multiple things but....

    Am i the only one who gets upset seeing things like

    Originally Posted by Nethaera (Source)
    We're pleased to announce a new feature being added to the Mobile Armory: Guild Chat!

    Coming soon in an update to the Mobile Armory app available in the iTunes App Store (http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...321057000&mt=8 ) and Android Market, this new feature will allow all World of Warcraft Remote subscribers the ability to chat with their guildies right from their mobile device. Access to the guild chat feature is included for no extra charge in the $2.99 World of Warcraft Remote Auction House ( http://www.wowarmory.com/wow-remote.xml ) premium monthly subscription. In addition, soon after the launch of the mobile version we're planning on adding the ability for premium subscribers to use Guild Chat through any browser on the Armory website.

    Guild Chat will allow you to chat with your guildmates via Guild Chat, Officer Chat, and Whispers. Now you can stay connected with your guild or update them from anywhere if you're going to be late to a raid! Stay tuned for additional information about this service and the upcoming Mobile Armory Guild Chat beta test.

    When ret pallies are basically dead in the water with no real light at the end of the tunnel and no real updates since shortly before the ptr went live.
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want.* If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money; but what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I've acquired over a very long career, skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.* If you let my daughter go now that will be the end of it.* I will not look for you, i will not pursue you but if you don't;* I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.

  3. #2103
    Quote Originally Posted by Munk View Post
    I know blizzard has multiple teams working on multiple things but....

    Am i the only one who gets upset seeing things like

    Originally Posted by Nethaera (Source)

    When ret pallies are basically dead in the water with no real light at the end of the tunnel and no real updates since shortly before the ptr went live.
    I don't think the two issues are related even remotely. Or that even the same development team made it.
    A voice replied...

    "Not by the hair on my Wrynny chin chin."

    And then Varian Chintercepted Garrosh's cast, then sliced the orcs head off. 24 hours later he was found riding Deathwing over Orgrimmar, burning the city to the ground, laughing maniacally.

  4. #2104
    Quote Originally Posted by The Good Captain View Post
    I don't think the two issues are related even remotely. Or that even the same development team made it.
    I see what you did there!

  5. #2105
    Quote Originally Posted by The Good Captain View Post
    I don't think the two issues are related even remotely. Or that even the same development team made it.
    I get that, and even said as much in my post. I just hate that they are spending resources to push out an external communication system for wow when were what 2-3 months away from Cata's launch with a broken spec. Its just irritating to me to see posts like that when tuning and balance are what should (in my mind) be the primary news worthy items comming from Blizz.

    Its not like the extra income from this app/service will suddenly allow blizzard to finally hire enough devs to properly balance the various classes currently present in the game.

    I just find it irritating is all... wtb ptr/beta update.
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want.* If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money; but what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I've acquired over a very long career, skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.* If you let my daughter go now that will be the end of it.* I will not look for you, i will not pursue you but if you don't;* I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.

  6. #2106
    Quote Originally Posted by Munk View Post
    I just find it irritating is all... wtb ptr/beta update.
    This new app' update is clearly greater than all of WoW and WoW's expansions combined. ':\
    A voice replied...

    "Not by the hair on my Wrynny chin chin."

    And then Varian Chintercepted Garrosh's cast, then sliced the orcs head off. 24 hours later he was found riding Deathwing over Orgrimmar, burning the city to the ground, laughing maniacally.

  7. #2107
    High Overlord
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    On the PTR I don't notice my dmg go up when I activate my auras. Is that portion of Communion working for anyone else?

  8. #2108
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf View Post
    If Blizz finds that Inquisition is too powerful in that situation iktankniet, it would be an easy fix, decrease Inquisition's potency. I still think we need a talent to make Templar's Verdict refresh Inquisition, to me its a pretty obvious change that needs to happen.
    Perhaps we'll end up seeing some decent glyphs such as that. Though I don't expect it as it's one of our new things that we do...

    My personal choice... Glyph of the Heavens: The stars align and you are less prone to RNG failure.

  9. #2109
    Quote Originally Posted by JackalopeSpam View Post
    Perhaps we'll end up seeing some decent glyphs such as that. Though I don't expect it as it's one of our new things that we do...

    My personal choice... Glyph of the Heavens: The stars align and you are less prone to RNG failure.
    id rather them back of damage, and make all those 40%s turn into 100%.
    Pondering returning.
    Nikoll - Retribution Paladin

  10. #2110
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikoll View Post
    id rather them back of damage, and make all those 40%s turn into 100%.
    I second that, so many of our problems would be solved if they would just make divine purpose have a 100% chance to generate holy power when judgment, exorcism & hammer of wrath are used. It would make our self healing & damage much more in line with other classes and get rid of some of the over abundant RNG that makes our class more about luck then skill on the current beta/PTR.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  11. #2111
    Im really worried about blizzard lack of replies to all those feedback posts on foruns. The build is bad, many unfinished talents, numbers still not ajusted, lots of bugs, and they say nothing.

    I belive is better we all just be prepared to be complete Junk in the first months after release, maybe after that they will properly fix us.

  12. #2112
    I am no number cruncher, but I hit the dummy on live for a while... several minutes, enough to use wings a few times... just my own buffs, no flasks, etc, and sustained about 4600 DPS. (gear is Shadow's Edge, mix of 264/251 gear from ICC 10, 10H, and 25, about 5800 GS)

    Copied it to the PTR and in the current PTR build I was able to hit about 4100 sustained, same conditions. I have a horrible neck, the agi one from POS, so I know that's hurting me on PTR, as well as having a missing gem in my Libram. I reforged off excess hit and a little crit for mastery to get that around 10.6%

    Funny thing, I tried again on PTR and decided to try to get a consecrate down from time to time (first time I didn't at all, nor did I use Divine Storm at all on the PTR dummy either time), and my DPS actually dropped significantly.

    I've obviously got to find that missing 500 or so DPS, though -- in ICC 25 on a DPS meter boss like Festergut, I'm usually in between 11k and 13k, and I would certainly be bummed if A) 4.0.1 runs into ICC were seeing <10k DPS, and if B) that proportion drop (and the effect it had on where I fit for the raid in DPS) were to accurately reflect how Ret will perform in Cataclysm.

    I keep reminding myself... no Inquisition yet, no Guardian, it's not the whole picture. But it is troubling. What are other people finding so far?

    On the dummy (and I also try to simulate mechanics by having to run behind it or something), I've been mainly aiming for CS-CS-CS-Verd-CS-CS-CS-Verd and filling in cooldown gaps with judgment and art of war procs of Exorcism. When they are cooled down, I'll build up three holy power, and then go Avenging Wrath-Zealotry, and pretty much CS-Verd-CS-Verd and not risk going for a judgment or Exorcism unless the CD gap is obvious. And, of course, also watching for HoL procs (really nice to hit three full power Templar's Verdicts in a row).

    Is that similar to how other people are building this? Are Avenging Wrath and Zealotry maybe not good to pair in that way, would rotating them sustain higher DPS?

  13. #2113
    I have similar gear to you Stormdash, although by using only plate gear I'm sporting more 251 gear then 10manHeroic 264 gear (I don't run 25man), and use a 264 pvp wep. Unbuffed/flasked/fed with no external debuffs, I do around 4700-4850 DPS Live.

    On the PTR my DPS started around the same as yours, and has slowly increased as I've become more comfortable with the new priority and DP procs. My best unbuffed DPS so far has been just under 4600 DPS (again no external debuffs, hardly anyone in Silvermoon!). For the current CD's, I've found that Zealotry is only a DPS increase if either I can use it with my trinket procs (I'm using DMC:G Str and WFS Normal) or I can get 3 HoPo, use it, then use AW and Lifeblood (for 240 haste rating) and make a rotation of CS -> Tv -> HoW -> CS -> TV -> Holy Wrath/Exo if possible.

    The rest of the time, I've found that Zealotry is a DPS loss or makes no difference to DPS, add in that Mastery is destroying Zealotry more by granting 3 HoPo on a short-term heavy HoPo rotation. Zealotry would feel much better if Divine Purpose procs still helped for damage, two ideas off the top of my head are:

    1) Zealotry causes DP to have a 100% chance to proc (I imagine this may have already been suggested)
    2) Increase the CD of CS, boost the DP proc chance, or make less abilities have 100% chance to grant HoPo, the idea being that you can CS -> 3HoPo TV -> Filler -> Filler -> Filler -> 3HoPo TV -> CS -> TV

    I've also tested the reforging, and went for a Crit -> Mastery mass conversion. The results were iffy, and over 5 million damage I ended up with a DPS loss over using Crit. The conversion changed roughly 28% crit to 19% and 8% mastery to 16%. Burst damage was nice, I started with several HoL procs, providing a sweet 5.8k DPS, which swiftly dropped to 4.2k when I lost out on a lot of TV crits. My tests ended with an average of 4350DPS.

  14. #2114
    I've been thinking that mastery/haste would start to pull away from crit as a priority for Ret... but really, it's hard to tell at level 80 what this is really gonna be worth.

    I actually wasn't using hammer of wrath at all in my PTR test, even though it would light up for me. I'm realizing I screwed up; they've changed that to be usable on a proc basis regardless of enemy health, or something like that? I just assumed the boss dummy HP was bugged or something and ignored it to simulate "middle of a fight" DPS.

    My trinkets are Herkumi and (sigh) Needle-Encrusted Scorpion (although how much nicer is that trinket as a haste proc?). I'm glad I wasn't crazy to feel underwhelmed by Zealotry. If they want Zealotry to be a one-man bloodlust, which feels like what it's for, maybe they should have it also reduce the cooldown on CS while active (rather than a general haste buff for everything).

  15. #2115
    wish i could give some more accurate input on the dps matter but since the latest ptr I have been unable to copy over my toon and keep the berserking enchant on SE. but Im still donig 4800 (little more) without it on ptr.

    also something I noticed while reforging between mastery and haste, is that with focusing on haste and doing no mastery while my end dps didn't go up the dps range I did during the fight (view graph in recount) had a lower variance range. ie instead of going from (exammple) a low of 3k to a high of 7k I would go from a low of 4k and a high of 6k while keeping the same end dps value. so it seems haste will vastly help the variance in dps we will most likely see with the currnet build and Im assuming this is due to more hp generation from CS and less from rng as I cs more (with jotp and all haste reforge no master I have ~840 haste rating which yeilds something like 26% haste and a 3.3 cs cd.

    Edit: just remembered, need to mention that none of these runs were using AW or Zeal just straight dpsing

    also of note is that the haste rating was changed to 32.79 (ie pre patch 3.1 numbers)rating = 1% for melee (not the 25.22 rating = 1% on live) and hit rating seems to have changed for melee too (on live I have 8.1% and on ptr it was at 8.63 before reforging some off). haven't checked crit ratings yet.

    and if anyone could provide some rating conversions at 85 I'd very much appreciate it (want to do some handwaving with numbers)
    Last edited by Alenko; 2010-09-22 at 07:02 PM.

  16. #2116
    The mention of Zealotry as a one-man Bloodlust reminded me that Zealotry should be wonderful under BL, the haste should easily push CS to 3seconds CD or under with Judgements of the Pure. I would imagine the best possible outcome for us during fights would be to get Inq up, BL gets hit, AW + GoaK (does GoaK get buffs from BL, or is the non-targetable thing mean buffs do not affect him?) after AW ends, Zeal for CS -> TV spam. This is of course without looking at any numbers, just an assumption.

    I plan on reforging again to aim for max haste and see how that changes thing, with Crit and Mastery, Censure (DoT) was already one of the best abilities for me, coming in fourth at roughly 13% damage. Haste should also benefit the top 3 damage dealers, TV, Melee and Crusader Strike.

  17. #2117
    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Castle View Post
    The mention of Zealotry as a one-man Bloodlust reminded me that Zealotry should be wonderful under BL, the haste should easily push CS to 3seconds CD or under with Judgements of the Pure. I would imagine the best possible outcome for us during fights would be to get Inq up, BL gets hit, AW + GoaK (does GoaK get buffs from BL, or is the non-targetable thing mean buffs do not affect him?) after AW ends, Zeal for CS -> TV spam. This is of course without looking at any numbers, just an assumption.

    I plan on reforging again to aim for max haste and see how that changes thing, with Crit and Mastery, Censure (DoT) was already one of the best abilities for me, coming in fourth at roughly 13% damage. Haste should also benefit the top 3 damage dealers, TV, Melee and Crusader Strike.
    why not use AW and Zeal at the same time? jw

  18. #2118
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenko View Post
    why not use AW and Zeal at the same time? jw
    In BL, you'll never be able to use HoW if you use both at the same time. In unbuffed dummy tests, I've found that forgetting Zeal and simply using AW as a DPS CD, I find more DPS. In the end, I suppose it depends how much TV scales with buffs/debuffs compared to HoW, if the 20% from AW causes such an increase in TV damage that HoW becomes so relatively weak, then AW + Zeal would be best.

  19. #2119
    Thread's been dead all day, so I thought I'd post my suggestions.

    Templar's Verdict's damage percentages could be changed to:

    "1 HoPow - 30% damage
    2 HoPow - 90% damage
    3 HoPow - 225% damage"
    Just an example, of course. Though it looks off-kilter, nobody in their right mind would use it any other time than when we have 3-HoPow stacked and ready. But then, there's...

    Templar's Verdict

    "An instant weapon attack that causes a percentage of weapon damage, and inflicts the target with a Verdict from on high. Consumes all charges of Holy Power to increase damage dealt:

    1 Holy Power: 30% Weapon Damage + 10% additional damage as holy damage over 6-10 seconds
    2 Holy Power: 110% Weapon Damage + 20% additional damage as holy damage over 6-10 seconds
    3 Holy Power: 225% Weapon Damage + 30% additional damage as holy damage over 6-10 seconds.
    "

    Verdict

    "Deals 10%/20%/30% holy damage over 6-10 seconds. The effect grows more intense as it reaches its duration. When it reaches its duration it explodes, dealing a percentage of the damage dealt over the duration as holy damage."
    It plays off of Templar's Verdict's name by applying a holy DoT called Verdict. In PvE, as the DoT starts rolling, the damage would increase slowly, and in PvP, It gives our opponents more reason to prevent us getting that Templar's Verdict off, and if we do, they must focus on dispelling it or having it dispelled, allowing the paladin some breathing room to pull something else off, or commence the next part of a clever strategy.
    --------

    Divine Purpose

    "Grants your Judgement a 50%/100% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power and your Exorcism a 50%/00% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power when Art of War is consumed."
    --------

    Sanctity of Battle

    "Your melee-haste receives double/triple the benefit from Haste effects it normally would. In addition, Haste effects lower/significantly lower the cooldown of your Crusader Strike."
    Or something like that.
    --------

    And lastly, a modification to Inquiry of Faith. It adds a function similar to Unholy deathknights' former Necrosis talent, so it's been done before, but adds a bit more depth and interest to the spec', and would also be reliant on Inquisition--which has begun to lose its place with recent changes--for maximum damage.

    Inquiry of Faith

    "Your auto-attacks, Crusader Strike, and Templar's Verdict deal 10%/20%/30% additional damage as holy damage and increases the periodic damage done by your Seal of Truth by [10%/20%/30%]. In addition, increases the duration of your Inquisition by [50%/100%/150%]."
    What do you think? Before we see 'OP; GG', consider our present state on the PTRs and beta, and know that balance only usually ever requires a few number tweaks here and there, some pruning there. I just want to see the spec fun and exciting, Templar's Verdict only viable at 3-HoPow, HoPow generation more fluid (a wee less RNG), Haste to be truly worth it, and Inquisition reseated as core to maximized activity and DPS.


    EDIT: Instead of Zealotry, how about group-utility? Our burst, damage, and DPS can be handled by the tree itself. It could follow the class' theme. Not like we don't have enough buttons to push during BL, anyway, amirite?
    Transplendence

    "The paladin calls upon the Light to aid his/her allies, granting all attacks made by the party/raid the capacity to heal each player for 30% of all damage dealt. Lasts 20-30 seconds."

    Anyone else feel changes like these would be a step in the right direction? Just looking for feedback.
    Last edited by The Good Captain; 2010-09-25 at 08:08 PM.
    A voice replied...

    "Not by the hair on my Wrynny chin chin."

    And then Varian Chintercepted Garrosh's cast, then sliced the orcs head off. 24 hours later he was found riding Deathwing over Orgrimmar, burning the city to the ground, laughing maniacally.

  20. #2120
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Must say I like your ideas goodcaptain, I have a few suggestions though.

    For Templar's verdict, it may be better to have Templar's verdict change a % of its damage done to holy based on the number of holy power charges consumed instead of placing a dot since dots will brake CC. (this could be changed if they made all CC remove dots when placed on an enemy).

    For Divine purpose, it may be a good idea if they also had hammer of wrath create a charge of holy power when the target was under 20% or when under the effects of avenging wrath. As is HOW is barely worth using over other abilities because while its damage may scale well it simply slows down using our next Templar's verdict which hurts our dps in the long run.

    For sanctity of battle, the haste bonus may be a bit much. as is we will want a decent amount of haste anyway & when raid/group buffed up we should be damn close to a 3 second CD on crusader strike.

    For inquiry of faith, the additional holy damage on every attack may be a bit much especially if we get some of the other changes like to divine purpose & Templar's verdict. Perhaps if they had it increase all seal damage by 10-20-30% & give seals double damage when your critically strike or double seal damage on special attacks.


    As for my last suggestion, I am with allot of the posters in that Zealotry should really be worth having as a 31 point talent. Perhaps if they made it cost no holy power to use then convert a set % of all damage we do to holy damage or if they made it so it took no holy power to activate & caused all word of glory casts, inquisition casts & Templar's verdicts act as if we had full holy power for the next X seconds. (this would let us spam heals or Templar's verdicts in a bad situation).
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

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