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  1. #1
    Titan Synthaxx's Avatar
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    Holy Discussion - Build 12539+

    This is a new thread for discussion on the new Holy Paladin Tree we saw implemented in beta build 12539. Please post all comments related to the tree here as the old thread is now merely a reference (although not locked).

    Original Thread - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ysm-Discussion
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  2. #2
    I wonder exactly how Holy Power works, and what Holy is supposed to do with it.

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Elovan's Avatar
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    Well currently we get it with Holy Shock (which is looking to be a very useful spell, gives Holy Power and gives spell haste to FoL, HL, and DL) and we use it for Word of Glory, an instant mana free heal. However, at least in the last build Holy Power was also used to decrease HL's cast time by 33/66/100%, but I doubt that'll make it. We do need more places to use it though.

  4. #4
    Reposting this in the new thread:

    Some interesting things coming out today, some things I like and some things I don't but I can partly understand why it has been done.

    Lets start with the bad.

    Firstly Beacon of Light, it has basically been murdered. You can't heal the raid and keep the tank up anymore with it. There reasoning for this would surely be that they have given us more raid healing utillity however the two new AoE spells we get, Healing Hands and Light of Dawn are on long cooldowns, 1 min (30 seconds with talents) and 30 seconds respectively, and to me does'nt really justify the nerf to Beacon of Light. This means we are taking a step backwards to TBC days and just healing the tank with beacon on the off-tank or sponge and helping out with raid healing every 30 seconds.

    The new talent Tower of Radience is even more of a failure. Blizzard have said they wanted us to have more utility and be able to raid heal and yet here is a talent that promotes the healing of just one target. Fights will consist of spamming the tank and then using the holy power when it is charged. This truely is TBC gameplay reborn.

    Holy Paladins lose Divine Sacrifice now, that skill was awesome for fights with large spikes in raid damage.

    On the positive side.

    The new talent trees are nice. Blizzard did well in the fact that for the first time I couldn't see the cookie cutter spec straight away. The Holy tree is very cookie cutter but there is quite a bit of choce between whether to spec into protection (for healing increase) or retribution (for increased crit).

    I am kind of confused by the Denounce talent in the Holy tree, critical spells give us an instant cast, free exorsism spell. This might be to do with mana regeneration, we will have to see.

    31/8/2 - Holy/Protection

    31/0/10 - Holy/Retribution

    ----------------------------------------------

    At the moment, my gut instinct is that I hate these changes and think this is going to make Holy Paladins such a boring class to play. It seems that all the other healing classes are getting new dimensions to the way they play......we are getting sent back to TBC.

    Just as well I started leveling a Priest, these changes fill me with nothing but fear and dread.

  5. #5
    I don't see the worry about a 50% Beacon. Yes, currently we are two tank healers. We are balanced around keeping two tanks alive and have "some" AoE healing by beaconing a tank and healing around when there is not second tank. But Beacon is currently waaaaaay overpowered.

    And that isn't a problem in current world, because tankdamage is balanced around paladins tankhealing. But they want switching around healers to be easier ("bring the player, not the class" This might have been true for DPS in Wrath, but it wasn't for healers.) if someone isn't online, etc. etc. That means Beacon needs to be nerfed from creating tanks immortal, to being more like Lifebloom; a very powerfull HoT.

    Tower of Radiance fits in this new healing style and in the new healing environment. If tanks don't die every second, all healers can Lifebloom/Beacon/Earth Shield/HoT him up, the tanks will "slowly" trickle down untill you heal him to safe lifetotals with a Divine or Holy Light, giving you some Holy Power for the effort, making the transition in spot raidhealing for a couple of seconds (untill the tank gets low again) easier. Exagerated example ofc.

    In response, we should ofcoarse get more AoE healing. I don't think two 30 second heals cut it in that regard. Healing Hands already has a "hidden" 10 second cooldown (as it is a HoT), I don't think we need another 20 seconds on top of that. I would like to see Light of Dawn as a long cooldown, very powerfull raidheal and Healing Hands as the more spammable AoE heal. And some proc would be nice, Glyph of Holy Light or Ancestral Awakening like talents.
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  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Elovan's Avatar
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    The Denounce talent is our way of being able to dps a little bit during downtime, though I agree that currently it's lackluster. As for the Beacon change, they're trying to scale back our tank healing power so that we're not the obvious best choice for tank healers. Tower of Radiance is a perfect compliment, since we'll need to heal the beaconed target occasionally to give them the full heal. I do agree though that our AoE heals need shorter cd's.

  7. #7
    On the paladin page it mentions Holy Mending which is a HoT placed on a target after HS crits. However i didn't hear any blues or even players comment on it. Is it implemented or does it even exist. Sorry if i missed this topic somewhere else

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Klera View Post
    I am kind of confused by the Denounce talent in the Holy tree, critical spells give us an instant cast, free exorsism spell. This might be to do with mana regeneration, we will have to see.
    Blizzard is giving all heal specs some way to do damage, at least spec into it. That makes leveling as a healer less annoying and it might be nice in overgeared content (off-DPS), PvP (bonus damage, like the current Disc Priest and some Tree Druids) etc. I don't think it will become a part of our raid spec.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 04:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkzen View Post
    On the paladin page it mentions Holy Mending which is a HoT placed on a target after HS crits. However i didn't hear any blues or even players comment on it. Is it implemented or does it even exist. Sorry if i missed this topic somewhere else
    It's a database bug. Holy Mending is the proc of the tier8-2piece set.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 04:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Klera View Post
    Just as well I started leveling a Priest, these changes fill me with nothing but fear and dread.
    Have you seen the Disc priest tree? In it's current state, it's healing is destined to be even more dull. Holy Priests might be nice for versatility, as always though
    Join Amicus, 10man progression raiding, but on a respectable 2day schedule!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkzen View Post
    On the paladin page it mentions Holy Mending which is a HoT placed on a target after HS crits. However i didn't hear any blues or even players comment on it. Is it implemented or does it even exist. Sorry if i missed this topic somewhere else
    Tier 9 set bonus I beleive.
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  10. #10
    So, I have a question. Maybe this has changed... but I seem to recall that Holy Light will be the "main" heal... average throughput/efficiency. Flash of Light will be fast/inefficient and Divine Light will be slow/big.

    So, most of the time, when things are normal... a holy paladin will be 'spamming' Holy Light, yes? Maybe not chain casting... but casting it repeatedly.

    If holy shock is the *main* way to build Holy Power, it would take 12 seconds to build up 3 holy power. (Holy shock, 6 sec CD, Holy Shock, 6 sec CD, holy shock). I suppose you could get up in melee range.. holy shock, CS, holy shock and have 3 in about 6 seconds, but....

    If we are needing to cast Holy Light in repetition... how will a holy paladin ever save up 3 holy power? It seems like there will be no way to save up for a big Word of Glory. I think it is a bad design to have Holy Power affect something that is spammed. For ret... it affects Inquisition (buff), Verdict (single target) and DS (aoe). This works well as none of them are in competition with each other.

    The current Holy HolyPower system seems like it would be as if ret built HolyPower by casting Judgment and spent it on CS... you CS more than you can judgment, so you're always staying low on HolyPower.

    Is the design intent for Holy Paladins really that they will only need to cast HolyLight every 12-15 seconds or so? Filling other GCDs with shock, shield, utility spells?

    If not and we are meant to cast it repeatedly, I really hope that they remove the HP buff from Holy Light

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sungamnori View Post
    So, I have a question. Maybe this has changed... but I seem to recall that Holy Light will be the "main" heal... average throughput/efficiency. Flash of Light will be fast/inefficient and Divine Light will be slow/big.

    So, most of the time, when things are normal... a holy paladin will be 'spamming' Holy Light, yes? Maybe not chain casting... but casting it repeatedly.

    If holy shock is the *main* way to build Holy Power, it would take 12 seconds to build up 3 holy power. (Holy shock, 6 sec CD, Holy Shock, 6 sec CD, holy shock). I suppose you could get up in melee range.. holy shock, CS, holy shock and have 3 in about 6 seconds, but....

    If we are needing to cast Holy Light in repetition... how will a holy paladin ever save up 3 holy power? It seems like there will be no way to save up for a big Word of Glory. I think it is a bad design to have Holy Power affect something that is spammed. For ret... it affects Inquisition (buff), Verdict (single target) and DS (aoe). This works well as none of them are in competition with each other.

    The current Holy HolyPower system seems like it would be as if ret built HolyPower by casting Judgment and spent it on CS... you CS more than you can judgment, so you're always staying low on HolyPower.

    Is the design intent for Holy Paladins really that they will only need to cast HolyLight every 12-15 seconds or so? Filling other GCDs with shock, shield, utility spells?

    If not and we are meant to cast it repeatedly, I really hope that they remove the HP buff from Holy Light
    You're underestimating holy shock. It's very powerful, even when you need to spam the tank with holy light, you'll be happy to put shocks in there. Also, if you have beacon on the tank, every heal you cast has a chance to give holy power.
    Volte 80 Frost DK--Cycloneduke 80 Holy Pally--Moardotz 80 Desto Warlock-- Dexterworgan 80 Assassination Rogue----Liadon 80 Feral Druid--Mumbles 70 Frost Mage--Bibleblack 70 Disc Priest--Dylli 70 DM Hunter--Krosa 70 Fury Warrior -- Slapntickle 70 Prot Warrior -- Okoi 80 Enha Shaman + 4 slave shamans multiboxed to 70 - Darksorrow EU PvP

  12. #12
    Field Marshal Naethigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sungamnori View Post
    So, most of the time, when things are normal... a holy paladin will be 'spamming' Holy Light, yes? Maybe not chain casting... but casting it repeatedly.

    If holy shock is the *main* way to build Holy Power, it would take 12 seconds to build up 3 holy power. (Holy shock, 6 sec CD, Holy Shock, 6 sec CD, holy shock). I suppose you could get up in melee range.. holy shock, CS, holy shock and have 3 in about 6 seconds, but....

    If we are needing to cast Holy Light in repetition... how will a holy paladin ever save up 3 holy power? It seems like there will be no way to save up for a big Word of Glory. I think it is a bad design to have Holy Power affect something that is spammed. For ret... it affects Inquisition (buff), Verdict (single target) and DS (aoe). This works well as none of them are in competition with each other.

    If not and we are meant to cast it repeatedly, I really hope that they remove the HP buff from Holy Light
    Where did you see that Holy Power is going to affect Holy Light in any way?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone Duke View Post
    You're underestimating holy shock. It's very powerful, even when you need to spam the tank with holy light, you'll be happy to put shocks in there. Also, if you have beacon on the tank, every heal you cast has a chance to give holy power.
    I'm not underestimating Holy Shock, I was just saying that if you are casting more holy lights than holy shocks, it will be eating up all of your holy power and you'll never have any saved up to use word of glory.

    But, I forgot about that Tower of Radiance talent..

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Elovan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naethigan View Post
    Where did you see that Holy Power is going to affect Holy Light in any way?
    Currently, or at least in the previous beta build, after using CSx3 (building up Holy Power) reduced HL's cast time by 33/66/100%.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sungamnori View Post
    So, I have a question. Maybe this has changed... but I seem to recall that Holy Light will be the "main" heal... average throughput/efficiency. Flash of Light will be fast/inefficient and Divine Light will be slow/big.

    So, most of the time, when things are normal... a holy paladin will be 'spamming' Holy Light, yes? Maybe not chain casting... but casting it repeatedly.

    If holy shock is the *main* way to build Holy Power, it would take 12 seconds to build up 3 holy power. (Holy shock, 6 sec CD, Holy Shock, 6 sec CD, holy shock). I suppose you could get up in melee range.. holy shock, CS, holy shock and have 3 in about 6 seconds, but....

    If we are needing to cast Holy Light in repetition... how will a holy paladin ever save up 3 holy power? It seems like there will be no way to save up for a big Word of Glory. I think it is a bad design to have Holy Power affect something that is spammed. For ret... it affects Inquisition (buff), Verdict (single target) and DS (aoe). This works well as none of them are in competition with each other.

    The current Holy HolyPower system seems like it would be as if ret built HolyPower by casting Judgment and spent it on CS... you CS more than you can judgment, so you're always staying low on HolyPower.

    Is the design intent for Holy Paladins really that they will only need to cast HolyLight every 12-15 seconds or so? Filling other GCDs with shock, shield, utility spells?

    If not and we are meant to cast it repeatedly, I really hope that they remove the HP buff from Holy Light
    I doubt they will make HS as the only way for Holy paladins to get Holy Power they can always make Divine Light or FoL (something that we cant afford to spam in cata)as a way to get more Holy Power

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Elovan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkzen View Post
    I doubt they will make HS as the only way for Holy paladins to get Holy Power they can always make Divine Light or FoL (something that we cant afford to spam in cata)as a way to get more Holy Power
    Currently we have a talent that has a chance to give us Holy Power when we directly heal the beacon. If it stacks with Holy Shock we have the potential to get 2 Holy Power with one spell.
    Last edited by Elovan; 2010-07-21 at 05:39 PM.

  17. #17
    Field Marshal Naethigan's Avatar
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    Oh I do remember this now, I'm pretty sure it was removed though in this last build we had.

    I dont believe they'll add HoPo generation to any of our heals other than HS. That would make the heal feel like we're supposed to use it more, which is what they were aiming for with HS in the first place, adding HoPo to another heal would force us into spamming that one all the more than any other.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzlebeard View Post
    I don't see the worry about a 50% Beacon. Yes, currently we are two tank healers. We are balanced around keeping two tanks alive and have "some" AoE healing by beaconing a tank and healing around when there is not second tank. But Beacon is currently waaaaaay overpowered.
    I have been playing a Holy Paladin forever and I made this post as soon as I saw the changes, since the way we have been healing since TBC has been engraved into me I completly forgot that healing in general is changing in Cata. I agree, if we see reduced damage on tanks, then 50% Beacon shouldnt be a problem to keep the tank up with bigger heals thrown in when large chunks of damage are expected. So I agree with you that Beacon the way it is would be overpowered, my original post was my heart getting the better of my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzlebeard
    Blizzard is giving all heal specs some way to do damage, at least spec into it. That makes leveling as a healer less annoying and it might be nice in overgeared content (off-DPS), PvP (bonus damage, like the current Disc Priest and some Tree Druids) etc. I don't think it will become a part of our raid spec.
    I was aware that some form of mana regeneration through damage was being introduced for other classes (I have tryed to stay away from too much information to keep Cata fresh when it is released), I assumed this was going to function along the same lines, if not, then yes this skill won't make it into the raid spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzlebeard
    Have you seen the Disc priest tree? In it's current state, it's healing is destined to be even more dull. Holy Priests might be nice for versatility, as always though
    Yeah Holy is definitely far more inkeeping for my playstyle, some of the new mechanics look incredably fun and are building on top of an already solid class.

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral Elovan's Avatar
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    We do still need something else to spend Holy Power on, just not any of our 3 basic heals, or at the very least not Holy Light.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klera View Post
    I was aware that some form of mana regeneration through damage was being introduced for other classes (I have tryed to stay away from too much information to keep Cata fresh when it is released), I assumed this was going to function along the same lines, if not, then yes this skill won't make it into the raid spec.
    Denounce currently says "any of your Holy spells" which includes Exorcism itself, coupled with Illumination proccing off ALL abilities, and their focus of getting us back into Crit, I'd say they're doing a decent job in that department for us.

    I'll certainly be taking Denounce anyway.
    Last edited by Naethigan; 2010-07-21 at 05:49 PM. Reason: Typos

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