Protection Discussion - Build 12539+

[Synthaxx]

This is a new thread for discussion on the new Protection Paladin Tree we saw implemented in beta build 12539. Please post all comments related to the tree here as the old thread is now merely a reference (although not locked).

Original thread - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ysm-Discussion

[Eurytos]

I like how they subtly changed the name of some abilities. Hammer of the Righteous is now Hammer of Righteousness. Just thought I'd mention that.

On to more important things. I really want to get Reckoning, and it seems that Blizz wants us to get it too. However, it is still only a chance to proc an extra attack, and furthermore its only after a block. I guess we'll see how good it is when more ppl get some testing going.

Another thing is the issue of Pursuit of Justice. This is one of those "intersting" choices Blizz always talks about. However, there are many other abilities we can spec into that will increase our dmg/threat and AoE tanking abilities if we decide not to get PoJ.


I've come up with a few different specs.

This is my PoJ spec.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...Na8A0i_,,12539

This is my single target threat spec.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...Nao834_,,12539

This is my AoE tanking spec.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...Nao834_,,12539

Ofc I havent even spec'd divinity in any of these. If healing is supposed to be more precise, then it maybe something we have to pick up to help out.

Compared to our ret counterparts(and possibly holy, i have little knowledge of them) speccing for Prot looks to be a lot of fun. There are definitely some "interesting" decisions that will be made. I'm looking forward to checking this stuff out.

Edit: One other thing I noticed was that Crit could possibly be something we might want on gear. Maybe a few pieces here and there to increase our threat, but considering the amount of talents we have that increase our crit or that can proc from a crit, it could be something to grab on a ring or cloak or reforge a stat we are not getting full use out of. With Consecrate being able to crit it could be a nice stat.

[Seltin]

I almost guarantee you'll have to spec into Divinity in Cataclysm. Plus, I'll be honest, not sure how I feel about most of your specs. Let me show you what I have;

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin#tpIpB3sx,,12539

The reason I didn't go too far into the ret tree is because there isn't that valuable of stuff for threat there, a lot of it is in Prot currently. Rule of Law doesn't seem to be that good of a talent for threat and FOR NOW I put those two points into Eye for an Eye because it SHOULD be a huge threat bonus if that damage that is redirected is done so as holy damage. If it doesn't, I'd go 2/3 into Crusade Judgements of the Pure is pretty obvious. More haste is more swings is more threat is more mobs beating on you is win.

Now, the last two points I was uncertain about. I chose Improved Lay on Hands based on a few things. For one, they are redesigning (or removing) forbearance. So, whether this means you can use Divine Prot immediate followed by Lay On Hands, I don't know, but I'm guessing that's the case. The 20% reduced damage could be a extremely useful for you to cast on yourself. This gives Prot Paladins 4 CD's they can use throughout a fight (Divine Prot, D-Guard, Ardent Guard, LoH).

btw, I pray they don't nerf D-Guard. That is some OP-ness there.

[Komati]

http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#sZIMhsbdMsrofhM

Eye for an Eye will be really good in the first tier and we have low avoidence. Bosses hitting for 40 - 50k means we'll deal 15 000 damage back, at trash this will be pretty good. Of course it will suck when we get enough avoidence.

Edit: Concecration with a 30s duration, passive damage with EfaE, I can work even less when tanking on my pally. Cataclysm will be even more awesome then I thought!

[Eurytos]

I'll give you Divinity, that is likely to be neccessary but 9% melee haste vs 30% increased dmg of CS and Hammer isnt even a contest. 30% increased dmg of 2 of our main abilities is likely to generate significantly more threat than a few extra melee swings per fight.

EfaE is weak. Its only a 10% chance to do dmg back to the attacker. I dont think bosses will hit fast enough to warrant that talent over Rule of Law. And a faster CD more dmg Judgment is ofc more threat than Imp LoH, though the dmg reduction is nice, we will have DProtection on a 1 min CD as well as DGuardian.

[Malthanis]

I may be in the minority here, but is anyone else dissatisfied with the new incarnation of Ardent Defender?

Also, no silence for Avenger's Shield? I'd like that back, or at least a way to get rid of the daze.

All in all, though, this should be pretty interesting.

[courtjester311]

I may be in the minority here, but is anyone else dissatisfied with the new incarnation of Ardent Defender?

Also, no silence for Avenger's Shield? I'd like that back, or at least a way to get rid of the daze.

All in all, though, this should be pretty interesting.

I have to agree with you here. Maybe they will force a glyph to get silence effect back. Also, AD procs on any hit that would have killed you. In this build it appears that it needs to be activated (another button press) in order to trigger instead of death. Not sure I like that.

Conversely I love them consolidating Divine Guardian. My confusion though is there is no info on if it has a cooldown, mana cost, etc. Its just instant and lasts for 6 sec. Wonder if I missed something.

[Seltin]

The fact that DGuard is a Defensive CD for Prot Pallies (and the raid) is pretty humorous tbh, but I love it. And DProt will be on a 2 min CD, not 1 min. The talent is now on a 5 min CD for Paladins unless specced into Sacred Duty which lowers the CD by 3 mins.

Alright, so I'm taking what you're saying into consideration and this is what I come up with as a spec (our collaborative minds working together here)

http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#scoZIMhsbdMsroch

Looking at Parses, I received 6189 DTPS from LK (as LK tank) on 25 man Regular LK. Now, I'm not a math genius, but based on the proc chance of EfaE, 3% (10% chance for 30% of damage) of the DTPS from the LK would be redirected to him. That's 185.67 DPS. Not substantial, especially if it's a non-specific type damage. But if that is Holy damage, that is a major amount of threat you're receiving for getting hit in the face, especially for long fights.

This is assuming EfaE doesn't, in the current build, do Holy damage. I'm pretty sure they'll change it so it will so it's more desirable for tanks to pick up. This gives you the threat from Crusade and Rule of Law as well as 3% haste on melee swings which will get you faster stacks of Corruption. The only I can think of subbing in and out would be Rule of Law would be Reckoning, but that would be situational based.

On a side note, I thought it would be amusing to have the boss at 1% health when he enrages, EfaE proccing and facerolling itself for 30% of that damage.

[Synthaxx]

Looks like the AS Silence is on by default;
http://www.worldofraids.com/topic/17...ladin-changes/

(Bibi will get me for that =S)

[Eurytos]

AD is still a problem. I'm fine with being able to activate the "self heal instead of death" part, only below 35%, but the passive dmg reduction that it currently gives should remain passive.

DGuardian is good in the way it has changed. It's essentially what most of us have been doing any way with a /cancelaura macro cancelling the dmg redirect part but keeping the raid wall.

I'm still not convinced on EfaE. I really would like to use it, truthfully, but 10% chance is just too low for me to spend the points in it. I did change a few things around and find a spec that i like that does have Crusade and JotP for the haste. It could be a nice place for talents.

[Malthanis]

Granted, health pools are supposed to be much larger, but I would assume that boss damage would scale as well. All things being equal, I doubt we'd have much time to hit AD with the health percentage restriction.

Another thing I wish they had kept from the previous build was the passive Holy Shield. Not only is it back to being active (but hey, no more charges to it), but it's tied to the awkward Holy Power mechanic that they've been kicking around.

Moving to the Holy Power mechanic, why are they trying to make us feel like we have combo-points? It seems about as half-baked as the Forbearance mechanic (which I hope they trash for all eternity).

Another thought: Will our TPS be balanced around the assumption that we'll keep Inquisition up? I hope not.

[Azshalorah]

Description on Holy wrath:

Sends bolts of holy power in all directions, causing [ 0.3% of Spell Power + 2401.81 ] Holy damage divided among all targets within 10 yds and stunning all Demons and Undead for 3 sec. 20% of base mana, Instant cast, 15 sec cooldown.

Wrath of the Faithful Talent:

Increases the damage by [10%/20%] and critical strike chance by [10%/20%] of your Holy Wrath spell.

With the way this reads, why wouldn't we take Wrath of the Faithful talent? Sure it doesn't stun anything but demons and undead however, it will do damage to EVERYTHING in range (even humanoids). Wouldn't this talent, if thrown into our regular rotation permanently, be a good threat boost?

Just thought I would ask since 90% of the builds in this thread don't have that talent. >.<

[courtjester311]

Looks like the AS Silence is on by default;
http://www.worldofraids.com/topic/17...ladin-changes/

(Bibi will get me for that =S)

Got it! The made it a prot specialization. I knew I was missing something, thanks!

[Gaffer]

btw, I pray they don't nerf D-Guard. That is some OP-ness there.

Divine Guardian is no way a finished talent. As it stands, it has no cooldown on beta and I can spam it every global if I wanted. Kind of leads me to believe that they just tossed it in for filler with this update and plan to rework it.

I feel like we need something different in terms of cooldowns. Divine Protection: 50% damage reduction. Divine Guardian: 20% damage reduction. Ardent Defender: 20% damage reduction (if under 35%). Hopefully, they turn Holy Shield into something that isn't so underwhelming.

[courtjester311]

Description on Holy wrath:


Wrath of the Faithful Talent:


With the way this reads, why wouldn't we take Wrath of the Faithful talent? Sure it doesn't stun anything but demons and undead however, it will do damage to EVERYTHING in range (even humanoids). Wouldn't this talent, if thrown into our regular rotation permanently, be a good threat boost?

Just thought I would ask since 90% of the builds in this thread don't have that talent. >.<

Thats probably because we didnt know it affected all targets within 10 yds and stuns just the demons and undead. I use Holy Wraith when the situation fits, but curse myself when I accidentally use it in a group of humanoids because of the mana dump. If it's true that it damages all targets (even mechanical?) then it may be a good idea to put some points in it. Would be helpful if they clarified the tooltip on it or a lot of ppl will skip on it.

[Malthanis]

Description on Holy wrath:


Wrath of the Faithful Talent:


With the way this reads, why wouldn't we take Wrath of the Faithful talent? Sure it doesn't stun anything but demons and undead however, it will do damage to EVERYTHING in range (even humanoids). Wouldn't this talent, if thrown into our regular rotation permanently, be a good threat boost?

Just thought I would ask since 90% of the builds in this thread don't have that talent. >.<

I think it's because (from what I've read so far) Wrath is going to have a fixed damage output, divided by the number of targets. It will really depend on how the damage scales if we want to pick it up at all. And I hope they swap out that SP(blech) for AP.

@Eurytos:
I actually like the sponge mechanic of DGuard. Granted, I chain it with my Corroded Skeleton Key and DProtection, but it's great for soaking up a lot of raid-wide damage (my most recent was Frostbite #9 in a rather fail VoA10).

@Seltin:
You've got me thinking... If EfaE is indeed Holy damage, think of the power of it if you can keep Inquisition up? Add AW to the mix, and you've got quite a bit of damage return (provided it procs and is Holy damage). It isn't a perfect plan, since you're depending on a 10% proc rate, but that's what this discussion is about, right?

[Azshalorah]

Thats probably because we didnt know it affected all targets within 10 yds and stuns just the demons and undead. I use Holy Wraith when the situation fits, but curse myself when I accidentally use it in a group of humanoids because of the mana dump. If it's true that it damages all targets (even mechanical?) then it may be a good idea to put some points in it. Would be helpful if they clarified the tooltip on it or a lot of ppl will skip on it.

Honestly, it's just because of the way it's worded for cata vs the way it's worded now. At this time it specifically states "to do holy dmg and stun undead and demons", where as in the new cata wording it states "Holy damage divided among all targets within 10 yds" with a secondary affect of "stunning demons and undead."

So, yes you are right in the fact that there needs to be some clarification in the tooltip or at least a possible blue posting on this.

---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 08:33 PM ----------

I think it's because (from what I've read so far) Wrath is going to have a fixed damage output, divided by the number of targets. It will really depend on how the damage scales if we want to pick it up at all. And I hope they swap out that SP(blech) for AP.

And as far as this goes, it would work just like the rest of the aoe's in game. They are all capped for damage, but imo doesn't mean it wouldn't be a hell of a threat boost against aoe'ers especially. But I do tend to agree with you.. We will all have to wait and see how it pans out.

[Seltin]

Description on Holy wrath:


Wrath of the Faithful Talent:


With the way this reads, why wouldn't we take Wrath of the Faithful talent? Sure it doesn't stun anything but demons and undead however, it will do damage to EVERYTHING in range (even humanoids). Wouldn't this talent, if thrown into our regular rotation permanently, be a good threat boost?

Just thought I would ask since 90% of the builds in this thread don't have that talent. >.<

Because, as far as we know, Cataclysm isn't Wrath of the Lich King. It's not supposed to be "OMG AOE LOLOLOLOL SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM" when it comes to trash. Unless Blizz is lying to us, which wouldn't shock me, I don't see a need to spec into this.

[Azshalorah]

Because, as far as we know, Cataclysm isn't Wrath of the Lich King. It's not supposed to be "OMG AOE LOLOLOLOL SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM" when it comes to trash. Unless Blizz is lying to us, which wouldn't shock me, I don't see a need to spec into this.

Correct, but that doesn't mean there won't be situations for aoe tanking. They never said they were doing away with it altogether. They just wanted to reduce it by alot and force people to use cc's.

[Seltin]

Divine Guardian is no way a finished talent. As it stands, it has no cooldown on beta and I can spam it every global if I wanted. Kind of leads me to believe that they just tossed it in for filler with this update and plan to rework it.

I feel like we need something different in terms of cooldowns. Divine Protection: 50% damage reduction. Divine Guardian: 20% damage reduction. Ardent Defender: 20% damage reduction (if under 35%). Hopefully, they turn Holy Shield into something that isn't so underwhelming.

If you spec into LoH's, there's another CD for you.

---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 08:38 PM ----------

Correct, but that doesn't mean there won't be situations for aoe tanking. They never said they were doing away with it altogether. They just wanted to reduce it by alot and force people to use cc's.

Still shouldn't be a reason to spec into it since it's so situational. Maybe for an Offspec.