Retribution Discussion - Build 12539+

[andy_mitchelluk]

@Appel
Pro. Shame you didn't bother to read my latter reply. And in all fairness it could be a typo. Like the 30 minute cooldowns on stuff.

It's beta stage. It can't hurt for me to hope the numbers will increase can it?

And you just fell in to your own 70% for not reading the rest of the thread.

Back on topic, I really hope they fix Exorcism. It would be great to have it in our rotation. It's only flaw is the long cooldown.
We need a proper rotation and they seem to be overlooking abilities we already have in our spell book.

[The Good Captain]

OFF TOPIC: The English language is pretty flawed and full of poor syntax. Although my favorite line of ambiguity is still "The boy saw the girl in the park with the telescope." Where is that telescope? In the park, with the girl, or used by the boy (perv).

"Time flies like fruit flies."

"I looked out the window where the stars heavenlies bodies intertwine."

OFF TOPIC: The language itself is not. Those whom employ the language abuse it, after idiomatic expressions, of course. Grammar and punctuation give solidity and form to liquid expressions and malleable verbiage. Sentences and meaning. They're the tools, form the damn clay. Which brings most back to kindergarten arts'n crafts, sadly, and not forward.

Back on topic:

Back on topic, I really hope they fix Exorcism. It would be great to have it in our rotation. It's only flaw is the long cooldown.
We need a proper rotation and they seem to be overlooking abilities we already have in our spell book.

After talents, its CD is reduced to four seconds, according to what I derive from their tooltips. And don't respond to the trolls, it's an awfully long way down.

[sturzengel]

Swift Retribution is now a single rank talent increasing melee and ranged attack speed by 20%.

Seriously? Like I know it was gimp before, but this...

[Ronark]

Seriously? Like I know it was gimp before, but this...

It is to even out the Class buffs.

[Boubouille]

I screwed up on the Retri changes and forgot to add the new talents yesterday. Ninja-added the following talents, sorry for the stupid.

• Zealotry - Your Crusader Strike generates 3 stacks of Holy Power per strike for the next 30 sec. Requires 3 stacks of Holy Power to use. / Instant, 30 min cooldown
• Wrath of the Lightbringer - Increases the critical strike chance of your Holy Wrath ability by 25% and reduces the cooldown of your Avenging Wrath ability by 0.5/1 sec. /
• Rebuke - Interrupts spellcasting and prevents any spell in that school from being cast for 4 sec. / 10 Mana, 5 yd range, Instant cast, 10 sec cooldown
• Templar's Verdict - An instant weapon attack that causes a percentage of weapon damage. Consumes all applications of Holy Power to increase damage dealt:
  1 Holy Power: 55% Weapon Damage
  2 Holy Power: 125% Weapon Damage
  3 Holy Power: 225% Weapon Damage / 20% of base mana, 5 yd range, Instant cast
• Rule of Law - Increases the critical strike effect chance of your Crusader Strike and Holy Light by 5/10/15%.

[Riek]

Zelotry - 30 min cd... isn't that bit too long?

[Kangodo]

Typo, I guess it will be 3 minutes.

Also, boubo, we knew that all along

Judgement: Unleashes the energy of a Seal to judge an enemy for Holy damage. Judged targets move slower and cannot flee. Attacking a judged target has a chance of healing the attacker.

Woow, so.. finally.. I can reach my pvp target!

[Evilution]

Thanks Boub! and indeed, the 30 minute CD on a final talent in a tree is just not doable, it´s a number they just made up before testing it out properly.

[The Good Captain]

Woow, so.. finally.. I can reach my pvp target!

No, GC clarified on that somewhere, I think, can't recall where and when. It's just a reiterated Judgement of Justice. Same thing, can't exceed 100% movement speed apparently means they 'move slower'. I could be wrong, though.

Also, yeah, thanks Boub'. Could'a sworn those were there, though.

[GJH]

Woow, so.. finally.. I can reach my pvp target!

"Move slower" is a cap on run speed, as it is today.

(forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26227742991&sid=1&pageNo=1#15)

And now we don't have a magical dispel. Quite frankly, the lack of attention to this issue is making me rather pessimistic (not that I wasn't always before). Retribution looks as if it will be somewhat weak in Cataclysm pvp. Frost and similar specs have about 6015 ways to cast Nova and other forms of CC.. I don't see how we will be reaching them. I'm definitely not saying we need Charge or anything like that, but if Judgement has such a small range and we're still relying on the same old JoJ+PoJ method, casters are going to be extremely tough.

Yes, I'm fully aware we're in beta so it's a far from finished product but if the problem isn't discussed, it's not always as obvious. I'm also entirely aware the game isn't balanced around 1v1, but that does not mean Blizzard should leave us with no possible chance versus a caster. It's always been fairly difficult versus anyone who knows how to keep us at bay but the content produced so far only makes this harder. What good is an interrupt if we can barely use it?

[Ecstatic]

Although I'd like a Tirion-style leap to the enemy target causing X% weapon damage and possibly increasing speed for a while, I fear for it being overpowered.

As it stands paladins got it good with the exception of stun removal and cleanse.
I really hope something's done to adress our survivability.
And a gap closer aint helping in that matter.

[Meracalis]

I think people need to keep in mind that paladins are quite obviously still very much works in progress. And maybe stop trying to apply all of these new toys in the current PvP/PvE environment. Try to think ahead to Cata, when level 85 health pools will be upwards of 50-60k, at the least.

They said they want Guardian of Ancient Kings to function differently for each spec. Perhaps when a Retribution paladin summons their guardian, it will fly over and snare the target for us?

Also not sure if it's been pointed out, but we didn't really lose the ability to heal on AoW procs. It was removed because it's redundant with the ability to use Word of Glory via Holy Power.

[Ronark]

I screwed up on the Retri changes and forgot to add the new talents yesterday. Ninja-added the following talents, sorry for the stupid.

Your Paladin overlords will forgive you this time... next time, maybe not.

The talents were already added to the talent calc- unless you mean you forgot to add them to the frontpage or something.

[The Good Captain]

I think people need to keep in mind that paladins are quite obviously still very much works in progress.

They said they want Guardian of Ancient Kings to function differently for each spec. Perhaps when a Retribution paladin summons their guardian, it will fly over and snare the target for us?

Also not sure if it's been pointed out, but we didn't really lose the ability to heal on AoW procs. It was removed because it's redundant with the ability to use Word of Glory via Holy Power.

I want to throw my pony at them. 'The Paladin's charger is consecrated with the light, blessing it with remarkable power and enabling it to dash at and collide with its target at incredible force, rendering the charger unconscious and dilapidated. The charger falls on the target, breaking every bone in the target's body, and rendering them immoblile for 6 seconds. Damage received by the target breaks the effect.'
---
Removing the heal rendered AoW redundant. There's almost no reason it ought not be instant-cast now, if it's to be in our rotation, I'd be more worried it will either be cast aside or clash so heavily with our rotations as to render it even toxic. Their logic employed in defense of implementing the cast-time, though justified at the time, is outdated. Or AoW could do more. Formerly, it buffed CS and offered instant Exorcisms and Flashes. Perhaps either free WoG's, something else, or they add something to the talent to make it more valuable, or attractive to us.

[Bytes]

Did they remove Seal of Command?

I can't find it anywhere on the Cataclysm version of Wowhead, or anywhere else, did Blizzard remove it or is it just disabled temporarily?

[Fiddlesnarf]

They said they want Guardian of Ancient Kings to function differently for each spec. Perhaps when a Retribution paladin summons their guardian, it will fly over and snare the target for us?

Are you sure you want to have to rely on a 3min cooldown for a snare? We need a gap closer on a short cooldown (45secs or less), its that simple.

Did they remove Seal of Command?

I can't find it anywhere on the Cataclysm version of Wowhead, or anywhere else, did Blizzard remove it or is it just disabled temporarily?

They took the talent out and replaced it with Seals of Retribution- Your damaging Seals now also deal 15% weapon damage each time you swing, and your Seal of Righteousness now hits up to 2 additional targets.
http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/85126/

[Ronark]

Did they remove Seal of Command?

I can't find it anywhere on the Cataclysm version of Wowhead, or anywhere else, did Blizzard remove it or is it just disabled temporarily?

Yes it was removed. SoR can be talented in the Ret tree to do an additional 15% Weapon damage on hit and to chain to 2 targets.

[GJH]

They said they want Guardian of Ancient Kings to function differently for each spec. Perhaps when a Retribution paladin summons their guardian, it will fly over and snare the target for us?

I believe this is quite a common thought among most people following the development of Retribution, I know I've considered this as a possibility, yet I just can't see it being effective. It will likely be a 3/5 minute cooldown or even longer. Summoning a pet to cast a temporary snare seems both unrealistic and wasteful. Earlier in the beta someone posted about an ability that forced your target to run towards you, as you moved towards them. If it wasn't that, it was something similar. On a 1/1 and a half minute cooldown or so, I could see that being very useful and fairly balanced (probably even with a slightly higher cooldown).

[The Good Captain]

Did they remove Seal of Command?

I can't find it anywhere on the Cataclysm version of Wowhead, or anywhere else, did Blizzard remove it or is it just disabled temporarily?

Gone, and replaced with Seals of Retribution, a seal modifier that primarily affects SoR and SoV. SoR is now SoRC, technically (make it so).

--EDIT--

Dang, beat me to it again.

[Bytes]

Yes it was removed. SoR can be talented in the Ret tree to do an additional 15% Weapon damage on hit and to chain to 2 targets.

Damn, that sucks, thanks for answering so fast.