Doomguard and Infernal-some analisys

[volrat]

So, the new shiny guardians spells hit the beta,and i'm almost happy with these most anticipated changes; on these, however, there should be a little more work, expecially on the talent that empower them:

These spells are going to be extremely situational, given theyr long and shared CD, giving a 2 points talent that makes them last longer seem very useless, given the fact it will be even more situational, because u're assuming that the guardians will live that far, or the fight will last that long; this will lead to make the talent a flop, with none ever taking it.

It would have a lot more sense to make them empower the guardians, giving them 10/20% more damage and health, leaving the duration as it is, so that way u'll have the same numbers(10,20 secs are even more in theory) but adding more effecient gain.

More, I would like a lot to see a different CD for them, say a 5 min. to Infernal and a 10 to doomguard, with a minor CD to not let 2 guardians be toghether on the fiel, and finally let us rain infernals in arenas.

One last thought on BoD, i have to understand the summoning part of it, if this will be in addition to other guardian summon, and i would love to see in demonology tree, say in impending doom, an added chance to proc the guardian.

Overall, this part is going to be a good flavour addition to the class, even if, in the end, these wont change or affect very much our dps( apart from BoD, it has to be seen) given the long CDs involved.

[adynn]

Actually, infernal has great aoe damage, and a free DG for single target is not to be scoffed at. I think they didn't want to increase their power, as they are very strong at the moment. I just tried my infernal out on a 80 target dummy, and it's aura ticked for 750~ every two seconds, with it hitting for 1.5k again every 2 secs, The doomgaurd is even stronger on a single target too.

[volrat]

Actually, infernal has great aoe damage, and a free DG for single target is not to be scoffed at. I think they didn't want to increase their power, as they are very strong at the moment. I just tried my infernal out on a 80 target dummy, and it's aura ticked for 750~ every two seconds, with it hitting for 1.5k again every 2 secs, The doomgaurd is even stronger on a single target too.

You'll agree w me that an increased duration talent is still very unlikely to be used.

[adynn]

I quite like the increased duration, as it will be a dps lift. While it may not be as good as a +% dmg to them, I'm still very happy with their current power (tbh I expect them to be nerfed).

[Tya]

You'll agree w me that an increased duration talent is still very unlikely to be used.

Why would a talent that increases their damage by 20% be more used than a talent that extends their duration by nearly 50%?

[adynn]

Why would a talent that increases their damage by 20% be more used than a talent that extends their duration by nearly 50%?

I assumed he meant a damage increase that would be equivalent in total damage compared to the duration increase. While it would be preferable, I'm quite happy with the talent as it is.

[icecreamtruck]

The Doomguard and Infernal is a bit underpowered compared to shaman elementals. elementals last for 2 min, and they dont share CD. Doomguard only last 45 sec and infernal 1 min, and they share CD..

[Aesahaettr]

The Doomguard and Infernal is a bit underpowered compared to shaman elementals. elementals last for 2 min, and they dont share CD. Doomguard only last 45 sec and infernal 1 min, and they share CD..

True, but Shaman are giving up one of their totems to summon the elemental. For example, a elemental shaman might, if hes the only Ele shaman in the group, lose 280 SP (and not just lose himself the SP, lose the entire group the SP) if they use Fire Elemental Totem over Totem of Wrath.

Does that make up for difference between their elementals and our demons? I don't know. But it's worth thinking about.

[adynn]

I don't know that they are really comparable in that regard icecreamtruck. Infernal is very similar to the fire ele, however I'd wager is significantly more powerful atm. The doomgaurd doesn't really fit either totem, as it's single target damage with some utility (dispels) thrown in.

[volrat]

Why would a talent that increases their damage by 20% be more used than a talent that extends their duration by nearly 50%?

The fact is, with a 10 min cd you'll be using them mainly in boss fights that will last min 2 mins; in BGs the story is different, cause, if u ever cast inferno in bg u should know, Infernal ends quiet quickly, being focused by everybody.
So, i think that the best way a talent may improve them should be in effectiveness or accessibility, not in duration.

[icecreamtruck]

True, but Shaman are giving up one of their totems to summon the elemental. For example, a elemental shaman might, if hes the only Ele shaman in the group, lose 280 SP (and not just lose himself the SP, lose the entire group the SP) if they use Fire Elemental Totem over Totem of Wrath.

Does that make up for difference between their elementals and our demons? I don't know. But it's worth thinking about.

actually if you check out the ele sham talent "totemic wrath", any fire totem will give you 10% sp. and the earth totem.. theres always a dk with the strength/agility buff anyway

[adynn]

The fact is, with a 10 min cd you'll be using them mainly in boss fights that will last min 2 mins; in BGs the story is different, cause, if u ever cast inferno in bg u should know, Infernal ends quiet quickly, being focused by everybody.
So, i think that the best way a talent may improve them should be in effectiveness or accessibility, not in duration.

Even if they do focus your infernal (40k health btw), it'd still be worth it, as they are leaving you relatively free, making it easier to freecast. If they don't focus it, then it runs around with an aoe aura that actually hurts. Also, think of the duration extending talents as more pve focused, with some benefit to pvp.

[volrat]

I know inferno is just good, and i am not QQing, mine Are suggestions to' make the talent affectin them better.
From some reply Made here by those so lucky to have a beta key, i argue that actual numbers must be quiet impressive, but my observations Are not on that, just thinkin that a time enhancing talent is not going to' be used, and 10 mins shared cd is a damn long one for a 45 sec/ 1 min guardian spell that can even be' killed.

I love the whole idea of guardian spells, my suggestions Are just to' improve them, and tryin to be constructive now that finally, after 5 years, Blizzard is tryin to' fix them.

[adynn]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were QQ'ing, I get that you have issues, I was just trying to communicate why I don't share them. In pvp the use of the duration talent may be less important, however I think the talent is aimed towards pve, with only some pvp utility. Also if we improve them too much, we may become reliant on them (hi enh shammies), I prefer the happy medium.

[Mixelphlick]

I think they are a bit more equatable to the mages water elemental (pre endless water). Its a short term dps boosting pet except that you have a little less granular control as you already have a permapet of your own. They make alot of sense to me and i think in pvp with fights that can often get up to 5-10 mins a duration buffing talent isnt too bad. I would almost say that a cooldown reducing talent would be better/more balanceable that damage or duration. If they tweaked it right they could get it so that you can get about 2 of them on a long fight and 1 on shorter fights with damage numbers tweakable from there. My curiosity is more with BOD. Does it proc them regardless of cooldown? And if it does can it proc more than one? If so thats probly going to need nerfing but if not i think they are at a pretty solid place with basically just some numbers tweaking necessary at this point.

[allforone]

As someone who leveled a mage as frost in TBC, you had control over the water elemental then too.

I do however hope that our guardians will have decent uptime, and moreover, I hope that all "guardians" will be affected by buffs in cata.

[Deleted]

The Doomguard and Infernal is a bit underpowered compared to shaman elementals. elementals last for 2 min, and they dont share CD. Doomguard only last 45 sec and infernal 1 min, and they share CD..

shaman elementals don't share a CD because they are meant for completely different purposes. earth elemental is for when you are in an instance or soloing and you need an emergency tank. fire elemental is for when you need some extra DPS, like putricide phase 3, sindy phase 3, festergut or other long burn phases. warlock guardians are both meant for similar goals, namely extra DPS on either single target or AOE.

[ComputerNerd]

There is the possibility maybe of some degree of control, since the valkyr's spawed from the nibelung staff do follow pet attack orders.

[Mixelphlick]

As someone who leveled a mage as frost in TBC, you had control over the water elemental then too.

I do however hope that our guardians will have decent uptime, and moreover, I hope that all "guardians" will be affected by buffs in cata.

I have a feeling guardians arnt going to be affected by buffs or gear as they are basically just static damage boosts they dont need to be buffed by gear where a permanent pet needs to scale with the character because its equivalent damage is assumed in balancing.

[adynn]

I have a feeling guardians arnt going to be affected by buffs or gear as they are basically just static damage boosts they dont need to be buffed by gear where a permanent pet needs to scale with the character because its equivalent damage is assumed in balancing.

Having abilities and cds that don't scale with our gear is just bad practice, one which they seem to be trying to remove in cata. I dearly hope that our t12 doomgaurd is significantly more powerful than our t10 dg.