4-5 evis?

[Forgetme]

Oh,herro. Long story short im a ex-mutilate rogue who got made to go combat to be the guilds combat buff bitch. I miss mutilate. And I can't remember the last time I raided as combat. If ever. My guild has now geared me with abunch APR gear and its acually helped alot. I pull about 16k+ on festergut and our mutilate rogue does about 17k. I know mut does more single target but 1k more? Anywho givin that I decided I should check out my dps rotation abit better. So I used googled and im reading over and over again how rogues are doing 5 point evis 3.3.5 I have been doing 4 pointers. I figured with my SS glyph 5 point ones would be a dps loss if my glyph was too proc. Am I wrong on this? I feel pretty dumb right now just checking this now rather then the two monthes ago when I joined and was told I would be the guilds possible combat rogue.

[legoctf]

Personally I use 5evis and thats what Ive always used, I think youd be better off with the 5p just for the dmg and then assuming it crits even more dmg. Test both out and see what happens, thats your best bet

[Forgetme]

Personally I use 5evis and thats what Ive always used, I think youd be better off with the 5p just for the dmg and then assuming it crits even more dmg. Test both out and see what happens, thats your best bet

Yea, thats what I was thinking. try 5 pointers on the next festergut fight I do. I forgot combat is RNG and thats why I hated it. Since I cant rely on that RNG, I probaly would be better off with 5 pointers. Ho-hum ty.

[sabrelime]

In an evis only cycle you are shooting for 5pt evis's even with the SS glyph,however, in every gear set it is actually more optimal to run a low-rupture cycle even if you are speced evis. It is played exactly the same but you always put a 5pt rupture up when it's off.

If you want a major dps change you should spec the rupture spec and swap your SS glyph for rupture and run a high rupture cycle. You'll need a spreadsheet to tell you exactly how your rotation should be though.

[ironfart]

If you want a major dps change you should spec the rupture spec and swap your SS glyph for rupture and run a high rupture cycle.

swapping SS glyph for rupture would be stupid.
Just swap eviscerate for rupture since u wont be using eviscerate alot.

[Forgetme]

Yea in my previous guild our combat rogue tryd switching to a rupture rotation and did less on bosses that raid. He wasnt impressed and went back to evis spec. So I don't really want to try a rupture rotation. And my spreadsheet does say evis is better for me.

[sabrelime]

swapping SS glyph for rupture would be stupid.
Just swap eviscerate for rupture since u wont be using eviscerate alot.

The glyphs you should be using as a serious rading rogue as the evis spec should be ToT,Killing spree, and Sinister strike.

As the rupture spec you should use ToT,Killing spree, and oh yeah rupture. As the rupture spec having extra cp's doesn't help you all that much because you only have enough time for one evis in almost any given situation.

Almost no rogue uses the Evis glyph because it is far more raid dps to use the ToT glyph.

Yea in my previous guild our combat rogue tryd switching to a rupture rotation and did less on bosses that raid. He wasnt impressed and went back to evis spec. So I don't really want to try a rupture rotation. And my spreadsheet does say evis is better for me.

Your spreadsheet probably does not have the tier 8 4-set enabled so critting ruptures are in place. Just unhide the calcs sheet and set the value for it to 1. Even if you are evis speced using a low rupture cycle is a dps increase in 99% of gear setups.

Playing the high-rupture cycle is slightly-moderately more difficult so it could be a fault on his part.

[Kinettik]

The glyphs you should be using as a serious rading rogue as the evis spec should be ToT,Killing spree, and Sinister strike.

As the rupture spec you should use ToT,Killing spree, and oh yeah rupture. As the rupture spec having extra cp's doesn't help you all that much because you only have enough time for one evis in almost any given situation.

Almost no rogue uses the Evis glyph because it is far more raid dps to use the ToT glyph.



Your spreadsheet probably does not have the tier 8 4-set enabled so critting ruptures are in place. Just unhide the calcs sheet and set the value for it to 1. Even if you are evis speced using a low rupture cycle is a dps increase in 99% of gear setups.

Playing the high-rupture cycle is slightly-moderately more difficult so it could be a fault on his part.

Who would ever get rid of a SS glyph? Not only is combat an RNG whore, but you want to make it worse by eliminating a major source of CPs? KS and SS are the most DPS gaining glyphs available for Combat. And i dont know where you get your numbers from, but Rupture, in an Evis build will never be higher DPS assuming correct gearing for the build. Theres a reason all top Rogues use Evis exclusively.

[sabrelime]

No top combat rogues do not use evis exclusively, hell the first kill of Heroic LK 25 man had two rogues as rupture-combat. EJ has extensive posts about this very thing, I'm not going to try and explain it all to you myself when the info is all there and they have already proven Rupture is a dps increase to use in almost all situations unless something is going to die before it ticks out.

The SS glyph is good for the evis spec, but not that great for the Rupture spec. Go to a rogue spreadsheet right now and enable 4 piece tier 8 and I guarantee you on 99% of rogues the evis cycle will switch to a low rupture cycle even in an evis spec.

Go to WoL right now and all those combat rogues you see will have some of their damage from rupture.

The ironic part about everyone thinking that Evis spec is the best spec now is that it took forever to convince everyone that evis spec was the best until they enabled critting ruptures at all times.

I'm not talking out of some kind of speculation or gut feeling either I know this to be a fact about rogues and the combat specs, and as you can see from my armory I'm not some random ass rogue with no knowledge of the game trying to tell you about it. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...h&cn=Sabrelime

[Kinettik]

No top combat rogues do not use evis exclusively, hell the first kill of Heroic LK 25 man had two rogues as rupture-combat. EJ has extensive posts about this very thing, I'm not going to try and explain it all to you myself when the info is all there and they have already proven Rupture is a dps increase to use in almost all situations unless something is going to die before it ticks out.

The SS glyph is good for the evis spec, but not that great for the Rupture spec. Go to a rogue spreadsheet right now and enable 4 piece tier 8 and I guarantee you on 99% of rogues the evis cycle will switch to a low rupture cycle even in an evis spec.

Go to WoL right now and all those combat rogues you see will have some of their damage from rupture.

The ironic part about everyone thinking that Evis spec is the best spec now is that it took forever to convince everyone that evis spec was the best until they enabled critting ruptures at all times.

I'm not talking out of some kind of speculation or gut feeling either I know this to be a fact about rogues and the combat specs, and as you can see from my armory I'm not some random ass rogue with no knowledge of the game trying to tell you about it. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...h&cn=Sabrelime

Now, i did go through the WoL 25 Heroic top Combat Rogue parses for each boss and guess what i found. 1. Exactly 1 Rogue used a Rupture glyph and it happened to be on PP, where i can see it being an advantage with all the movement and time off boss in that fight. So, please tell me why this is if your rupture build is superior? All these top Rogues dont know what theyre doing? Lets put it this way, if Aldriana, spec'd double combat doesnt use this glyph why would anyone else?

Like i said before, SS and KS are the top 2 DPS glphs avail for combat, period. ToT, Evis, FoK are all situational and can be utilized better on different fights. Rupture isnt better at end game levels, whether you think so or not.

Now, Rogues that spec into Blood Spatter over Evis will use Rupture in their rotation, but not the glyph. Also, most of them double spec Combat because fights with low/no movement will always favor a Evis build. High movement fights may benefit from Rupture, but again, out of the top Combat Rogues in WoL Parses, 1 used the Glyph (PP) and 1 other used Rupture in his cycle, yet still used SS glyph.

Your MS is Mutilate i see, and you have 2 Rogues in your guild that are spec'd combat, yet neither of them use Rupture Glyph in thier Blood Spatter build, why would you?

[Deleted]

4pc T8? Did you say that with a straight face? Yes, cause we all know how many people use that set bonus now right? Using items that are 1 year out of date to prove a theory is bad.

rupture can crit without any bonus but that´s not included in the spreadsheet so you have to enable the t8 4p bonus to fix that problem

[Kinettik]

rupture can crit without any bonus but that´s not included in the spreadsheet so you have to enable the t8 4p bonus to fix that problem

Yeah, i wasnt paying attention to what he was refering to when i posted, hence the deletion of that line from my post.

[sabrelime]

Now, Rogues that spec into Blood Spatter over Evis will use Rupture in their rotation, but not the glyph. Also, most of them double spec Combat because fights with low/no movement will always favor a Evis build. High movement fights may benefit from Rupture, but again, out of the top Combat Rogues in WoL Parses, 1 used the Glyph (PP) and 1 other used Rupture in his cycle, yet still used SS glyph.

Ok I think you need to think about how stupid what you just said here is. How in the fuck would a fight where you DON'T MOVE favor evis? If rupture does more damage why wouldn't you benefit from using it over evis on a single target fight?, and how in the world would you be better off using an attack like rupture that does less damage on a fight where you have to switch targets vs just front loading all your damage with evis? This is like a complete flip-flop of the argument used to say evis was worse then rupture when people started doing ToGC.
If rupture does 8k damage and evis does 7.9k damage, rupture is going to win period, and if the opposite is true no amount of moving will make rupture better.

Most rogues don't like to use the rupture glyph because it is a lot easier to do the rotation with it and Aldriana had mixed feelings about it. As far as a spreadsheet goes though using rupture vs SS in a high rupture cycle, rupture will always win out, and the ss glyph will not yield nearly as much dps*, but in an evis build it is worth more then 100+dps. The difference is not enormously significant, but rupture is better even if only be a little. There is a reason why some of the top rogues are top rogues, and that is gear, one piece of gear could easily gap the difference between using a rupture glyph or not using one, so people who are min-maxing as best they possibly can would have no chance of winning without the gear required and at this point no one is all that concerned with min-maxing if they already have full 277's they don't have any reason to bother with it.

One of the biggest reason why you may not go with a rupture spec is that you do not have a consistent source of mangle, at the high end gear levels an evis spec using a low rupture cycle without mangle is better then using a high-rupture cycle without mangle, but if mangle is available it is still better to go high-rupture.

*The reason the SS glyph is not that great for rupture builds is due to the nature of the rotation. Your trying to maximize rupture uptime in the 97% and above range. The spreadsheet will tell you how big your SnD's should be, and it will also tell you when to use an evis if you have enough cps to use them before you gain CPs for your next rupture. Even with the SS glyph in almost all situations you are not going to gain enough CPS to allow for an extra evis into a rotation, unless you are under Adrenaline rush and even then a non-ss glyphed spec can get two or more in as well.

[Kinettik]

Ok I think you need to think about how stupid what you just said here is. How in the fuck would a fight where you DON'T MOVE favor evis? If rupture does more damage why wouldn't you benefit from using it over evis on a single target fight?, and how in the world would you be better off using an attack like rupture that does less damage on a fight where you have to switch targets vs just front loading all your damage with evis? This is like a complete flip-flop of the argument used to say evis was worse then rupture when people started doing ToGC.
If rupture does 8k damage and evis does 7.9k damage, rupture is going to win period, and if the opposite is true no amount of moving will make rupture better.

Hmm, lets see. Take PP for example, putting up a full 5pt Rupture, then switching to Goo and being back on PP before it falls wouldnt be a DPS increase? Maximum uptime while off target wouldnt make it worth it? And its only you that claims Rupture is a DPS upgrade over Evis, no one else. You said WOL parses would show otherwise and you were wrong yet you still maintain youre smarter than them. Hell, your not even the best Rogue in your raids, and your preaching about a build that you yourself dont use or have the gear to sustain.

Most rogues don't like to use the rupture glyph because it is a lot easier to do the rotation with it and Aldriana had mixed feelings about it. As far as a spreadsheet goes though using rupture vs SS in a high rupture cycle, rupture will always win out, and the ss glyph will not yield nearly as much dps*, but in an evis build it is worth more then 100+dps. The difference is not enormously significant, but rupture is better even if only be a little. There is a reason why some of the top rogues are top rogues, and that is gear, one piece of gear could easily gap the difference between using a rupture glyph or not using one, so people who are min-maxing as best they possibly can would have no chance of winning without the gear required and at this point no one is all that concerned with min-maxing if they already have full 277's they don't have any reason to bother with it.

One of the biggest reason why you may not go with a rupture spec is that you do not have a consistent source of mangle, at the high end gear levels an evis spec using a low rupture cycle without mangle is better then using a high-rupture cycle without mangle, but if mangle is available it is still better to go high-rupture.

So youre saying the top Rogues are only good cause they have the best gear? Pretty bold statement there. Im pretty sure, the Top rogues are there because of skill, and would easily out DPS a Rogue in better gear thats not as good. Gear =/= Skill. Granted, gear helps push top numbers, but their skill is what pushes them over the rest. Also, you claim that they dont use the Glyph cause it would be easier with it? And that since they have good gear they cant be bothered to have the right gear for the right build (so you claim)? Your posts are getting more and more out in left field.

*The reason the SS glyph is not that great for rupture builds is due to the nature of the rotation. Your trying to maximize rupture uptime in the 97% and above range. The spreadsheet will tell you how big your SnD's should be, and it will also tell you when to use an evis if you have enough cps to use them before you gain CPs for your next rupture. Even with the SS glyph in almost all situations you are not going to gain enough CPS to allow for an extra evis into a rotation, unless you are under Adrenaline rush and even then a non-ss glyphed spec can get two or more in as well.

The why do all top Rogues still use it, even in a Blood Spatter build? Are you that convinced youre better than them and know more than they do?

[Flaw]

How about the both of you search EJ for the post Aldriana made regarding the rupture build and use of the ss glyph, this whole argument should never have happened.

[sabrelime]

Hmm, lets see. Take PP for example, putting up a full 5pt Rupture, then switching to Goo and being back on PP before it falls wouldnt be a DPS increase? Maximum uptime while off target wouldnt make it worth it? And its only you that claims Rupture is a DPS upgrade over Evis, no one else. You said WOL parses would show otherwise and you were wrong yet you still maintain youre smarter than them. Hell, your not even the best Rogue in your raids, and your preaching about a build that you yourself dont use or have the gear to sustain.


So youre saying the top Rogues are only good cause they have the best gear? Pretty bold statement there. Im pretty sure, the Top rogues are there because of skill, and would easily out DPS a Rogue in better gear thats not as good. Gear =/= Skill. Granted, gear helps push top numbers, but their skill is what pushes them over the rest. Also, you claim that they dont use the Glyph cause it would be easier with it? And that since they have good gear they cant be bothered to have the right gear for the right build (so you claim)? Your posts are getting more and more out in left field.


The why do all top Rogues still use it, even in a Blood Spatter build? Are you that convinced youre better than them and know more than they do?

AGAIN if a 5pt evis does more damage then a 5pt rupture why the heck would you bother throwing up a rupture to begin with?? All your doing is padding yourself a little on recount, your actual damage would still be lower if evis did more damage, and again your arguing that Evis is stronger so what's the point of the damn rupture? Using an evis or a rupture take the same amount of time, so rupture has no benefit vs just frontloading with an evis that does more damage. Fail argument is fail.

Actually quite a few people would probably agree with that statement considering neither combat nor mutilate take any great skill to play. Heck I'm even 102 placed on heroic festergut for mut, and the people in my guild are spread-sheeted to do 500+dps over me so of course I'm going to lose to them. For a single target fight there is not some elite rogue players out there who know some secret special techniques to do more dps, and fights like PP have a lot of variation to them, and some rogues probably don't even switch to the oozes so they get higher dps numbers to begin with. I don't use the build as my main spec but I use it when I need to be combat when the others aren't around.

The difference between using the rupture glyph or the evis glyph as you get higher and higher ArP decreases so yes they,in many cases, would not be bothered with using it, but some high end rogues do use it and it is still better in many cases.

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-p...4/#post1614982 this page has a short discussion on the topic, make sure you read all of it. They even mention the cycle instability that the SS glyph can bring due to you trying to throw up extra evis's at possibly the expense of losing rupture uptime.

There have been other times that even "top" rogues haven't been bothered to mess with certain things, including the weapon swap spec(which pulled ahead of combat in ToGC but most rogues stayed combat anyway) and weapon swapping for combat, and the gemming of haste because of it, and sometimes people don't know something. Mongoose got stealth nerfed and no one knew about it for awhile and people for who mongoose had a higher spread-sheeted value were underpreforming because they did not know yet that it had been nerfed.

[Kinettik]

AGAIN if a 5pt evis does more damage then a 5pt rupture why the heck would you bother throwing up a rupture to begin with?? All your doing is padding yourself a little on recount, your actual damage would still be lower if evis did more damage, and again your arguing that Evis is stronger so what's the point of the damn rupture? Using an evis or a rupture take the same amount of time, so rupture has no benefit vs just frontloading with an evis that does more damage. Fail argument is fail.

The statement was assuming you used a Rupture build for this fight, a fight that i said was better for rupture than Evis potentially.

Actually quite a few people would probably agree with that statement considering neither combat nor mutilate take any great skill to play. Heck I'm even 102 placed on heroic festergut for mut, and the people in my guild are spread-sheeted to do 500+dps over me so of course I'm going to lose to them. For a single target fight there is not some elite rogue players out there who know some secret special techniques to do more dps, and fights like PP have a lot of variation to them, and some rogues probably don't even switch to the oozes so they get higher dps numbers to begin with. I don't use the build as my main spec but I use it when I need to be combat when the others aren't around.

Correct, neither spec is hard. My point was equally geared players on the same fight, the better skilled one would win everytime. Less user error. Which brings me to the next point:

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-p...4/#post1614982 this page has a short discussion on the topic, make sure you read all of it. They even mention the cycle instability that the SS glyph can bring due to you trying to throw up extra evis's at possibly the expense of losing rupture uptime.

The "Cycle Instablity" that occurs and the potential loss of DPS because of it, again, is user error. If people arent smart enough to know what to do when their abilities proc, then they arent very good. I can however see the issue with it for some people, and those people are the ones that use the Rupture Glyph for a more stable, i can close my eyes and DPS build cause they know exactly what will happen.

[sabrelime]

Even with the rupture glyph the spec is still more difficult to play then the regular rotation.

I mean do you understand now that the rupture spec is a higher dps spec then running a normal spec because rupture outdamages evis, it's just not everyone bothers with it and it even goes further into the SS vs rupture and rupture is usually better. I mean they even say that in the post.